Did I just blow it? I'm so confused!

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Long post coming up. This just happened within the last few hours and I need to write it down so it doesn't clog up my brain and to ask some questions.

I went to the Church dinner like I do every Thursday night. I sat down at one of the tables and there was this woman sitting next to me. We started talking. She seemed really friendly. She even thanked me for sitting at her table as though that was doing her a favour. after a while I thought she could be hitting on me (not that I'd know what that looks like, if a woman held up a picket sign about it I'd probably still be in doubt). Anyway, she was 30, had three kids, not the ideal match but I could settle. Seeing as how my odds of getting a girlfriend at all are about one in a Graham's Number she'd do. But I wasn't yet sure. I didn't want to ask her out if it turned out she wasn't hitting on me. I wanted to be certain even if in her mind she thought she was writing it out in neon.

She was leaning towards me a little bit. She was asking about me a lot. She asked what my job was and was impressed when I said "graphic designer". I tried to say it wasn't so impressive but I don't like telling people I work at a graphic design firm as one of the grunts and that I'm on a supported wage for unemployables at $25 for 8 hours a week and my money comes from a pension and the only reason I keep this annoying job is so when people ask me what I do for a living I don't have to say "nothing".

She was saying stuff like she wanted to make new friends and it was just her and the kids at home and she doesn't like being stuck at home all the time and she wanted to hang out with people besides kids and most of her kids would be with their Dad on the weekend. She didn't even seem phased when she worked out that the middle aged woman sitting next to me was my mother and that since July I'd been living at home again. But she seemed very friendly and smiley than her expression turned more serious and in a low voice she said something about how she didn't like people ignoring her. Than she started crying. Had I done this? I asked her about it and she said something about other people ignoring her.

She seemed slightly more cold and started talking to my mother. She started talking to me again for a while and in her low tone of voice she something about how she hates it when people don't understand her messages. She said this a few more times in the conversation but insisted she was talking about other people. After she said the thing about messages I started interpreting every little thing she said as a hidden message.

Anyway, I decided I'd collected enough data on the subject and was certain she had been hitting me. That was obvious even to a megadork like me. Not that I had any idea about how to flirt back. Before I'd been reluctant to ask her out because I had to make certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was supposed to (this is the reason I usually date women from dating sites because I know they already want to go out but then I can't take it to the next level). Also the reason I found it ambiguous at first is that she's 30 (or so I managed to calculate from her brief life story) and I'm 26 in a week and I wasn't sure about the age disparity (and she'd already asked me age by this point).

So since I was supposed to be asking her out, I didn't want to just blurt out "do you want to go out with me?" That's not how it's done. Is it? I wouldn't know. I know less about this stuff than a novice in a nunnery. So I thought I'd just sort of imply it and steer the conversation in that direction. I asked her if she liked a particular pub. She said she used to go there but now she can't afford to go to any pubs. Doesn't she know that I'd pay for it? Or am I supposed to think that? I was leading up to asking her if she wanted me to "shout' her a drink. First I just said how it's no fun being stuck at home all the time (which she'd already said herself) but then she just said that she doesn't go to pubs anymore.

She went on about getting her hair done and her eye brows plucked but that's not a dating activity. I kept on thinking every single thing she said was somehow supposed to be a message. When she said she liked it when her kids do stuff by themselves, was I supposed to ask her out by myself (which I was trying to work towards at the time with all the grace of The Two Ronnies doing ballet). When she said to one of her kids that they should ask what other people like I thought maybe it was a hidden message that I should ask her what she'd want to do. I asked her what stuff she liked doing besides getting her hair done and she said she didn't do anything. She just cleaned the house and watches TV.

Now I thought maybe she wasn't interested in me. It was sort of like she was blocking my attempts to imply that I wanted to go out with her. I thought I must have been mistaken and didn't bring it up again. But still, had she not been interested the whole time or was she just turned off because I didn't ask her out the moment she started flirting with me? Maybe I should have jumped on the chance a bit sooner but I was trying to build up the courage because for one with as much anxiety as I have asking a girl out is like getting teeth pulled.

But even after this, she seemed less cold. She talked animatedly. She started leaning towards me a bit and even brushed her hair with her hand. I've read these could be signs of interest but I don't know such things instinctively. Or do girls sometimes just brush their hair with their hands just because they feel like it or because it's getting in their eyes or something? I wouldn't know. I'm the aspiest aspie in the world.

She said she was going to go home but she still managed to linger for about a minute afterwards. She started using her low voice again. She sounded even more angry. I thought she said if I didn't think she was worth it than that was fine. I started apologizing but she said she didn't mean me, she was talking about other people. She went back to her profusely friendly tone and said she wasn't mad at me, just the other people. She said she was fine with me because I've been "nothing but friendly". What does that mean? Does that mean that I was supposed to be more than friendly but didn't because of my ineptitude? Since I recently switched from Risperadone to phentermine I think I've been even more paranoid than usual. She said she'd see me again next fortnight.

Some of the time I was so certain of her interest People keep on telling me I'm smart but with my lack of career, poor life choices and nights like this I don't feel very smart. I think Helen Keller could do better job of interpreting signs of interest than me and she's been dead for 45 years.

So people of the Jury what's the verdict? Am I a nominee for the dork of the century award? Was she not interested in the first place? Was her flirting all in my mind? Was she interested for a while but then I didn't respond immediately so than she was mad for a while and than she decided to stick me in the "friend zone"? (a place I have visited many times before).( Maybe not acting quickly is a sign that I lack confidence. I hear women don't like that and I've got enough confidence to fill a cubic planck length). Or is there still some sort of chance for me next fortnight if I can pull my act together, pull my head out of the ground and overcome my cowardice? Sure she's four years older than me and has three kids but at this point in my life I'd date anything with two X chromosomes. The thought of being alone is even more terrifying than not being alone.

Right, that's your angle. So, that's how you are going to behave in this course of interractions - needy, and (understandably) a little clueless.

This isn't the main thing thing. The main thing is that this woman sounds like damaged goods. Not what you need right now.

You haven't talked about her in really positive terms. Do you like her? Doesn't sound like it - so why bother? The way she conducted herself - yes, she's testing you, but she's a bit over the shop.

The fact that you have written so long a post about this encounter suggests that you are making it much more than it should be. I'm sorry, she doesn't sound like a decent quality human being. Maybe, you could argue, there's gold buried somewhere. I'd argue that there's also probably a lot of nasty stuff there, too.

What was that Iron Maiden song? Oh yeah, "Run to the Hills". This woman (or should I say little girl in disguise) will, potentially, run rings around you, and force you to eat her droppings. AVOID.

Thank you for the advice. You're probably right. Although no women is perfect this one may not be the one for me. I don't really like women with kids anyway but these days is seems even a lot of 20 year olds have them. Even though I'm as noticeable to women as a butterfly in a diving bell I should be more choosy. It's just that I wanted to stick to women who were "in my league" (and I feel I may be too old to get a girl who hasn't already been in a relationship and if she's not in one now she must've broken up and if that happened she may've "damaged") but that probably isn't going to help and if my diet pills work out I may be able to move to a slightly better league. Also I didn't like how she kept on saying she was cool. Cool people don't say that.

Anyway It's normal for me to write long opening posts.

No YOU DID NOT! She did. She sounds like she has a Borderline Personality Disorder. You cannot manage this relationship, no one except a therapist . She needs a lot of professional help.

Sometimes you just have to remember it's not you, it might be the other person.

Someone that's interested would say pleasant things and would not rush into anything. You also don't have to divulge any information about yourself and your work the first moment you meet. Healthy neuro typicals like a little mystery. A little information is okay, just like you did. The chit chat should have been mostly about the church going ons. How long have you been there? Did you enjoy the last event? etc.

Good luck and lots of blessings to you and your Mom.

This woman is too impatient with you, you are the nice guy and you will be looking after somebody else's kids while she might try to patch up things with her ex(es). It will give you some experience, but it will be heart breaking while your in it

She must have been attractive though

Interesting you should say that because this girl I dated a few months ago with giving me even more ambiguous mixed signals. She kept on talking explicitly about sex and than saying she wasn't interested in it. Maybe she had borderline personality disorder as well. She dumped me over the internet. Maybe this 30 old would do the same thing or something else bad. She must have some disorder because in my sheltered life I haven't observed women so forward with any man. And she shouldn't anger so easily. Why is it that I attract the crazy ones?

Anyway this younger woman who... I don't think it counts as dumping after one date but she still should've told me why... This younger woman dumped me on the same day, actually the same hour that I got kicked out of my house and had to have the humiliation of moving back in with my mother (not that she'd ever humiliate me, she doesn't mind having me and compared to some people's parents she's actually quite kind, reasonable and mentally stable). This combination of events started my current depression and self-hatred that actually got me to sign up for Wrong Planet in the first place. Anyway now I think I shouldn't have gotten so worked up about this 23 year old headcase.

As for the 30 year old, some of the time I felt like I was talking to two different people so if she really does have borderline personality disorder I feel sorry for her kids. It must be hard being raised by the Jekyll and Hyde mum. Only now do I realize how toxic and insane she really is. She would use and manipulate one as naive as me. She said that I didn't think she was worth it she isn't. If she thinks I rejected her than she can go on thinking that. Better to stay single than deal with this witch. No wonder I get confused with women like that.



It's a huge relief to hear you say that. These women must be even more mentally disturbed than I am.



I see your point but it just feels sort of dishonest for me to say I have a cool job when I have a lame job. I really don't like to lie. It disrupts what little order there is in the world.

I wouldn't know about the church going ons. As an atheist I only go to various churches because I like the food there. More than half the people there weren't members of the church (this woman was though). Don't worry I'm not one of those preachy militant atheists who could give fundamentalists a run for their money. I don't like them any more than you do. I'm perfectly at ease with the notion that other people have different beliefs than me and don't mind frequenting different churches.




Well thank you! That was some pretty good advice. I'm starting to feel a bit better now and I hope that's not just the effect of the amphetamine diet pills I'm on (I know they're unhealthy but I've already started to lose weight after three days and being 50 kilograms overweight could be even more unhealthy).

Last edited by RetroGamer87 on 10 Oct 2013, 9:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

Yeah and I don't even like kids that much. It's not that I hate them it's just that I don't relate to them very well except for the older ones who can have intelligent conversations. For someone who relies exclusively on verbal and written communication I tend not to relate to people who don't yet have fully developed vocabularies. The younger ones, even after they start talking they seem to be not fully sapient.



She was about average. If I sat next to a really attractive one I'd be far too terrified to make a move and if she came onto me like that I'd probably assume I was hallucinating.

Hating on this women doesn't sound fair to me. You guys could be right that she's not worth the trouble or is mentally unhinged. It's also equally possible that she's just insecure (recent divorcee) and perhaps a bit socially awkward herself. I don't think anyone could make a formal diagnosis from one conversation.

I dated a girl for a while last year who had a five year old kid and it was clear that being a single mom for so long she was starved for adult interaction and quite lonely. Also pretty sure her daughter was on the spectrum. She reminded me a lot of my wierdness at 5.

My recomendation:
If you see her at church again, ask her out for tea or something. Sounds like you're both lonely so it couldn't hurt for either of you to make a new friend at the very least.

While I think she was interested in you, I have to agree with the OPs. She's got baggage and three children. If you go into relationship with her then you'll have to be willing to help with/look after her kids, and I don't you think you're really in a position to do that. I have to disagree with the BPD. People when fliritng do send mixed messages Or she could have other problems.
Anyway, here is why I think she liked you. I could be wrong but:

[/quote]She seemed really friendly. She even thanked me for sitting at her table as though that was doing her a favour.

She was leaning towards me a little bit.But she seemed very friendly and smiley than her expression turned more serious and in a low voice she said something about how she didn't like people ignoring her. Than she started crying.She seemed slightly more cold and started talking to my mother.in her low tone of voice she something about how she hates it when people don't understand her messagesI didn't want to just blurt out "do you want to go out with me?" That's not how it's done. First I just said how it's no fun being stuck at home all the time (which she'd already said herself) but then she just said that she doesn't go to pubs anymore.[/quote]
That sounds like a subtle rejection. Followed by:

With a change of subject. Not good.


I think you're right about that.


You're right about hair brushing being a sign of interest, but only moments ago she didn't seem interested. I'm confused too!


Sounds she was expecting you to ask her out...even though you had made your intentions clear by asking her pubs and such.


I think this is her lying to smooth things over. Sometimes people will blurt things out angrily and when they get an apology they immediatly backtrack, regretting saying it out loud, and saying they were talking about other people. It happens a lot.

Even though other people had treated her badly you've been nice to her and she's grateful.


At the dinner again? Sounds like a friendly, rather than flirty, goodbye.

It sounds like she kept changing her mind over you. But, as the OPs said I don't think she's right for you.
On the plus side it sounds like you already know a lot about body language and stuff. Asking her to the pub was a safe choice for a first date and offering to buy her a drink was a good way to go. You were kind, listened, and was worried about her when she was upset - you're bound to find someone suitable soon!

Edit: Just noticed the mess I've made of this post! With some of the things I wrote in the quote-white-space thing. Please excuse me for that.

It sounds like this woman was giving you every chance imaginable to ask her out.

The thing is, it's not as easy and simple as just asking her out.

Pick up artists will tell you that you need to impress her with a joke or something about yourself. That's usually BS and won't work.

But what will make you very powerful to her is if you give her the right kind of attention. Most men suck at this. When I say giving her this type of attention she desires, this means taking a genuine interest in her.

My personal preference is called the " 70/30" rule

Ask 70% questions about her & talk 30% about yourself.

From reading your article, it doesn't sound like you did anything near the " 70/30" rule. I could be wrong but maybe you can elaborate.

Yeah I know. I'm bad like that. It was when I started talking about pubs that she started blocking me. She said she likes to stay home all the time (and this was after she said she needed to get out more). Maybe I'd already made her mad by that point.



This is true. I listened to her talk about herself but I didn't ask her too many questions about herself. This is because on my last date I actually think I put the girl off by asking too many questions. We ran out of things to talk about, I started asking her questions and it turned into an "interview". There was no follow up date but this has put me off asking too many questions.

Hmmm. The first three answers say she's a toxic psycho and the next three answers say she's not quite so bad. Who to believe?

Well, when I was talking to you on another thread, you asked a question to a woman that would come off as insensitive in that situation.

The woman had just finished telling you about herself and you asked what she was studying.

My point is, maybe you need to work on what types of questions your asking these women.

Hmmm. The first three answers say she's a toxic psycho and the next three answers say she's not quite so bad. Who to believe?

What do you think? Forget everything about you and your circumstance.

Blank all out - look at the person. Do you like her?

Maybe try this - an idea I had a while ago....

Imagine you had a son, a son who you loved very much. You're older, and he's about to turn 26.

What would you tell him? Would you tell him to go for it?

---
At the end of this, it's what's best for you. You don't owe the woman anything. She has baggage - most 30+ people do. But, I'm sorry, she's been round the block and done the lap of honour. You haven't even got off the start line, in terms of experience. A relationship with this woman, from the information that you give, doesn't seem like a good prospect. She could turn out to be the love of your life - but, if a bookie was laying odds on it, I know what I would back.

Last edited by octobertiger on 10 Oct 2013, 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Agreed. It was like she was interviewing you for the role. Why not have it the other away around?

Also, who had control of the conversation? She had control of the whole interaction. Who do you think would control the relationship, as it develops?

You may want experience with woman - I think you might be climbing Everest here far, far too early.

Oh yeah - your mum was there - what's her point of view?

Last edited by octobertiger on 10 Oct 2013, 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Your own experiences. From my opinion, if you meet her again, I´d simply be pretty (not totally) honest, so if you are happy to see her, then be happy, and if you have problems with "recognizing unspoken language between the lines" I´d mention it exactly that way. Dont say it with an grave-voice or whatever, but just as there is nothing bad in mentioning to have bad eyes and wear lenses, I see as well nothing bad in neutrally or mentioning to be bad in body language. I wouldnt push it or whatever, but simply would say: "Hi, I didnt get our last meeting out of our head. So sadly I dont have much experiences in flirting with woman, so the question that bothered me, if you maybe would have liked to drink an coffee with me and if you would have liked to do so, if you may still be interested in doing so?"

Around here its called the "wooden hammer method", but as long as you tell people truths in a well mood, while giving them the feeling that you are neither talking about catastrophies, nor that you will do dramas about their answers, I have made far better experiences with that, then when trying to imitate an NT and tumble blindly around, while I pretend to my opposite to see every detail and act to everything on purpose. ^^