Why don't more women make the first move?

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^^ I am still trying to figure what MissC meant by the second part of the question.

I personally find it pointless to quibble about the various assumptions and mentaltities that result from the much larger assumption that men should ask out women. If that line hadn't already been drawn, there would be no reason to assume a woman is desperate for asking a man out and etc.

That line was drawn at a time when men and women were not equal socially. Now that we are equal on paper people following these old customs are holding back the true equality. I dont blame them for not wanting to give up the upper hand but if you cry for equality you have to remember you have to give as much as you take.

^ I completely agree with that. Any woman who claims she wants equality but still expects men to ask her out and pay for dates doesn't really want equality. She wants favortism. Equal rights with extra perks.

Upperhands and power games is not something I've ever really comprehended. I guess I can see why they wouldn't want to give it up. But it still makes them jerks, imo.

The headache is social customs and attitudes move considerably more slowly than law. When one looks at the tides of history and realize that things have been this way for maybe 60 or 70 years at best, it puts in perspective just how new all of this is and why we're still dealing with a lot of paleo-social flotsam.

They move at that pace because its how people want them to move.

Not trying to push you here but do you even know what that means? 'Because 'they' want them to' is a much more vast, complex, headless, and non-humanly-decided dynamic than you're crediting it for.

Nobody likes to give up an advantage. Most differences between men and women are by what they learn. Most physical differences are directly related to bearing a child and only affect that in itself

I'll give you that's a piece of it, not the whole though.

Very true.

Although maybe they like not asking guys out in order to stick to tradition?

If that is the case, we may as well become sexist again to prove a point so they can't moan if they can't get a BF despite not trying to make the first move.

Seriously though, I do find it strange...even girls who genuinely like the guy don't try to pursue anything from it (maybe a fear of the friend zone).

There are a few innate inequalities amongst the sexes, that cannot be equalized. Men will always be physically stronger, on average, and women will likely always be the one to carry the child to term.

Men and women will likely, in general, continue to have a different order of priorities when it comes to romantic relationships.

When I think of the women's liberation movement, I think of women striving for equality in the sense of being perceived as an intellectual equal. Women getting equal pay for equal work, and so on. And I think of this in the context of the history of the treatment and perceptions of women in western society, and sometimes previous societies.

When I think of young boys being told to "treat women with respect" however, I do not envision this to mean treat women special, as if they should be kept on a pedestal. I take this phrase as intended to mean that women should be treated as intellectual equals. Unfortunately I think too many misunderstood this to mean treat women special, and breeds false expectations of how women should act in return.

I believe both sexes should treat each other with respect and regard each other more or less as intellectual equals. I don't have a problem with women approaching men, or approaching them myself, but that does not change that fact that many women won't do this. However, when put in it's socio-historic context, I don't think it's fair to be upset with women who will not approach men. Nor is it fair to be jealous of men who got women because they approached them.

Concerning holding doors and paying for dates, I have no reservations about each party paying for their own meal. In fact I prefer to pay for my own meal when I can as I do not like being a burden on others. Concerning holding doors, I do not expect men to hold doors for me any more than I expect anyone else to hold a door for me. I thank those who do hold doors for me and I routinely hold doors for anyone entering a building behind me. However many men get somewhat offended when women attempt to hold doors for them or move to open a door themselves when he was going to do it.

And then there are the things we cannot equalize. As the sex that is blessed with greater physical strength, I believe men have an obligation to aid those who are not as physically strong as they are in emergency situations, when feasible. This includes the elderly, women, and children. Likewise, women are also expected to aid those who are not as physically strong as they are, but it's unlikely a man would fall into this category.

I also believe women have certain responsibilities to men in certain situations, but I do not have enough time to elaborate on that at the moment. I will do so later.

Ive never claimed it to be the whole. But its a significant amount for sure

and men will always be the cheapest dispensable tools by governments/rulers in the times of war.

First, complements: Chronos, myth, you're both ace on this topic. Thought I should make sure I shared that since there's a thread going around that claims you didn't already just 'know' that I thought that.

I think a lot of times women are still stuck between wanting equality and then having lots of people around them laddel out tautologies about how a quality man will still pay, that if he doesn't its a sign of x, y, or z (comparable to 'if he won't buy a big diamond') so I'd figure women - as much as guys these days, get torn between being their best selves and modern but also hope they don't get played for suckers by it.

It seems like the best psychological compromise I've found, at least what seems to sort of short-cut that mechanism, is rather than 'splitting' pay on separate checks - which just feels cheap and it seems like the topic of money coming up has sort of a raunchy and off-putting vibe on its own - just trade off. If its a two part date, like dinner and a movie or dinner and a museum one buys for both on dinner, the other buys for both on the movie tickets or the museum tickets. I like to think of it as the 'buying rounds' solution.


Exactly what I think.

and I can think of something off the top of my head that a woman should interject on for starters. Don't let him leave the house wearing sweatpants or blue jeans with a bright orange shirt.

I'm thinking AI threatens to make us obsolete there as well, what with the HR costs such as medical benefits and lifetime pay as well as college funding for vets - especially for those who come back disabled.

hahahaahhaha

Americans....they think that the whole world is blessed like their country.

Man, soldiers in the third-world are seen as nothing but rats to sacrifice with.

Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 01 Mar 2012, 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.