Women SAY they want nice guys ...

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If you have to sacrifice energy to please your partner, you are with the wrong partner. That simple. And nobody picked that partner but you.

If a man and a woman work the same number of hours per week, why should he feel entitled to sit around and guzzle beer and watch TV while she grocery shops, cooks dinner, and then cleans up after both of them and probably does a load of laundry--both his and hers--after she gets home from work? Conversely, if the man is the one doing all the housework while the little princess goes shopping or spends hours on the phone with her friends, why does he put up with that?

Yes, relationships are work. Work for both partners, theoretically about equally. If you're doing all the work, pick a different partner. That goes for men or women. Some people out there possibly don't deserve a partner for no other reason than that they expect the other person to do ALL the work. If men stopped catering to the whiny princesses, and women stopped catering to the a**hole bad boys, those types would eventually have to change their ways or end up forever aloooooooooone.

...(Had been making a trek towards the dating scene but now backs away slowly...)


....

(Bolts out the door)

MadeUnderground: You seem highly unlikely to have these problems, since you appear to be willing to communicate with women. Fear not (or at least, I'd think you wouldn't have to fear, but I don't know you personally.)

s**t, I'll go a bit further and say that in my experience, everything having to do with a relationship is work, and that it should, literally, be normal to have to do things you don't want to do or adapt to someone you're in a relationship with.

It's par for the course, to borrow golf a little.

The question is where the line is for you, which can change throughout your life. When I was in my early twenties, the line was way the f**k out for me. I worked constantly for the other person, partially because I was worried they'd dump me otherwise, since I'm a weirdo (I'm an Aspie, I had a super sh***y childhood, and I'm on the way far end of IQ scores), and partially because they seemed to expect me to do so.

As I've aged, the line has receded quite a bit. I am willing to work, but I'm unwilling to do all the work. This doesn't make me impossible to date--in fact, as I've mentioned before, I tend to only be single for very long if I want to be. Plus, as I've aged, I've discovered that I'm more psychologically healthy when I have set expectations for how much work they should be doing.

Some of this is tied to gender. Like it or lump it, we pick ideas, concepts and ways of living/communicating from the cultures we live in. Even Aspies pick it up. We can't help it. We're pack animals--we are harmed by a lack of social contact, and I say this as someone whose primary statistically significant relationship (XKCD) is with her computer.

We're just *lucky* in some ways because we're unalterably different and this gives us the chance to introspect on our behaviors and try to make different choices.

I'd also like to point out, as this conversation has made obvious, that due to the way we're educated about gender, the work we do and the things we want are often hidden from one another. It is difficult to look across gender lines because everything we've learned about gender obscures who the person is. The real work of a relationship, in my opinion, is figuring out how to see the other person despite our conditioning and theirs. Sometimes, you can't.

Sometimes, you can actually be in a relationship with them and see them. This would be, as far as I'm concerned, the optimal condition. And maybe you don't like what you see, sure. And maybe you decide they're not for you, sure. But the communication issue is inalienably effected by gender and socialization.

I keep getting the feeling that I have claimed women must do a certain thing for men just because we/I am a man.

I have never said anything in my posts about women being obligated to do anything for men whatever background,color or religion they come from.
But I have shown my dislike for their what seems reoccurring poor choices when it comes to men. But that was way back when we we're talking about the quality or a Nice/Boring Guy, but as I've said before titles like that are stupid.

My focus was from the start on the wants and needs of women and what they expected from a partner. Ever picky, but always the unhappiest.

I guess my refusal of seeing things your way has given you the impression of that I'm a angry lonely boy who's gotten way to many rejections. You are free to think that. That's cool.


The only thing I'll agree to is that relationships are a meet in the middle and a combined effort from both parts.

What makes this so messy is that one craves physical things from an emotional being and the other emotion from a physical being.

So you're a nice guy who slings vicious insults because someone hasn't picked you. Not very nice.

What she's actually describing is most men, particularly men past the "must impress the woman" stage. People actually make careers studying this stuff, and yes, men expect wives/girlfriends they live with to be mom. Except sexy. And they do indeed feel ill-used if the women don't turn up more or less on demand, do for them, or stay attractive -- even if they know it's ridiculous behavior. They also expect applause for doing some of the work while their wives/gfs are doing most of the work -- and reciprocation is often manipulative rather than sincere ("if I praise her for X she'll let me off the hook for Y"). Are there men who don't do this, I expect so, but I'll let you know when I meet one.

I think you are very confused about what you think. Also, you are not very good at paying attention. I am typing this on a tiny phone so cannot point by point demonstrate what I am referring to, but there have been three different women at least in the last couple of pages that you appear to have grouped under my username. Idk if that was accidental.

you last sentence is an example of what i would call blind givensies. People are not just emotional or just physical, although that may indeed be your personal experience. As I keep alluding to theory of mind, it is worth remembering that as an Aspie, both males and females may struggle with practicing this in comparison to NTs.

The bolded parts are what I personally disagree with. That may be the case in your experience, because those are the kind of woman you choose to have relationships with. But saying they're all that way? No different (and no more true) than the seemingly collectively held belief here that women only want "bad boys."

I've yet to be with a man who was less emotional than I am. Maybe that's because I'm an Aspie, but, hell, my late fiance was an Aspie (and way more "typically" Aspie-like than me), and even he was more emotional than I was/am. So I've gotta call BS on this.

I agree with the italicized part.

That's what I call a child. And women who get to that point where they go cleaning up socks after their partners like maids should rethink things to next time. But apparently I'm informed that it has happened with every dude she dated.

There is clearly something wrong here.


Yes, I'm a nice guy who slings viscous insults. If you class that as being vicious.
(Pick me? Not this again. I'm not a sexually frustrated boy. I'ts important to note.)

No I'm just sloppy with my reasoning and answers because I see no point in continuing this conversation.
You swiftly saw me as as frustrated guy who whined because no girl would ever look his way. And I was slightly doomed there in your eyes/minds.

And I'm aware I clumped some responses in your box. I figured the information will reach those who read anyway.

There are some insightful points made by all, but my emphasis was from the start on womens reasoning when it comes to partner choice. That got lost while responding and insulting everyone. n__n


Relationships, hard work. I agree on that.


I won't bother this thread again.

Quoted for posterity.

nice to the girl AND himself. a gentleman with self-respect is the best kind of man.

a "nice guy" that gets friend zoned is not being nice to himself because he tries to please his rejector female friend, each time expecting a better result.
he isn't really being "nice" to the girl either. from my perspective, such behavior is insulting. it's like saying, "well, i think this back rub or free meal will make you think twice about why you don't want to sleep with me."

He is acting nice while expecting to be rewarded for it. This is a low-level PUA tactic. Yes, it is insulting, as it falsely assumes that all women are alike. It is also ignorant, as it falsely assumes that there is one specific key to unlock the resistance of every woman.

Such men do not seem to realize that every woman is different, with different standards, different desires, and different attitudes about relationships in general.

Those men would be better off to stop trying so desperately hard, and make something of themselves that will attract women -- again, to acquire women's interest, a man must be interesting to women. Education, talent, and job skills are a good start. Community service and volunteerism are also helpful. A calm, cheerful attitude, coupled with patience and general kindness will go a long way toward attracting a woman, and keeping her interested for years to come.

Well I certainly would not want to date a mean guy....but they'd have to be more than 'nice' to catch my interest, if that is all there is about them then I imagine it could get boring pretty quick.

Obviously, it is now time to close this thread.