Lying to Attract a Mate

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"Pretense" is making something appear to be true that isn't, whereas I would define an "outright" lie as directly claiming something to be true that isn't. Perhaps I'm unnecessarily splitting hairs on the semantics but I think that the reason this discussion has become confusing is because we're not being nearly precise enough with the terms.



I would never enter a long-term, intimate romantic relationship with a woman who doesn't know that I'm autistic. I could never become that close to somebody without disclosing that to them. But if I scare somebody away who might have otherwise accepted me because I told her, right off the bat, that I'm autistic without having a chance to present the qualities of myself that do make me a good, desirable partner, in that case I have again misrepresented myself.

(I realize I never made it clear what I meant by "at the beginning of a relationship". Here, relationship doesn't mean anything remotely as deep as a long-term, intimate romantic relationship. I disclose my disability to all of my good friends, let alone women who I am considering that deep a relationship with. She'd know within the first date or two if I thought we were really clicking.)

I would definitely want her to have all of the information that she needs to make a decision to commit to me because I would want to have all of that kind of information too. But if she has already walked away long before we've ever even gotten to that point, it's completely moot.

To summarize it very briefly: I don't want to be dismissed before I get a chance to show my better qualities and I think that disclosing my disability right off the bat, before she has gotten a chance to get to know me even slightly beyond surface impressions, is an incredibly good way to get dismissed without being given that chance. It's inviting a misunderstanding when I really want her to get to understand me fully.

This brings us back to my point about investing/expecting too much in/from a relationship and blaming the other person when it all goes tits up. As far as I can see, the OPs problem isn't really about AS but her tendency to dream that every man she meets is her Prince Charming and that they're destined to live happily ever after. The OP is in love with being in love.

Common sense suggests that what a person says at the beginning of a relationship will be very different to their actual behaviour over the course of the relationship. It's about getting to know a person over time, learning how to understand their behaviour (i.e. not what they say, but what they do) and then deciding whether or not you think the relationship is worthwhile. Without that assessment, you shouldn't invest any heavy emotion or serious commitment.

I find your use of the expression "tits up" demeaning and inappropriate.



@EnglishInvader, I suggest getting your eyes checked immediately - "as far as you can see" doesn't seem to be past the end of your own nose. I'm in love with being in love - because I encourage people pursuing a romantic relationship to do so with integrity? I'm in love with being in love because I state that the absolute consequence of deceit is a lack of trust which leads to a lack of intimacy? Your conclusion is laughable.



No, that's precisely the kind of self-handicapping behavior I'm warning against: don't pretend to be something you're not in order to entice an emotional or physical or romantic involvement. You won't be able to sustain the lie, and you'll cause an enormous amount if unnecessary heartache.



Again, if the basis on which you entice someone to get to know you is a facade, then all the time invested in the relationship is wasted. Dating someone requires an investment - why would I want to make any investment in a man who doesn't meet my basic criteria for a mate? Why do you think it reasonable that any potential partner has to spend time playing "detective" to find out if you are who you say you are at a very basic level? If you're willing to lie to a woman about something as important as a disability, the only thing she'll know with any certainty is that you're willing to lie to her to get what you want. Yeah, I'd be dying to have you teach that moral code to my kids.

I get the sense that this argument is jumping between extremes while I'm trying to demonstrate a happy medium.

It's a huge jump from anything I've said to claim that HopeGrows has delusions about love. What she's saying is reasonable and all I'm really trying to demonstrate is that I don't see it as being entirely black and white. People have greatly varying definitions of "lying". To some people, it's lying even to omit something that is true. Others think that it's only "lying" if you say or imply something that is untrue. There is lying that does harm and there are "white lies" that don't.

If people want to define my approach as "lying", that's fine. But then the next question is this: is what I'm doing wrong? If I'm sure to disclose my disability when I feel it has become necessary because I'm growing closer to the other person (and usually well before getting to the point of being about to enter an intimate romantic relationship with that person) but have decided to withhold it in the very early stages of getting to know people in order to avoid undue discrimination and dismissal, is that acting without integrity? In that case, the implied suggestion would be to wear the disability on my sleeve and only interact with people who don't react badly to that (correct me if I'm wrong). I personally think that's incredibly sub-optimal because people are more willing to invest effort to further understand people that they've already decided that they like.

I am exactly the same person whether or not you know that I have Autism. Knowing that fact might change your perception of me but it doesn't at all change who I am because the traits and behaviours show through in my interactions. If I could suppress those "weaknesses" perfectly all of the time, I would by definition not have the disability and the entire issue would be moot. I want only to present my true self in a way that encourages others to want to interact with me and get to know me better, at which point disclosing my disability can become the next step in making the friendship even deeper. Or they might actually dismiss me at that point, in which case they were not someone I wanted to become friendly with anyway. But in my opinion it all has to be given a fair chance and getting dismissed off the bat because of bad stereotypes is not going to achieve that.

Okay, let's make it really simple: a lie is a lie, and lying is wrong. Here's an example: you date a woman for months and months, sharing your hopes and dreams with her. One of those important dreams is having children of your own some day. You decide she's the one and ask her to marry you - at which point she reveals that she's infertile. Now she never told you she could have children - and you never asked her. She's young and she gets her period every month, so you assumed she was fertile....and all the times you told her how much you wanted your own kids, she never said she couldn't have them. So she never out and out lied to you, but on a scale of 1 - 10, how completely f#cked over would you feel? Is the confusion clearing a bit?

As to the rest of your response, I will tell you that there is nothing about you - not money, or vacations to exotic places or muscles or a big d!ck - that will outweigh a lack of trust. But if you are basically compatible with a woman, you treat each other with affection and respect - and that woman knows she can trust you completely - there will be nothing that is hotter, sexier or more appealing to that woman than you. And every lie you tell jeopardizes that outcome.

If you have decided that lying is always wrong, no matter what the lie and what the context, we'll never agree. We'll have to agree to disagree.

But I think that you're also grossly overestimating how long I would let any kind of relationship with anyone go before disclosing my disability. Months and months? Also, even after months and months I wouldn't have directly asked if she wanted to and could have children, even though it's a critical deal breaker for me? This hypothetical construction is a bit weak at the seams, but I'll play ball.

It's a matter of time, the depth of the relationship, and what I've invested into it. If she told me after the first couple of dates, I'd feel not at all "f#cked over" because I invested almost nothing emotionally and I can't really blame her for not wanting to disclose that right away because it's an incredibly serious and personal matter. If it had gone on for a couple of years, I would feel very much "f#cked over" because by then I've invested a great deal more emotional capital. You said "you decide that she's the one and ask her to marry you". So, whatever period of time that takes (for me that would probably be years), if I've gotten to that point I would absolutely feel terrible because there's simply no good reason to withhold something that important for that long a period of time. That I would not accept. But you assume that I would let anyone get even near that point with me without disclosing my disability.

Just because she wants to wait a bit to drop the big bomb on me that might be a deal-breaker because she is enjoying my company, doesn't mean that she is acting without integrity and is not trustworthy. Not everything has to be said or worked out entirely up front. Every relationship grows over time and there is a good and bad time for discussing everything. If during that process you find out that you won't be compatible for the long haul, the responsible and reasonable thing to do is to end the relationship. Ideally, that happens sooner rather than later. In reality if that is going to happen it will never happen right away. Some things you just don't learn about somebody until the relationship grows a bit.

It's a common enough English colloquialism that's used to describe something that didn't go as well as you would have liked. "Belly up" or "everything went pear shaped" are similar terms. Sorry for any offence.

For the record, I have never lied about my disability or made any attempt to conceal it. My girlfriend has known and understood it from day one.

I also apologise for the assumptions I made about your personal affairs. I have a tendency to do that and it was out of line.

I will make no further posts in this thread.

Part of me doesn't see too much of something ethically wrong of what logic is saying here. Honestly if I described to a woman that I was dating (not in a relationship with) that I had problems socializing, misinterpreting body language, repetitive behavior and interests, or I have major physical clumsiness (dyspraxia sometimes associated with AS). Versus saying i'm on the autistic spectrum, whats the difference?

Also I personally would describe who I am when getting to know someone. So while I find something very horrible about lying, I think AS itself can be seen generally as just a label. So if he doesn't tell her until she's serious about him it shouldn't matter. The problem with labels and misconceptions is that even good people have them. There should be some leeway for him of him not immediately having a reveal of when he has AS letting her get to know him without the bias of a label.

The only thing wrong I can see would be that I believe its genetically inherited (or can be) so if she wants kids thats a huge problem, but for me kids wouldn't be discussed until we were serious anyway.

That said, I disagree with lying in general and also agree that people shouldn't change themselves in order to be with someone and that it will never work for any long term relationship.

Last edited by Greatsharkbite on 08 Dec 2010, 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yes, it is acting without integrity because you're only willing to disclose your disability when you feel it has become necessary. Can you honestly tell me that your decision to disclose is going to be made without your best interests at heart? How can you determine when its "become necessary" to any woman you're dating? Aspies don't read people very well, and you certainly can't know what's going on in anyone else's head (NT/Aspie doesn't matter) - how does that qualify you to make that decision?

I met a man online once. I was a little heavier than I wanted to be at the time, but I didn't lie to him at all about my looks. He responded to my disclosure by saying he didn't care - the phrase he used was that he wanted to go "Discovery Channel" on me, right then and there. I found that attitude so endearing, I just melted. He had issues of his own, but he had enough going for him (smart, funny, interesting, attractive to me, a decent job) that I gave him a chance. But the idea that he actually was attracted to me regardless of what I looked like, was a huge part of my attraction to him. I thought he was deep....I thought he cared more about my character and my ideas and thoughts than he did about the size of my ass - and because of that, I jumped in with both feet.

It hurt me terribly when he dumped me a short time later. He made up some lame excuse which I didn't buy, and eventually admitted that it did matter what I looked like. As a matter of fact, his criteria for physical beauty in a woman was pretty straightforward: if I didn't look good in a bikini, he wasn't interested.

So why did he lie in the first place? I don't know....I think he had just gotten out of a bad LTR and was looking for an ego boost - and I was convenient. I'm sure he's forgiven himself. I'm sure he's told himself it was just a little lie, and everybody does it, and I was just someone he met online, so what's the big deal? The big deal is that he never wanted me. He always knew he was going to dump me, but I didn't have a clue. I believed him and I trusted him and I thought we were both trying to build something real. So how was I supposed to know he was lying? Give him a lie detector test? He even provided pics of his last ex...I don't think a lot of guys would want to see her in a bikini, and I was definitely prettier....so I believed him. Maybe it wasn't even his ex - how would I know? And the really interesting part is that he never saw a picture of my body - never. We broke up, got back together, broke up, and he never saw a picture of my body. Yet he was incredibly sure that I wasn't attractive enough for him. And I was just insecure enough that I believed that it was my fault. And to this day, he's been happy to let me believe that the body he never saw is the reason we're not together. Hee-larious.

My point is that you don't know - you can't know - what one little lie you tell (either overtly or by omission) is going to be the lie that "flips that switch" in a woman you're dating. One day you're just a nice guy with potential, and then you tell that little lie....and suddenly her heart goes wild because you said the thing she's been waiting forever to hear. Too bad its not the truth.

The irony of my cautionary tale is that now I do look good in a bikini (which had nothing to do with him). Even today, the issues he brought to the table wouldn't have stopped me from giving him a chance - but the lying absolutely would.

So you can equivocate about "white" lies and "real" lies and semantics and all the rest, but you'll be gambling with someone else's heart. And I can guarantee you she won't agree the gamble is worth it.

Last edited by HopeGrows on 09 Dec 2010, 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You brought up the issue of children, so you understand that could be a problem for any woman dating an Aspie who wants kids (by the same token, it might not be a problem - it depends on the woman).

Honestly, dating an Aspie is not the same as dating an NT. I make that statement as an NT woman who has dated NTs and Aspies. It would be better for all involved to disclose your diagnosis sooner rather than later. There will be aspects of your behavior that she doesn't understand, you'll need time alone, you may have a meltdown - honestly, it will only help your relationship if you provide her with a context to understand you.

The bottom line is that you could share all of the characteristcs you've described with an NT, and dating you would be a very different experience. I'm not saying a better or worse experience - but a different one.
I just don't recommend handicapping her and/or your relationship by keeping her in the dark about your needs.

Last edited by HopeGrows on 08 Dec 2010, 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

In a sense, you always are, and they are always gambling with yours. There's always a risk being taken because we can't read each other's minds, NT or autistic, and so we can't know all of the factors that will make the relationship work or not work right away. Also, there are things about ourselves that we may not necessarily omit on purpose. If you don't know something about yourself, you certainly can't tell your partner about it and yet it could be the very thing that breaks the relationship. Often, we might not even realize the things that we do that are deal-breakers to other people. To make things even worse, people change over time. If you get into a relationship, there's always a very real chance that it isn't going to work and that it could hurt, sometimes a little and sometimes a lot. Preferably you find that out that it isn't going to work sooner than later so that it doesn't hurt as much.

It's perfectly possible (although highly unlikely) that, in your anecdote, that man actually was being honest at the time. Maybe he really did believe what he said at that time and then he realized later on that he actually wanted something different. But you go on to say that he never wanted you. Is that what you deduced? What he said? If he said it, does he believe that's true? Is it actually true or did he just think that the change in his tastes must mean that he actually wanted something different the whole time? I think that sometimes we lie to ourselves and that much of the time that we're doing it we might not even realize that we're doing it. I think you're grossly oversimplifying things by extrapolating from a small number of anecdotes of your own experience and your own analysis thereof.

You've also validated my point about undue discrimination by making assumptions about my ability to understand how somebody feels about me and thus what the appropriate time is to disclose my diagnosis. Even if I am somewhat poor at reading people, I work with the information I have and do my best to represent myself properly and treat others with respect. Autism is not actually as huge a factor in my interpersonal relationships as it once was, particularly because of my hard work in overcoming the obstacles it presents to me. The typical reaction to me disclosing my diagnosis to somebody I've become close with is "oh? I wouldn't have guessed unless you told me." There is nobody in my life who has liked me and then, after my diagnosis was disclosed, has decided that they don't want me in their lives anymore. That includes two women that I was previously in long-term romantic relationships with (those ended for other reasons). Usually, by the time I bring it up, they have gotten an idea of what sort of person I am, with or without the "label" for it. How important is my diagnosis as a piece of information in determining whether or not you want to pursue a romantic relationship with me? If it's not of crucial importance, why must I potentially handicap my ability to form relationships with others by disclosing it immediately?

In a sense, you always are, and they are always gambling with yours. There's always a risk being taken because we can't read each other's minds, NT or autistic, and so we can't know all of the factors that will make the relationship work or not work right away. Also, there are things about ourselves that we may not necessarily omit on purpose. If you don't know something about yourself, you certainly can't tell your partner about it and yet it could be the very thing that breaks the relationship. Often, we might not even realize the things that we do that are deal-breakers to other people. To make things even worse, people change over time. If you get into a relationship, there's always a very real chance that it isn't going to work and that it could hurt, sometimes a little and sometimes a lot. Preferably you find that out that it isn't going to work sooner than later so that it doesn't hurt as much.

It's perfectly possible (although highly unlikely) that, in your anecdote, that man actually was being honest at the time. Maybe he really did believe what he said at that time and then he realized later on that he actually wanted something different. But you go on to say that he never wanted you. Is that what you deduced? What he said? If he said it, does he believe that's true? Is it actually true or did he just think that the change in his tastes must mean that he actually wanted something different the whole time? I think that sometimes we lie to ourselves and that much of the time that we're doing it we might not even realize that we're doing it. I think you're grossly oversimplifying things by extrapolating from a small number of anecdotes of your own experience and your own analysis thereof.

You've also validated my point about undue discrimination by making assumptions about my ability to understand how somebody feels about me and thus what the appropriate time is to disclose my diagnosis. Even if I am somewhat poor at reading people, I work with the information I have and do my best to represent myself properly and treat others with respect. Autism is not actually as huge a factor in my interpersonal relationships as it once was, particularly because of my hard work in overcoming the obstacles it presents to me. The typical reaction to me disclosing my diagnosis to somebody I've become close with is "oh? I wouldn't have guessed unless you told me." There is nobody in my life who has liked me and then, after my diagnosis was disclosed, has decided that they don't want me in their lives anymore. That includes two women that I was previously in long-term romantic relationships with (those ended for other reasons). Usually, by the time I bring it up, they have gotten an idea of what sort of person I am, with or without the "label" for it. How important is my diagnosis as a piece of information in determining whether or not you want to pursue a romantic relationship with me? If it's not of crucial importance, why must I potentially handicap my ability to form relationships with others by disclosing it immediately?

Ick, sorry about the double post. =(

Yes, so how about if we agree that it will lessen the risk dramatically if we don't lie about our desires, abilities, needs, and intentions? Sound like a plan?



But clearly when deception is involved, the "chance" that is isn't going to work becomes certainty that it is going to work, doesn't it?



Oh no, you're right. It's "pefectly possible" that a middle-aged man didn't realize that all the women he'd dated prior to me had to look good in a bikini in order for him to be interested in them, and he just woke up one day and "realized" that looks didn't really matter to him. And then when he got tired of me he magically realized that he only wants women who look good in bikinis. Of course, that doesn't really explain the pic of his ex, as she was neither attractive, nor did she look like she'd be attractive in a bikini. But that's really the crux of the problem, @LogicallySound - liars lie. Unless you want to spend your life with someone trying to figure out when they're lying and when they're telling the truth, I'd advise against being a liar, and/or being with a liar.



Spoken like someone who's scarily skilled at rationalization.



Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but ask yourself the following: who lived the experience I've described: you or me? Who's more qualified to extrapolate my own life experiences: me, or some stranger who's reading things I've written over the internet?



You cannot understand how someone feels about you in the early stages of a relationship: you cannot know all that they know, or all of the experiences that make them who they are. You cannot know how you affect someone you've only started dating - your impact on another person is only revealed over the long term. Not even NTs have that knowledge of each other, and the problems Aspies have with theory of mind makes it harder for them to get their arms around the whole idea of "walking a mile in someone else's shoes." So I'm sorry, but you can't know when it's best for any potential mate to know the truth about you - you can only guess at when you think it's best for you that they know the truth about you.



Because it is of crucial importance. You have a disability that impacts the type of partner you are, the type of father you may be one day, your potential children, your ability to earn a living, your ability to cope with stress, your ability to grow and mature over the course of a relationship, etc. It's not just an inconvenience - it's an issue that both partners have to be equally committed to working with and understanding if the relationship is going to be healthy and happy in the long run. Happy, healthy, long-term relationships are based on honesty and trust and respect. You can't have one without the other.

You did and you're more qualified to know. I even admitted that, I think (by admitting that my analysis of the situation is unlikely to be true). However, based on the information that I had, I don't think that what I described is impossible. You very likely know something I don't but I think that what I've presented as a possibility is perfectly plausible based only on what you've written. I've used this possibly plausible explanation to illustrate that everything needs to be analyzed in its full context and that you are oversimplifying the complex interplay of ideas and issues at work in interpersonal relationships.

What you are saying is perfectly rational, and my entire goal here has been to point out that there are more possibilities than you've described and that it's not as cut and dry as you seem to be insisting that it is.



You're insisting that I'm incredibly defective without having interacted with me on a personal basis and knowing very little about me at all. For example, my earning potential as a web developer is really quite good; it's much better than the average in my age bracket and more than enough to provide for me and a partner. My salary has gone nowhere but up throughout my career and I've proven myself very capable of effective professional networking. And you know nothing about my ability to cope with stress, to grow in relationships, or any of the things you mention. And all of this while ignoring the fact that it is possible to know all of these things about me without having to put a label on them that implies I'm defective because it will all show through in my actions and behaviours anyway. As I've been saying this entire time I am never trying to pretend to be something that I'm not.

This is the core thing that I've taken offence to or I would've stopped this whole exchange and agreed to disagree with you long ago.

I'm sorry that you've been burned before but don't project that on to me. Autism is a spectrum precisely because it affects people in a large variety of ways and I, for one, don't appreciate being painted with such incredibly broad strokes. All I've ever tried to do here is draw out and expand on the nuances and complexities of issues that you seem to insist on generalizing because you got burned by somebody who, from your perspective, was incredibly dishonest and irresponsible. You've seemingly decided that this, and precisely this, is the entire explanation for all of the problems that people on the spectrum are having with their relationships with neurotypicals.

Generalization is not a far throw from discrimination, and the way that you have callously commented on my abilities and qualities is plenty of proof of that.

Might have to be another topic dedicated to this debate, I think the general consensus now is that lying to attract a mate is wrong.

Lying imo is sheer dishonesty. Which could be to sell yourself as something you aren't, or to lie about how much you make in a year.

Lying by omission (Undeterminable so far in this debate by how long before you're required to give a prospective love interest a notice that you have AS) seems like a bit of a stretch and a different thing altogether.

If you admit the standard is to disclose immediately, then ask why? There are problems with people in general that rival if not surpass AS particularly depending on the person.

Plus, AS is generally unknown to the majority of people, should I have a seminar describing it ahead of any appealing traits that could define a person more. A lot of people with AS can infact function normally without any assistance or it being a "Burden" that a couple undertakes together.

My bringing kids into the equation is because I see where you're coming from, but not having "I have AS" be the first words to sell yourself isn't being disingenious. I'm not talking about saying it after you've slept with someone, i'm talking about saying it when you take her out for a cup of coffee for the first time.

People in general are so far from perfect that it'd snugly fit into a category of flaws about your partner that they themselves may be ignorantly unaware of.

I do get the importance of disclosure, probably because it'd feel so awkward with them finding out later, but the timing itself (Prior to a real relationship) is negligible, its something personal to be pretty honest.
It in many cases is a limitation or a struggle to utilize certain abilities and tools that others take for granted.

I can understand lying, sleeping in the same bed as someone who lied to me would make me sick. But if it comes to personal preference, i'll take doing things in a timely (non procrastinatory) manner and save my own feelings over costing a woman a few hours of going out on a date with me which she possibly got a free dinner out of.

Anyway there is a middle ground here.. I can perfectly argue why I should disclose AS as soon as possible also, but if the pros and cons are debatable, it'll always come down to personal preference.

Anyway, I felt kinda strongly about this, I feel this topic is immensely useful and practical and that people who aren't honest, will suffer great difficulty in keeping a relationship together. I don't want to turn this into a debate either.

So, I apologize.