NT female seeks input on AS male's fears

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Sure. Context: for a few months, he'd been behaving in ways which passively signaled that he was detaching from the relationship. (Showing less interest in me, spending less time with me, backpedaling on plans we'd agreed in advance). Against that backdrop, he also developed a maddening habit that is a classic example of passive-aggressive behavior.

On Sundays, I'd go to work while he'd go for a long bike ride. We'd have plans to meet for coffee near my office, sometime later in the afternoon. We'd set no specific time, just agreed that he would contact me when he was ready, after driving home and showering. Due to the lack of cell phone reception inside my office building, he knew that the best way to contact me at work is to send an email. He also had my work number. So I'd be at work waiting for an email, eager to spend time with him, but he'd sabotage it in some way.

Once he emailed, "I'm at X location, on my way." (He seemed to assume that I could calculate a period of time from "X location." Of course, he'd sold my car, so I had no idea how far away location X was, or how long it would take him to arrive.) So I replied, "ok, let me know when you're here," and kept working. I became conscious that a long time had passed, and I was starting to wonder what happened. Finally he emailed, "listen, I've been sitting here for an hour, so I'm going to go now."

I'd really been looking forward to it, so that confused and upset me. In a panic, I emailed, "no no, I had no idea you'd been waiting all this time, I'll be there in 5 minutes." So I ran over and he'd waited, but it spoiled our nice afternoon. He's the one who kept me waiting and neglected to specify a time, but I was the one apologizing and feeling guilty. Nifty how that works, eh?

So increasingly this became a pattern: he wouldn't specify a time (such as "20 minutes" or "4:30'), but then he'd blame me for inconveniencing him. It sounds petty, but it was terribly upsetting, because it wasn't just about meeting for coffee. Each instance was another hostile act, another emotional "punch in the face." Aggressive, but passively. Worse, by directly confronting him about it, in an attempt to address and solve the problem, that made ME the aggressor.

Passive-aggressive behavior is cowardly. Such people don't have the guts to say, "I'm really pissed off because of X, Y, Z." It isn't comfortable, but I think that's actually much less hostile, because one can respond to it in a concrete way. It allows for a meaningful exchange of information, and some sort of resolution - which is not the goal of passive hostility. The goal is to inflict pain, and they'll keep doing it as long as you permit it.

Part of the reason for that, I believe, is that it's not entirely conscious behavior. They claim innocence, because they aren't consciously aware of what they're doing. And it's far easier to tell the (justifiably upset) victim that they're imagining things, that they're the one being hostile, than it is to examine one's own feelings and motivations. My Aspie and I have really erupted on each other a few times - raised voices, use of the F word. But we both hate conflict, so we both seek to resolve it as quick as we can. I find that FAR preferable.

Well, that concludes the lecture! Sorry this is so long - I hope it's helpful and makes sense.

Wow, really? I'm very flattered.

There have been so many great contributions on this thread - I'm getting such an education. Earning the paycheck has to come first, but there are still some responses I'll come back to when I get a chance. G'night!

Better and better........beings who are in some ways more able than ourselves, watching over us, rarely seen......somehow that makes me feel safe.

Had you already gone through the usual calming down that always seems to happen after the "honeymoon effect" when the relationship is new, or was this that very phase?


A simple courtesy like giving an ETA to a partner seems axiomatic, even I know that. You were doing a lot of the running, it seems to me, not just literally. I've blipped in and out of working really hard on relationships. I've always regretted the ones I didn't work at, though when I really have worked at them, they've just ended up taking liberties. I seem to be making headway with assertiveness in real life, but as you've indicated, it takes two.


I've lost count of the number of times I've felt mortified by what anybody would think was the tiniest slight. Here's one of mine:
I reached to my partner for a hug, but she brushed me off, saying she had a terrible headache. Accepting that, I was surprised to find her a few minutes later fully alert and engaged in a game with four children who were yelling. I said "I thought you said you'd got a headache?" to which she smiled and rattled a bottle of aspirins at me. Even if it had been the truth, it wouldn't have taken more than a hand on my shoulder to reassure me. As it was, I curtailed the weekend visit I was on because I felt so unwanted. Quite a reaction for the sake of one hug, but of course it wasn't just that. There was always an air of "you need me more than I need you" - a curiously macho streak for a woman, looking back now.
She related a story of her having been indecently assaulted before we'd met, and as she spoke she showed seemingly normal distaste for the event. I felt little immediate emotional reaction. She then said that she could feel I'd become very tense, which baffled me.....a little alarm bell had gone off at the story, but it was a day or two later that the emotional significance of the story sank in (alexithymia?), and I felt quite panicky at the image of this guy and what he'd been doing. But when I tried to explain this to her, well if she did give me any reassurance, she drowned it out with exasperation at my being so scared of nothing. Her attitude of distaste for the event had changed to nonchalance....I guess she was hiding behind my anxiety while berating me for feeling it.


I think it's a given in relationship counselling that couples really need to be able to challenge each other's behaviour in exactly that open, honest way. It came as a shock to me to find that not everybody who deliberately starts a fight is wrong. I suppose, like many of my colleagues I've done my share of passive aggression against employers, over the years (though not of the emotional type), but the power relations between management and workforce were never even.......for partners, well if you haven't got some kind of parity, it's oppression. It's very hard for a lot of us to be assertive, but if we aren't, even if it doesn't come out as passive-aggressive, it's going to be harmful somehow.....I gather people can get very flattened emotions, clamping down ther negative tends to take the positive with it.



I think it strengthens a couple a lot if they've yelled at each other and resolved it well. Ideally I'd have that as a criterion for partner selection, but people don't seem to get tested like that until it's rather late in the day.


No need to be. These relationship issues always interest me.

Yes and yes.

Quite all right! I'd guess it bothers you more than anyone.


That's a big concern. I figured it out 2-3 years ago. We've talked very little over that period, and there were always more pressing matters at hand. Also, the circumstances were not right, in which case, he'll either refuse to hear it or melt down. So I really haven't had a chance yet.


Well, considering the labels he's been given in the past, I doubt he'll be bothered by one that explains in complex detail why he's felt different all his life. As an adult, he's been compared to Lurch, Frankenstein, and Sylvester Stallone. A big, ugly meathead. Besides, if no one else knows, it can't be used to label him.

One of the most useful aspects of this discussion for me, is that it's helped me separate the AS from the rest of his personality. To me, AS is a helpful framework within which to understand a different type of perceiving and information processing. It has been most useful for re-interpreting and finally making sense of the past. But I hate calling him "my Aspie" (I do so only for reasons of anonymity), because that's never what he was to me, and I don't want that to change.


I think that statement is equally applicable to NTs. We all need a solid foundation to stand on. In tangible, objective terms, there is only one reality, only one data point that can occupy a given coordinate in a given instant. But there are different ways of perceiving it.


Ha ha! I've thought the same way, attempting to navigate and unravel the many social Gordian knots my Aspie has made. Now that I understand so much better how he perceives things, his words and actions make much more sense. When we first met, he talked a lot about perceptions. It was all about perceptions. I really wasn't sure what he was on about. Years later, I've come full circle, and now I think he's 100% correct. It IS all about perceptions.


If they bother to get that far at all. Before I knew about AS, that's how I used to describe communicating with my Aspie. At the times, I thought it was a rather brilliant insight, or least a pretty good analogy to convey a complex concept. I'm way past that now. And he's certainly been the one "thinking in color" these days!


That's an excellent point. I think this is where a lot of my Aspie's mistrust comes from. It's frustrating to me, because I've made such a huge effort to see things his way. And he doesn't appreciate that he's said and done many things to cause me to mistrust him (or, at least they would, if I hadn't stumbled upon AS). For now, I don't bring it up, because I don't want to argue or make him feel bad. When I imagine what he spent a decade married to . . . well, hopefully we'll have the rest of our lives to explain it all to each other.

Oh no, this was the very end, after about a decade together. We'd been separated for a year (although we lived only 4 blocks apart) and had both worked hard to put the relationship back together. Then, for no apparent reason, he changed his mind.


This makes me feel bad, because my ex had the same feelings about me. I outranked him in the military, and also in terms of education and profession. Early on, he got off on that. But he came to feel that I "outranked" him emotionally too. I tried to be sensitive and accommodate him, but over time, being sensitive and accommodating him consumed most of the relationship. I needed him as much as he needed me, but he made demands that I couldn't sustain, under the circumstances that he required. So I think he left with a ground-down ego, and I left feeling like I worked my tail off and invested a lot, for nothing.


Because of how I knew my Aspie, this was very difficult for me to grasp. But I had occasion (accidentally) to observe interactions with his ex a couple of times. Whew. She was screaming and hostile, while he was meek and quiet. Like it was just noise, and all he wanted to know was what he had to do to make it stop. He allowed her to bully him because he was terrified of being separated from the kids, and of what would happen to them without him around. (She would have screamed ten times louder if she'd known those were the only reasons he was still there!)

The dynamic between us was NOTHING like that. We've argued, asked sharp questions, used harsh language, but an exchange of information takes place (if a bit garbled sometimes), and it's over. We don't go off nursing grudges and plotting retaliatory strikes, as our exes did. In my view, both of our marriages were doomed no matter what we did, because of one trait our exes have in common: the inability to de-escalate a conflict. That can't be the permanent, sole responsibility of just one partner. Even "the rational one" has the right to lose their sh*t sometimes, and be the one who needs placating.

I don't think my Aspie understands the parallel between his position in his marriage, and my position in mine. Not too long ago, he remarked that I have something in common with his ex. Disgusted, I said, "what, we're both female?" He looked a bit sheepish, and said it's that we both have strong personalities. I know he can tell the difference - sort of. But I gather that to AS men, the differences between NT women aren't as evident as they are to NT men. Anyone want to comment on that?

There must have been a reason. The only personality type I know of who does that sudden, permanent emotional desertion (usually followed by actual desertion) is narcissistic personality disorder.

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Ah, but you didn't LIKE the imbalance. In my ex's case, she actually put it into writing, in a letter, "you need me more than I need you." Professionally I suppose I was kind of higher-status, but that was mostly down to her needing to look after her kids (husband had deserted) and so being temporarily unemployable.....and the idea of professional status doesn't really enter into my view of a person's worth. It was purely the emotional dimension with us. And it was all bluff. She "ended" the relationship once, but it scared the living daylights out of her when I immediately took her at her word and packed my things.

I think it's not uncommon for people to find that what seemed attractive or fun during the early stages of a relationship starts to seem very threatening later, when the person is involved, and then it's hard to own the feelings. I've never had the luxury of a parther who could out-talk me in an argument about anything, though I don't encourage competitive discussion..........I can only recall one session of playful word-fighting, it was quite enjoyable, like acting a role from a film, and I asked afterwards, "we didn't just have a row did we?" and was told no, it was fine. It's interesting.........I don't know how important it is to feel able to have a gentle dig at a partner's behaviour.....it's not something I do readily.


I had pretty much a zero tolerance policy on yelling, for many years. Then I started to see how unhealthy it was, and tried staying the course when people around me were upset. I was rather proud of myself when I became the partner of a lady whose temper scared most people off very quickly.

I seemed to be good at pouring oil on troubled waters. But I didnt realise what it would do to me when I was walled up alive with it. She almost never attacked me directly with her words, but after a few days of exposure, I was fit to burst. One of the worst things was that she would interrupt me so quickly, before she could possibly have known what I was trying to say. And I guess it's infectious - I found myself going ballistic myself, and frankly it felt good when I stopped one of her rants by kicking over the coffee table and yelling my head off, but I felt that overall it might prove a dangerous way to proceed. A less dramatic method that worked was to stop talking and start writing......she stopped yelling and looked at what I was doing, I told her, she said that was a good idea. One time I just burst into tears and said that I couldn't cope with her kicking off all the time. But nothing had much effect on her temper until I told her I'd been checking out how to deal with an angry spouse and that if nothing else worked, I was likely going to have to leave the room for a little while. I don't think she ranted at me again after that, though her affections for me collapsed not long afterwards....it's hard to know whether losing her right to rant had killed her affection for me, or whether it was her loss of affection that killed her passion for ranting.


I agree 100% - yet I never saw it on anybody's list of requirements for a partner.


I do, but I need to have a think first.

Last edited by ToughDiamond on 10 May 2012, 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think you may be misunderstanding the issue here. I can distinguish differences between NT women - but the differences and the similarities I notice may not match those an NT would notice. (To some extent, of course, this is also something that varies between individuals, for many reasons.) I might ignore differences that are obvious to others, while picking up on other points that no one else seems to pay attention to. I "see" different details. (I put this in quotes because, although it is also literally true, due to my vision, that I notice different visual details and many optical illusions, say, don't work for me, even in instances where vision has nothing to do with it, my mind highlights different factors than what is "normal".

I think a lot of AS issues are like this. It isn't that we don't notice differences, it is that we don't notice the same differences NTs would expect us to. And I find myself having a similar reaction to NTs; "You don't notice that? How could you possibly miss it?" Our perspectives are so different that others think us more limited than we really are, because we're focused on such different points.

In the specific example you give, I think there are several issues at work. Certainly his basic neurology will influence what he sees, how easily he sees it, and so on. Then, there is the fact that he has never learned to distinguish between 'shades' of emotion, as you mentioned earlier. This suggests that, until or unless he does, he will have a harder time distinguishing 'shades' of personality that are too linked to emotion. Finally, of course, there is his personal history. If his ex's strong personality has been causing him so much trouble, it's a point he'd be personally sensitive on and notice - no matter that your strong personality is oriented in a very different direction than hers. On the other hand, the fact he looked sheepish when he answered you suggests that he either knows or suspects there is a difference.

That's another feature of my own mind that might be relevant. With issues that are so complex that I struggle with them (in his case, based on what you've said, I'd guess that would include for him all emotional issues) I often 'sense' there is something else, something I'm not quite able to identify or understand, long before I'm able to bring it into focus. And I might look sheepish in a similar situation, where I felt that I was missing something, or that I wasn't quite right, but didn't know how to do better yet.

We do seem to notice different patterns than most people. My father (who was never diagnosed, since he was born in the 1920s, but who was surely on the spectrum - he even had enough of a pronounced speech delay before he began talking that it was a family story) had an odd ability. In the course of his life, he dealt with various businesses, and every now and then he would announce that a certain one was shooting themselves in the foot. Whenever he did this, within about ten years, that business would either be in deep trouble, or cease to exist altogether. This was so even though most of them, at the time, seemed to be doing fine. It was something about the way they treated their customers. I can partially understand it, after listening to him talk about it and making my own observations. But it isn't anything any of those highly paid business consultants tend to spot.

Please don't misunderstand this next comment. I am not a "believer" - but I do tend to wonder if some "psychics" may be people who are on the spectrum, who have an ability to notice things most other people overlook. Whether they fool themselves, or simply use that ability to fool others, I think our ability to pick out different details than others focus on and then to extrapolate with reasonable accuracy from those could easily lead to such an outcome. I say this, in part, because when I was younger, there were occasions when people assumed I must have "supernatural" knowledge - when all I was doing was using my brain. These weren't all stupid people, either, although of course the stupid ones were that much more easily impressed.

I'm making such a big deal about this tendency to focus on different points because I know in my case it does apply to how I perceive others' personalities, and I very much suspect this is at the root of what you've experienced in your relationship.

What a dork I am! I just read this again. I read it too fast and didn't get it the first time. I was reading this thread looking for something and I'm like DUHH!! !! Read my reply and you'll see I was clueless!

I agree it is a concern, but the point is that you need to be aware of it. I'm a different individual, so I can't be certain how well this would apply (you do say he has a tendency to mistrust easily) but in my case, as long as I could see that, yes, there really hadn't been a good chance to tell me, I could accept that. But if a relationship developed, and it never came up, and then I suddenly learned it somehow, that's when I'd have a real problem with trusting the person. (And I will say that I'd assume anyone would have a much harder time trusting in that situation.) So my point isn't that you've already waited too long, my point is that you want to be the one to tell him before it slips out or he finds out somehow. (See my earlier post. I don't know how good he is in particular, but in general, I think because our minds are so different, it is harder to successfully hide things from us. At least, I know that's the case for me, and I've seen other posts here that suggest I'm not totally alone. That is in spite of the fact we can be naive and trusting in other ways, by the way. The listed traits are what an expert looks for, externally, to identify us. They are by no means a complete description of how we work.)



I don't know him, so I can't say that you're wrong. But there is a difference, at least in my mind. Those labels are not "official". They're insults, hurled by bullies. Most of the people who throw things like that around are easy enough not to take too seriously. A psychiatric diagnosis is "official" - even though you don't have the authority to issue a diagnosis, you are suggesting that, if you're right, society would officially slap this label on you. Everyone, not just the bullies. And it is a label which implies, not 'I'm a nasty jerk', but 'there's something wrong with you'. And even if he decides not to tell anyone else, you know. The point being, if you talk to him about this, by all means stay honest, but as much as you're convinced that AS is a difference, not a "disorder", you've got to make that incredibly plain to him. (My own view, by the way, is this: we have a different range of talents. We do some things worse, and some things better, than NTs. That is not a disorder, it is just having a different set of tools to work with.)

I am sensitive to the difference between the labels because I've experienced both. If anyone ever wanted to construct a bully trap, I'd make a great natural lure. I've been called just about every insult ever imagined. But I also grew up with a visible sign of something "wrong" with me, in my crossed eyes. Oddly, what I have is nothing like normal poor vision. It is more like AS; I have a different set of strengths. In addition to being a 'human scanner' which let me read faster than most people could believe, when I used to collect stamps and go to stamp shows, I'd regularly freak out the dealers with the details I could pick out on their stamps. I had to hold them very close to my face, but then I'd point out things they'd struggle to see using a magnifier. And, although I'm not sure just how much of this is my physical vision and how much is due to my neurology, I also notice different things when looking at anything. Sometimes, that can be incredibly useful, even if other times it makes things harder. But, in spite of my personal opinion, for most of society, my eyes are a sign of something "wrong" with me. And I am a lot more sensitive about any label that refers to my eyes than I ever was at being called anything else.



I can only speak for myself here, but I haven't sensed anything disrespectful in the way you've referred to him. (If I had, and I didn't have the energy to call you out on it right then, I'd simply be ignoring you and hoping you'd go away. It isn't the label itself, it is how it is used. The friend I mentioned in another post (the one who died in high school) used to make jokes about my vision - and it didn't bother me at all. I know what I just said above, too. The point is that, for him, it was just another detail about me, like the colour of my hair or how tall I was. So he teased me about it the way he'd tease me about anything else. I actually liked that. People who studiously ignore the reality and try to pretend I am exactly like them just emphasise, in a completely different way, how aware they are of my differences. Many of them mean well, and I can at least respect that they're doing the best they know how to treat me decently, but it is still uncomfortable. As for those who are obviously using their silence to beat me over the head with it while avoiding appearing too much like bullies - they are the worst of all. I'd rather the stupid jerks who used to beat me up and call me names. Again, if you're going to approach this at all, you need to understand what it's like from the other side, even if my experience is with a different label.

As for separating AS from everything else, I think that will be a lifelong process for you. For one thing, recent science is beginning to suggest that one reason there is a "spectrum" and not one easily defined group - aside from the obvious fact we are all individuals - is that the factors which cause individuals to be grouped in that spectrum may have similar but not identical results, and may be due to a number of different genetic factors. Specifically, a gene has recently been identified that is linked to autism - but only to a very limited number of cases of autism. There does not seem to be any one gene, any one cause.



It does apply to NTs, but I don't think equally so. I regularly notice NTs making a deliberate decision to ignore reality, because it makes them too uncomfortable. Many of them have said to me "I don't want to know" when speaking of various matters. To me, every untruth, however minor, every evasion of the truth or refusal of knowledge, is a major earthquake that leaves cracks in that foundation. And it seems to me that a similar attitude lies beneath our much stronger tendency to cling to the truth. I was the only kid I knew who actually used to admit it when I got caught doing something wrong, or confronted about it. I knew it wasn't in my short-term best interest - and I was perfectly capable of imagining other answers. But I wasn't able to bring myself to rip up reality in that way. Now, once the world around me accused me of lying when I wasn't so many times that I finally gave up, I certainly did lie after that. Even now, I'm capable of it, but I very much prefer to avoid it.



Yes, it is. I meant to recommend this, anyway, but this reminded me. One very good thing to get him to read - if you can - would be the "Father Brown mysteries" by G. K. Chesterton. I'm not sure if you've ever read them (seeing the mess television made of them is not the same thing at all), but perception is an underlying theme which Chesterton had an immense amount of fun playing with. There's a huge collection of short stories, the important point being that any one of them doesn't take too long to read. You could find one you knew would catch his interest, and point him at that. It might hook him on the others. (If he really doesn't want to, pushing an Aspie is never a good idea. Better to climb into a cage with a hungry tiger to eat a nice, hot baconburger under its nose... )

I'm hampered by the fact that as far as I know, nearly all the women I've known particularly well have been either autistic, introverted, uniquely extreme, or a mixture of those......only one partner, my first, could be described as both NT and moderate. I worked for some time with a group of 3 probably NT girls/women for some years.......there were large differences between them. Another lady, one who rejected my attentions, we never got very close but her nature was very different to the other three, she had more integrity and the skill of making me feel at ease, which the other three didn't have. They had different senses of humour. I'm vaguely aware of some vibrating social mass of mainstream NTs out there, and I tend to imagine they're all pretty similar, but I know very little about them.

Would you say that most NT women are somewhat "girly" ? If so it might explain why I've not dealt with them so much.

So all in all, I'd say I'm as aware of their individual differences as anybody, though it generally takes me a good while to weigh up any new person, and there definitely was a time when I could barely tell one girl from another.

Strong personalities - well it's a broad term........I can't imagine he doesn't know the difference between the outbursts of his ex and your measured challenges.......I've often been quite sensitive to what was probably only well-intended aggression from people, but I think my threat detectors are better refined in that respect these days. A lot of it can be in the tone of voice and how in my face the body language is, as much as what's said.

I agree with theWanderer that Aspies tend to notice what others don't and vice versa. It's as if we use a different coloured light to everybody else.

I can only answer that based off of my friends and family that are NT women. I think most of them are somewhat "girly". However there are a few that just don't care about the typical "girly"stuff. The don't ask masculine, they're just not into all the hair, nails and clothes like some of the other are. Their are varying degrees of "girly".

Yes I thought there must be a partial correlation. Makes sense. I suppose I don't feel safe with girlies, they seem to operate on a very different wavelength to me.

Right, I loathed the imbalance, and did everything I could think of to bolster his ego and even things out. But he had very deep insecurities that I was powerless to influence. He was happiest when my life was at a dead end, and he was all I had.

Professional status doesn't really enter into my view of a person's worth either. But (especially now), it does enter into my view of whether they have mainly an internal or external locus of control, their ability and willingness to commit to long-term goals, and their passion for something other than leisure time. It's even reflected in the bedroom. My ex seemed to think that all he had to do was show up and look good - exactly his attitude about work. Maximal reward for minimal effort. I totally reject that attitude, and he couldn't/wouldn't change it. So I had to decide whether I could continue living with it, and I decided no.


I think that is a perfectly reasonable, acceptable way to cut off a damaging, pointless argument. With my ex, I'd simply go for a long walk (and have a good cry), and leave him there to stew in all his own garbage. I'd tell him to compose himself while I was gone and present his main point when I returned. It rarely worked, because he didn't have a point. And he would realize that, which made him resent me. If he had been my teenage son, that would have been fine. But I was his wife, not his mother, so that wasn't fine.


How true! I think my Aspie and I are both trying to re-adjust, after having borne the responsibility for defusing conflict for so long. Following a disagreement, I've sensed a bit of surprise (on both ends), like "oh, that's it?" We have a similar style, in that we are interrogators. Answering our questions with complete honesty is the best way to calm us down. We've both done it to each other, so gradually a sense of balance and equality is developing.

Take our rendezvous, for example. I was upset when he backed out and I wanted an explanation. I noted that I'd asked him a few weeks earlier if he was nervous, and he'd said no. Had the situation been reversed, I know exactly what he would have asked me, so I put the question to him: "So were you lying then, or are you lying now?" He replied, "well, it's just more real now." I suspected as much, but I expected him to have thought things through first. He hadn't - and there was really nothing to be done about it. In a way, I'm glad we've had a "practice conflict" or two. We know what the sex will be like - no worries there - but in the long-term, constructive conflict resolution will be even more important, and that takes practice with a new partner.

XD Sorry but when you did reply. I didn't want to tell you, I'd rather let others figure it out for themselves. =]

that was sweet of you!