Say no to pick up a**holes

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And I've seen a lot of that material too. It's broader than they think!

first of all, it would be nice to see some actual statistics.

second of all, your point is bouncing around. you seem to be both saying that men used to be MORE successful and simultaneously LESS successful at mating. i think you are having difficulty with your argument because you are confusing several issues - whether a person will ever find a mate, whether a person will spawn, and whether a person will have multiple sex partners. these are different issues and can't really be packaged together.

for example, even if most men do not spawn, that does not mean the men did not date, did not have multiple partners, or did not marry a soul mate. so the genetic stuff does not relate to any of the topics under discussion here.

third of all, if men are unsuccessful, so are women. the same number of women and men are ultimately die alone. we live in the same world.

PUA are not alpha males!! ! it has been shown that men (including PUA) who are seeking casual sex partners will significantly "lower" their standards to try to obtain sex partners. PUA are not having sex with the beauty queens, the supermodels, the educated high class women - they are having sex with whoever will do it.

i disagree, because i think that anyone who uses the PUA material to pick up women for sex is automatically an asshat (as you put it) and cannot be defined as decent. a man doesn't teach himself to manipulate women, utilise those skills to use women for sex and nothing else, and yet still retain his card-carrying decency.

The Face of Boo has a sense of humor I appreciate.

The 60% statistic comes solely from the notion that female hypergamy is more or less rampant and we have reverted to default human mating in the west (the much more available 40% of human males successfully reproduced statistic). To my knowledge no such study exists to prove or disprove that theory. But there are definite signs, nothing concrete, but signs nonetheless that there are more frustrated lonely males than there are frustrated lonely females. (Off the top of my head... 4chan, gamer culture, men stuck in a seeming endless adolescence, not to mention male friends and friends of friends among whom there are nothing but betas who go to bed alone 363/365 days a year. A multitude of female friends and colleagues who complain about disinterested men who won't commit to them - I can only think of one woman I am acquainted with who has complained about her inability to get a date. Hardly proof, but still)

Yes I apologise for my lazy throwing around of the word "success". It's going to mean different things to different people. In my last when I said "chronically unsuccessful" I mean men who are rejected or friendzoned repeatedly, occasionally getting a pity lay from an equally inebriated women, which if he is lucky does not get him accused of rape. Relationships of any kind are rare, dry spells lasting year(s).

When I, or anyone else versed in game literature says say "alphas", we mean a man who gets a great deal of female attention. The best ones do get a top quality woman now and again but these women have their own problems in this feminist dystopia. Being women they only look up the status pyramid for mates. When you're a women near or at the top, the number of potential mates are slim to start with. When you have to compete with hordes of lesser more slu*ty women making themselves available to your would-be mate, getting a worthy man to commit is damn hard.

It's a tough one, manipulate is not a nice word. From a man's point of view it's nothing more than making yourself more attractive, on the same playing field as putting on good cologne. And it's not like women don't manipulate men all the time to get what they want.

If your parents sucked, don't repeat their mistakes.

If your father wasn't around (my dad abandoned me and came back years later), it's not your mother's fault.

The single mothers have had it tough yet they get shamed all over again when their sons decide to do what their deadbeat fathers do.

Break the mold.

If you can't be bothered then fine go be like your father but I have noticed that sometimes these are just heart tugging excuses for bad behavior because I've known of people who have had complete sh***y childhoods who did not repeat that pattern so society likes to keep those who had bad childhoods as victims who SHOULD do what those who let you down did.

It's up to you now. If you can't do it, you have very little will power. Who you are now is all on you. Take responsibility for it or one of these ladies you score with will end up pregnant and your child will re-live your life as a child all over again...unless you just don't care then stop bringing that up as your reasons.

With contraception abound, conceiving is a choice.
With abortion legal and safe, remaining pregnant is a choice.
With the vast majority of no-fault divorces initiated by women, becoming a single mother, more often than not, is a choice.
If you get pregnant by a man who then leaves you and your kid and you genuinely didn't choose to be a single mother, that's still partially your fault for choosing the wrong guy.

Personal Responsibility. Live with the choices you've made and stop blaming men for everything.

Yes yes you can't be responsible for anything even though you've tried to turn it around and make it seem all the woman's fault for something a man and a woman does together.

I wonder how many of the PUA's forget about STD's. I bet you don't even wear a condom. You should go checked.

mathematically, an equal number of men and women must marry, and they have the same average number of sexual partners. concepts like "hypergamy" are often thrown around in certain online communities, but it doesn't mean much in the real world of dating. it is not as though fewer men than women are ultimately successful at obtaining a sex partner or getting married - both genders have to have equal rates of both, on average.


women also have dry spells like men, or go an entire lifetime without a single meaningful long-term relationship, or have bad experiences that are *largely* gender-specific. some men may have trouble getting laid, and some women have trouble keeping men off of them.


a great deal of female attention is not a prerequisite to a successful relationship. it all comes back to the fact that PUA material is created for casual sex, not long-term relationships. and anyway, that's not the definition of an alpha male. it appears that the PUA community is trying to repurpose a biological term in order to sell an idea, regardless of how accurate that term really is within that context (ironic, as Boo thought i was doing the same thing).


i've read the materials, and only a small part of it is dedicated to "making yourself more attractive". most of it is designed to try to mess with women's heads and keep them off balance. the parts that deal with self-improvement deal with it as a means to an end, as opposed to improvement for a person's own sake.

it's a not-nice word for a not-nice movement.

Marriage is dying, the marriage rate among our generation has dropped catastrophically, the divorce rate is through the roof. I don't think marriage accurately reflects the heterosexual dating scene.
Regarding the average number of partners thing, I guess the usefulness of that info depends on how it was calculated. Taking a silly example, let's have 10 men and 10 women enter our survey. If one PUA from the male group sleeps with all 10 women and the other 9 sleep with none. The average number of partners for men and women is 1 each. I doubt the math is that stupid, but I hope you see my point. PUAs being extreme outliers (small minority of men with 100-1000 partners) may have been excluded altogether.

For the sake of argument lets say that its true most men and women have the roughly the same number of life time partners. That does not mean men and women see equal success during the prime dating years.
Notice I was careful to say that 60% of men in their 20s/30s (ok early 30s) are "chronically unsuccessful with women". These are the people who benefit from game the most and they were my intended focus.The average partners may balance out due to the fact that the market switches on its head after about age 35, women who were rolling about in attention suddenly find there is none, and hard working betas who saw no success over the last 15 years are suddenly desirable and surrounded by desperate women their own age.

What does success mean for most women? I'm not qualified to answer. However:

A man who marries a loyal quality woman in his early 20s, has kids and stays married, right to the end, is a success in my book. A man who bangs 500 women in his lifetime is also a success in his own right, although on a more primal level. A man who gets little to no action in his 20s and 30s and marries a desperate former slut with two of her own kids at the age of 35 is so full of fail there are tears of laughter rolling down my cheeks as I write it.



Of course, never thought otherwise, I just believe there are more men than women in that situation. If we use the same statistic, 20% of women would be deemed undateable, compared to 60% of men. So ~3 lonely men for every lonely woman. I look around at my peers and it's not totally unbelievable.



What if I were to teach a woman to behave in a more feminine manner? Teach her to massage her guy's ego, act submissively and deferentially etc. Even to me it sounds less sinister. Is this a male-as-predator double standard?

Last edited by lilypadfad on 01 Sep 2011, 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Give it up mate, I mostly agree with you don't get me wrong, but this one's not gonna end and you know it

my eye caught this part and it negated everything else you tried to say. you managed to insult older women, women with sexual experience, women with children, single mothers, and inexperienced men... all in one sentence.

as soon as people start lowering themselves to that level, i can see they are not prepared to debate intellectually but must instead take potshots to try to get a point across.

your comment (among other ones you made) shows a fundamental lack of respect for both men and women, yet you argue that PUA techniques are well-suited to "decent" men. how are comments like that "decent"?

He touched on one of those grey areas that I try not to comment too indiscriminately about. It is a taboo where I am from where a man who dates a woman who has slept around before (in most cases I've been aware of during too) is ridiculed for doing such. It's unfortunate and I personally don't feel comfortable adhering to a taboo like that. I'm quite open-minded about most things so I wouldn't hold it against someone.

Really, this particular debate had ceased to go anywhere a long time ago, and I have always felt it's difficult trying to articulate the positives of game to women (and indeed men) who have already formed a negative (and admittedly reasonable) understanding of it. It will always be highly subjective as a result.

I honestly don't disagree with quite a bit of what lilypadfad has said today. From my own point of view, I see a lot negatives in PUA tactics, but I have personally found many positives in the stuff I have read, and I am certainly no woman-hating manipulator.

Bed time for me night all

i will never understand how women are demonised if they don't give it up, and yet they are demonised for... giving it up. i do not understand how it is possible to simulataneously complain about how hard it is to get sex yet also disrespect women who engage in it.


if i could personally see one positive effect that men can get from PUA stuff that was not available in other self-help books (which happen to also helpfully skip the unsavoury goals), i'd concede it has a place on a modern man's bookshelf. fact is, if the purpose is personal development or finding a long-term relationship, there much are more reputable authors.