I'm terrified of intimacy?

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RetroGamer87
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20 Apr 2016, 4:45 pm

wilburforce wrote:

All this you suggest is probably good advice, but only for guys going for NT women.

Yes, I meant it for going after NT women.

Also some NT women may prefer verbal communication after the relationship has been properly established. For the first few dates it's like a game but after that some prefer openness. After this point is reached some like to give and receive clear verbal instructions during intimacy. Following her instructions should be easy and will get you major kudos. This is a good time to think of what you want and tell her, remember she cares about your enjoyment just as much as you care about hers.

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hurtloam
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20 Apr 2016, 4:50 pm

[quote="Neo Redpill 101"]So I have a date set up for tonight. I emailed the woman and let her know my intentions. She knows that I don't want to just be friends and that if we meet, I want to kiss and hug her. I mentioned that I would take it slow as in slow paced, not slow as in we will just talk for the first date and maybe move onto kissing next time (another woman misunderstood me on my last date). [/quote ]

I would have cancelled on you. I don't like being told what to do. I had an aspie chap who wanted to be friends with me and he would do things like this; state what was going to happen as though it was definitely something I was on board with, like I had no free will of my own.

He never would say, hey how about this? It was never a question, I felt like I had no choice given to me. That freaked me out. I don't want to be friends with a control freak. I've walked away from women for the same reason.

Is it your demeanour maybe? Are you coming over as controlling? There is a difference between confidence and being bossy.

seaweed
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20 Apr 2016, 4:59 pm

I think, like others have said, the way you notify the woman of your intentions comes off as entitled and presumptive. and in addition to being controlling, the "this is what i want to happen" approach is clunky and lacks finesse. however, i think there is validity in wanting your date to understand your intentions, but its important to use open language instead of closed language. If you were to explain to her that you are seeking a relationship and not just a friendship before the date, and then, ask her what she is seeking too, it signifies that what she wants going into the date is equally as important to you. If you say, "how do you feel about kissing and hugging on the first or second date?" instead of saying "I want to kiss and hug you on the first or second date.", it opens it up for her to express her opinion without making her feel like she should agree or else you're not interested, and it doesn't force her to say whether she would be okay with kissing and hugging you specifically on the first or second date. also, it is completely acceptable to ask her in the moment "may I kiss you?" instead of relying on nonverbal cues only. in fact doing so is usually much appreciated in situations where boundaries have not been established yet, and not only boundaries between you and her, but also location and timing. I think predatory behavior is totally fine (yes, some people do like it!) as long as it is clear that you would not actually violate the scared rabbit, and you take her feelings and concerns seriously. initiating active consent is a major way that you can help your date feel more comfortable.

Spiderpig
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20 Apr 2016, 5:00 pm

Many argue you need to be that way in order to qualify as dating material.

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Neo Redpill 101
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20 Apr 2016, 10:51 pm

seaweed wrote:

May I kiss you? Are you being serious? I'm sorry, but every time I have ever asked if I could kiss a woman (done it a lot) they have rejected me every time. Women see that as weak and not a turn on. If by some miracle I asked for a kiss and she accepted, should I ask for permission each step of the way? Can I touch your legs now? Now can I touch your hips? Can I touch your breasts? Can we take our clothes off and have sex? I can guarantee there will definitely be a lot of NO's with this approach.

I have also had a lot of success with women agreeing with my more direct, alpha approach of telling them what I want to do with them. This shows qualities of a stronger, more attractive man. Well, that has been my life experience anyway.

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20 Apr 2016, 10:55 pm

seaweed wrote:

hurtloam
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21 Apr 2016, 7:01 am

The problem is NTs do all this with non verbal communication. It's harder for those who can't read body language.

O agree, constantly asking can I do this, can i do that is bit weird and a real mood killer.

I actually agree with Retrogamer. Start with a touch on the arm or pat on the hand. If she pulls away, non verbal cue, don't touch me.

hurtloam
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21 Apr 2016, 7:03 am

Hang on! If you've had a lot of success with women, what is the point of this thread?

b9
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21 Apr 2016, 8:11 am

if you really want a f**k, then just say "i want to f**k you" to a sociopathic chick who just wants clitoral stimulation and deep filthy orgasms and stuff and is a dirty minded girl who would like to f**k her brother even, and if your can match her dirtiness then it will be well for your experience. how very................

seaweed
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21 Apr 2016, 2:55 pm

Neo Redpill 101 wrote:

your facts:
half the women you try to kiss on a date move away and reject you
the other half let you kiss them
most of the women who let you kiss them move away abruptly and don't let you continue kissing them
every time you have asked a woman if you can kiss them they say no

therefore its a fair assumption that most women you've done this with don't want to kiss you at the place and time when you initiate the kiss.
it is also a fair assumption that you don't actually give a s**t.
you have a formula that you follow to try to get what you want that doesn't take the woman as an individual person with thoughts, feelings, and desires of her own into consideration. you said that you BS small talk so you can get women to let you kiss them and even have sex with them. its no wonder women often seem super nervous around you. women are often terrified (and rightly so) of men who don't treat them like human beings.

but no i didn't suggest always asking for permission before you initiate something. you said, " I will often move in for a kiss when the woman isn't expecting it. I will often notice when woman is sitting next to me, she seems stiff and doesn't really make eye contact with me. She is always looking straight ahead and glances at me once in a while".
this tells me that the kiss you are initiating is not at a natural point in the situation. as you begin to lean in for the kiss, in this type of situation asking is acceptable. maybe she does want to kiss you, but she doesn't want to kiss you at the crowded bar, or on the street, or wherever you are. maybe she's not opposed to kissing you in the future but doesn't really feel a connection with you because you've been bsing her with small talk about your stupid job or what you did with friends the whole time, and probably don't seem to give a s**t about what she has been saying at all.
if things move forward naturally and she is actively into it, it is a fair assumption that she wants to be there, and asking permission each time is not necessary.

RushKing
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21 Apr 2016, 3:51 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:

So have you all come here to help the OP or to criticize him? It's easy to find fault in his approach but why not suggest what he should do instead?

From my own experience it is an absolute must to make contact before the end of the first date. It need not be overtly sexual. I remember one date I went on two years ago. I didn't touch the girl at all and then after she texted back to ask why I didn't like her.

I didn't think I had said I didn't like her. Not in words but for her I said it through my actions. Because I wouldn't touch her. Just imagine how much I hurt that poor girl's feelings by making her feel so loathsome that a guy can't even bring himself to touch her in the most innocuous way.

After that I made a resolution that I would always touch her in some innocent way before the date's end. The next girl was my girlfriend for six weeks. The after that has been my girlfriend for three months and counting. The first, I laid my hands on hers for our first date and kissed her on our second. For my current girlfriend, on our first date I spent a lot of time with my hand on her back and kissed her at the end of the first date.

Remember that girls want to be touched. They don't want to be alone any more than we do. Most of all girls want to feel desirable, not so repulsive as to be untouchable. If on the first date you touch them in some inoffensive way, in the vast majority of cases they won't react badly. More often then not they'll touch you back twice as much as you touched them.

The reason for this is that girls may want physical contact but they will almost never initiate it. Once you initiate contact you open the gates for them to continue it, to intensify it should they so desire. You may think our culture says we must wait for a girl's permission to touch you, I tell you, she's waiting for your permission. You touch her, that gives her permission to touch you back.

The unfortunate double standard of our society is that for all their lives girls are taught they must not take initiative in a relationship. For them it is taboo. I don't condone this sexist double standard but it is not in our power to change it. This we must accept.

That doesn't sound like fun.

Maybe I should just give up on cis woman.

Ok, maybe I would be OK with touching her arm, but to have to initiate everything, isn't that extreme?

Last edited by RushKing on 21 Apr 2016, 4:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

The_Face_of_Boo
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21 Apr 2016, 4:16 pm

hurtloam wrote:

Hang on! If you've had a lot of success with women, what is the point of this thread?

OP said he's an American living in Japan now.

I wonder if his success/failure frequency are correlated with the culture of the girls he's approaching (Americans vs Japanese).

This might sounds stereotyping Redpill, but hookup isn't much accepted in the Asian cultures and promiscuity-shaming is still strong there (many wouldn't mind sex within a bf/gf relationship...but tend to be so against a quickie), and you're probably presenting yourself as a hookup material.
Forget the stories of the infamous sex industry in some of these countries, we are talking about the regular girls there.

rdos
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21 Apr 2016, 4:49 pm

0_equals_true wrote:

"NDs" is a nonsense.

Nuerodiversity includes Nuerotypicals, it is not mutually exclusive. That is the whole point of that concept. Both of those ideas are concepts.

Also the idea that NDs behave in a certain way, shows lack of understanding of what the word diversity means.

I don't think so. If NDs and NTs are the same (or overlapping constructs), then the whole thing ends up as meaningless. Sure, both ND and NT are syndromes, so people have both types of traits, but that doesn't mean that the traits themselves cannot be classified as either ND or NT.

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22 Apr 2016, 1:33 pm

rdos wrote:

0_equals_true wrote:

Neither of them are syndromes.

Neurodiversity is a concept. You didn't coin the term, so you can redefine it all you like, but that doesn't change its original meaning.

Nuerotypical is a concept relative to ASD.

Unlike your research, which aim to confirms a particular hypothesis, the genetic studies that Boo linked set out to answer a question more neutrally. it found there really isn't a genetic cutoff.

As you have convinced yourself that ASD is representative of a separate subspecies i.e. Neanderthal hybrids, so naturally you wish to make that as distinct and separate as possible.

rdos
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22 Apr 2016, 3:30 pm

0_equals_true wrote:

Neurodiversity is a concept. You didn't coin the term, so you can redefine it all you like, but that doesn't change its original meaning.

Nuerotypical is a concept relative to ASD.

And neither of them have any scientific value because these concepts can be whatever people want them to be.

0_equals_true wrote:

Unlike your research, which aim to confirms a particular hypothesis, the genetic studies that Boo linked set out to answer a question more neutrally. it found there really isn't a genetic cutoff.

You cannot study "genetic cutoff" when you haven't defined your concepts in a meaningful way. Also, with a huge overlap between "neurodiverse" conditions, it becomes even less meaningful to use specific diagnosis like ASD in this research.

0_equals_true wrote:

As you have convinced yourself that ASD is representative of a separate subspecies i.e. Neanderthal hybrids, so naturally you wish to make that as distinct and separate as possible.

The Neanderthal hypothesis predicts that neurodiversity will be connected to courtship and relationship traits that are very different from those of modern humans, and I think that point has been pretty much proved.

0_equals_true
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22 Apr 2016, 6:01 pm

rdos wrote:

Errr no we are modern humans. It is a romantic idea, that is all.

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