so if you didn't feel like you had to get a girl....

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Aaaaaand the point goes to Boo.

Yes, but I have no time, energy, or interest in doing so. For various reasons (mostly relating to my job) I prefer to preserve anonymity on the internet.

I don't know if that's analagous to sexual assault, Boo. You participated willingly, but didn't care for the specific method. I think the "willing participant" part is key.

My first sexual experience was with a guy I had been dating for 6 months or so when I was 16. We routinely had makeout sessions with plenty of groping, but there was never any penetration, and I always told him I was not okay with penetration until I was older, much older (I was absolutely TERRIFIED of getting pregnant at that age).

One night he bought a bottle of champagne and got me to try it. It tasted good, like soda pop, so I ended up drinking a few glasses and getting seriously loopy. Consequently, during our making out session that night, my inhibitions were much lowered, and before I knew it, things had gone much farther than I was comfortable with. I think I might have even passed out at some point, because I do not remember how my clothes got removed. The next thing I knew, he was starting to penetrate me. I struggled and shouted and tried to push him off, but was in no condition to succeed.

Needless to say, it was extremely painful and unpleasant for me, but because he was my "boyfriend" I didn't feel I had the right to complain to anyone. I broke up with him after that (once I sobered up), and didn't tell anyone about it for years. Because of societal norms at the time, I assumed it was my fault for "asking for it."

As I've gotten older and become more comfortable talking about sexual matters, it is remarkable how many women have had a similar experience. I actually feel lucky that my experience was not at the hands of a trusted family member, as is the case with altogether too many women.

A sexual act without consent is, among other things, an act of betrayal. If a woman can be sexually assaulted against her wishes by a trusted family member or boyfriend or friend of the family, how do you suppose she's going to feel about someone laying hands on her without permission, especially someone she's just met?

I've never had gobs and gobs of friends, and overall, probably more male friends than female friends, but of the women I have been friends with (or close acquaintances) during my life (rough guess, would be about 125-130 women, including co-workers with whom I became friendly enough to exchange confidences), almost all of them have had a similar experience. Only a few of those experiences were told to other people at the time they happened, and only a tiny percentage of those were reported as sexual assault. Based on my personal experience and that of women I know personally, the rate of such occurrences is nearly 100%.

Eureka, your case is a typical case of rape while intoxicated .
This is entirely difference case, and it is has nothing to do with sexual inexperience, even adults might be tricked fall for that.

Btw, is there a female apsie on this board who didn't have a boyfriend at 15-16 like most teens?

Sorry, but the difference is very noticeable compared to guys, I can't help it. Sadly often turn out be abusers, not something to be envious of.

I had some dates at 16-17--but I didn't have a serious girlfriend until I was 18. I looked quite young, and I acted young, so girls didn't go for me, despite the fact that I went for girls.

Girls tend to "mature" faster than boys. It's understandable that a 14-year-old girl wouldn't want to date most 14 year-old guys. The (especially) physical maturity level is so much different for the genders at the 12-14 year old level. There are some 12-year-olds who even attain adult height and secondary sexual characteristics.

There's less difference between 15-year-old boys and girls--but there are still some differences.

Girls "start out" younger because they mature younger.

By 18, things pretty much even out.

Oh gosh, Boo. It hadn't occurred to me how far from understanding a guy might be about these things.

What you describe is why the idea of "enthusiastic consent" is important. No, it's not good to push people to do things they're iffy about, sexually. For exactly the reasons you describe, and particularly when you're talking about young and inexperienced people. If it was something you'd been thinking about doing for a while, and were curious and enthusiastic about, then -- well, maybe it would've turned out to feel unpleasant, but it would've been very much your choice.

What you describe, though, is also much more active than what I describe, where things are moving along quickly -- because the guy's moving them that way -- and the young woman's too surprised and inexperienced to really know whether she wants this or not, would be right too object or not, whether she "owes" it to the guy because she let him start, or just feels overwhelmed. And she doesn't say no, doesn't know what she should do, so she does nothing and just sort of dissociates, emotionally. (Much child sexual abuse goes this way, too.) And afterwards, when she can get herself back together, she knows very clearly that she *did not want* it, and was in fact traumatized by it.

Which, again, is why it's so important to ask, and get consent, before doing. Rather than blustering about and trying to put up a legal defense. The idea is not to harm people, yes? Be respectful? Engage in genuinely consensual sex?

In my case, incidentally, I didn't scream and struggle. I said "no" once, as in "No, I don't think I want any broccoli", not "NO, STOP, YOU RAPIST" - because after all we'd been having a nice time, and it hadn't occurred to me that anyone might rape me -- and then all of a sudden he was inside me. And doing something odd. I'd never had sex before and didn't know what it felt like, and I was so shocked that I didn't do anything, he was just very...driving straight ahead.

And yep, that's rape. You might be surprised how often that sort of thing happens.

Oh come on peeps,. all women are angels and all men demons.
Its just the way it is, till women out law men and only use them for baby making and heavy labor.
get over it,

I have read in this thread or at least an allusion to this idea as well, and Boo even mentioned his side of the story.

Girl and Guy are kissing and making out because they want to. Girl asks guy to go down on her. While he is not comfortable with the idea, he agrees and does it anyway. Later on, he regrets that he did this. Instead of taking responsibility, he then blames her and accuses her of rape. Turn the tables and you have a position that I have dealt with. A girl in the past (not my gf) blamed me for something that she agreed to do, simply because she came to regret that it all happened too soon. There was no alcohol involved either. I left her alone because she asked me to. This isn't the girl who cheated on the boyfriend either (that I referred to previously), but I certainly felt betrayed. I found out later on that she was with her ex the day prior to this incident and spent the night. I believe she put me in a dangerous position.

Me and the gf had a discussion about this once. She feels its unfair to the guy to take all responsibility if girl agrees to do something with him, then regrets it later. I do agree with her on that.

And now we've returned, full circle, to "what constitutes consent?"

[quote="The_Face_of_Boo"]Btw, is there a female apsie on this board who didn't have a boyfriend at 15-16 like most teens?

Sorry, but the difference is very noticeable compared to guys, I can't help it. Sadly often turn out be abusers, not something to be envious of.[/quote

I did not have a boyfriend at 15 or 16. At 18 years of age,after a 3 week stint as a playboy bunny at the denver club,[ no.I did not apply. It's a kindof long story] I had my first boyfriend,first kiss, first handholding, first everything.

Your story is entirely different than mine, I didn't say no, I contently acted upon her request.

The new world common sense thing to do (if your a male), is not to worry about it, let the women take the lead, tell you what they want and when, otherwise don't bother unless you want to be accused of something... So much for that go getter that knows what he wants.

Women complain about the aggressive males when its someone their not attracted too, when its someone they find attractive they can get all swoony and delighted at the attention. its a matter of how attractive he is on that first meeting to whether he is considered too aggressive or not, to improper or not. or even if she wants to talk to him at all.

In the future just let women make the first moves, let them be that amazonian woman that ugg knows what she delights in. does not matter what the man likes or is attracted too until a woman gives him permission to notice her without fault.

In many ways I see nothing wrong with this, women for ages got to be that employer and the men the unemployed, in other-words she got to have her pick of the suiters that came knocking at her doors. now the rolls are reversing. , men will stop hitting on the women and the women are going to have to start hitting on the men, the women are going to have to learn to become aggressive.

Think about it, it only takes a few bad apples to ruin it for everyone in the barrel of life.

All these laws against men to where men become fearful of even trying to get a date, its gone from learning how to deal with rejection that is common place to men (have to play the numbers to win), to being chastised for even that of trying. woman may say no, but its getting written into our laws much of anything men do or try becomes under scrutiny. leaving us no real choice in the end, if man wants to have love or family, then he must allow woman to dominate over man, even if she likes it or not. woman is gaining much power esp in the courts because of complaining about most ever detail, which gets written into laws. many of these laws are righteous, but to many of them is not a good thing, it brings about to much control of one over the other to where many become fearful of the smallest of things. nitpicking each other to pieces and putting it into our laws..

Its OK, right now the monkeys are just confused, enjoy it while it lasts, its entertainment.

At 18 it's pretty normal and doctors wouldn't consider it much while doing autism diagnosis assessment for an adult.

It's from 25 and above that things become questionable; and an evidence for autism.

So wait, AspergianMutantt, the terrible thing that will happen on account of all these awful novelties is that...women will have to ask men out if they want to date, and might get rejected. Is that it?

If so: Um...okay. (Where was the terrible thing, again?) I mean we already do this. Have done for years. My kid straight up does not know what a Sadie Hawkins is.

I'm perennially bemused by the OMG WOMEN HOW WHERE KNOW WHAT GETS YOU IN TROUBLE NEXT thing that happens in discussions like this. I mean it's pretty straightforward:

1. Don't go "complimenting" women on the street or hit on women who don't know you. That's harassment.
2. Don't "compliment" or hit on women at work. That's harassment.
3. If you're not already in an established relationship, don't touch a woman without asking if it's all right, and don't assume she's okay with whatever it is you're doing because she hasn't tried to fight you off. Ask her. In words. If she doesn't want it, then don't.

This is really not hard. I manage it all the time. It's even possible to figure it out with your own children. "Hey, sweetie, can I give you a hug?" "No." There we go. No hug. Or: "Uh-huh." What happens next? Hug.

It sounds like you're equating "does not want to be sexually harassed or assaulted" with "hates men and has no use for us".