What DOESN'T count as Nice Guy behavior?

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Yes, I strongly believe when a single man and single woman are both friends and at least under 30, it's very likely one of them will develop feelings for the other, typically the male.

My estimated/the most common timeframe I've seen is after about 2 years of friendship, but for many of us (i.e. me) we fall much sooner or much later.

This means many males eventually will fall into unrequited love with a woman.

Men are more likely to fall for their female friends, women are very unlikely to fall for their male friend.

Men are also more likely to give a female friend who is emotionally attracted to him but he isn't emotionally attracted to a chance at a relationship, while the opposite is very rare.

"As I said, I have befriended people I was romantically attracted to"

Why are you advising people not to when you have before? Do you continue to befriend those you are romantically attracted to?

If so, I'd stop if you don't want to appear hypocritical for criticizing others that do just like you, and may or may not have less control over their emotions and end up only frustrated and hurt the other person doesn't feel the same.

"So the best advice I can give, if you're a man don't get too close to your female friends. That way no disappointment, or frustration will develop."

Do you think it's possible to be friends with a female without EVER falling?

I honestly wish I genuinely could be friends with females and am trying, but the effort seems futile.

The easy answer would be then... don't date people solely based on appearance and don't expect to get a 10 when you're a 6. The only time I see this kind of crap happen is with interracial relationships with a white person - the white person is never higher than a 6, usually a 4 or lower, and the non white person is never lower than a 7.

It's frankly not easy for me to date and most people identify me as a woman. It's easy to find men who want to have sex with me but that's not what I'm looking for and most of them are skeevy as f*ck anyways.

You're assuming it's easy for women to date because men are desperate but that doesn't make things easy for dating it makes things easy to find someone who wants to have sex with you. Not to mention even when they do want more than sex it doesn't mean they're interesting lol. There's a lot of men with the personality of an Addis sandal.

Dating is a lot more than just attraction. A good relationship has shared interests and shared values and good communication. Someone simply thinking someone else is attractive doesn't mean a damn thing.

My wife is black. I'm white. We both rate about a 6 in terms of looks. We are equal in looks.

Did you read nothing I said? I said don't befriend someone if you can't handle being their friend, and don't befriend someone if you don't even want to be their friend.

I don't befriend people I'm interested in with any expectation of a relationship and I befriend them because I see them as someone I want to be friends with.

Also just because you have hurt feelings doesn't give you the right to be rude to someone. If someone politely rejects you you don't get to be horrible to them, at least not if you're a mature adult. My best friend started dating the guy I was interested in in middle school and I was f*****g pissed at her (and she deserved it because she knew I liked him and she was interested in someone else and barely knew him), but I wasn't angry at him because he didn't owe me anything romantic. Yes, I was upset and hurt, but I didn't allow it to effect how I treated him.

I fall for my male (and female) friends all the time so I don't know what the hell you're talking about. A lot of women do. The difference is we don't feel entitled to their interest and don't treat them like they dirt if they reject us.

"Did you read nothing I said? I said don't befriend someone if you can't handle being their friend, and don't befriend someone if you don't even want to be their friend."

Well not everyone can accurately determine if they can be 'just friends' with someone without an attraction developing, or continue a friendship despite their attraction that develops after being friends.

It is hypocritical to say to anyone they should not be doing something that you do as well just because they may be less skilled at handling it than you are.

Maybe they just aren't as sure if they can handle it or not, so they do end up becoming extremely frustrated and depressed because they couldn't handle it.

I'm not trying to victimize them, but I'm not trying to antagonize them either. It just is what it is. Some people who fall into the trap of unrequited love for a friend may become very frustrated or upset the other person doesn't feel the same.

And I personally don't consider them a bad person for it. Then again, I'm a tolerant person and my standards for what constitutes a 'bad' person or bad behavior is a lot worse than the general population's.

I'm approaching this neutrally - I'm not criticising them, or supporting them. Simple.

"I don't befriend people I'm interested in with any expectation of a relationship and I befriend them because I see them as someone I want to be friends with."

Me too, before I develop unwanted feelings. So you can't say all of us who end up interested in a friend romantically who isn't interested back didn't try to end up this way.

"Also just because you have hurt feelings doesn't give you the right to be rude to someone."

Of course not, I just said that people sometimes are and sometimes do.

And I don't necessarily have a problem with that.

I don't be rude to others myself if I have hurt feelings, it's just that I'm neutral on the matter and don't support nor oppose those that are.

"My best friend started dating the guy I was interested in in middle school and I was f*****g pissed at her (and she deserved it because she knew I liked him and she was interested in someone else and barely knew him), but I wasn't angry at him because he didn't owe me anything romantic. Yes, I was upset and hurt, but I didn't allow it to effect how I treated him."

Yes I am the same.

"I fall for my male (and female) friends all the time so I don't know what the hell you're talking about. A lot of women do. The difference is we don't feel entitled to their interest and don't treat them like they dirt if they reject us."

It just looks and feels relatively rare(r), at least for me, all of my male friends, almost every male aqcuaintance i've had, and a variety of personal ancedotes from dozens to hundreds of young men aged 15-25 on forums and websites, especially Reddit.

Stereotypically, it is men who are 'friendzoned' and not women, but it happens to women as well.

Also, how many of these male friends were actually willing to give you a chance and have been on at least one date with you?

Finally, you seem to be addressing my points personally and directed towards me.

It's not me I'm talking about - I was talking about other men.

The only way I was addressing myself is that I fall for female friends and they never fall for me, and this is the same for my male friends as well.

Otherwise I was speaking generally, specifically about 'nice guy' men.

I'm trying to defend nice guys and simply say I disagree with the people that say they are 'a55høles'.

They're certainly NOT actual 'nice guys', not at all, but i don't consider most of them a55høles either.

Most people are horrible and 'nice guys' are just what I'd consider NORMAL.

People who are rude or speak badly about others behind their backs, isn't that NORMAL before at least 30?

Maybe not for 'mature adults' than, but if so, there ain't many of them out there then, is there?

Just remember, I'm a pessimist who expects the worst in people, and it's very disappointing that I have not been disappointed.

All you're doing is proving it's easy for you. So, you don't get the attention you want, but still get attention. Most women in that case when talking to a guy would tell them to lower their standards. Most guys barely have standards as it is. So, in short; you do have it easier, you just have higher standards. But but but but, the guys that want me are like this and they aren't interesting. Aren't interesting how? Do they not have a job, do they not have a car, do they not make the right jokes? See, this only proves my point, not disproves it.

Most of them it didn't come to that because I didn't confess my interest because I don't like disturbing the status quo, and I can't really read other people's behavior so I don't want to say anything because I don't want to make someone uncomfortable. It doesn't bother me in the same way I guess. I focus on other things, eventually become interested in other people. I'm usually fairly upset during that time period, but I'm good at keeping those feelings out of our interactions the same way I do the romantic ones and I don't hate them and I'm not upset with them. I'm upset with myself.

If it really bothers someone that much that's when they need back up and ask the person for some space. If the person ask why explain why and make it known that they still want to be the person's friend in the future but they need some space for their own well being. It's much better than taking something that isn't their fault out on them. I've never had to, but I would if I needed to.

I've only dated two of my male friends before, one I'd been interested in for probably like 4 years (though it had been put back burner for like the middle two years, and I was interested in other people more directly during that time) and the other was that dude who freaked out when I broke up with him and blamed his own actions on me. I'm sure if I'd confessed there would have been some rejections. And I would have been upset but it also would have been a relief to get an explicit confirmation that they weren't interested so I could move on faster instead of sitting around with "what ifs."

For God's sake I don't give a s**t about people's jobs and cars. It's literally entirely about their personality. If a guy talks about things I find boring consistently or has a bad sense of humor, I'm not interested (like I once met this guy who took sex way too seriously and thought joking about sex in any capacity was dumb and seemed almost offended like I was mocking something sacred. Yawn). That's boring. Sense of humor and shared interests are literally the biggest factors in whether or not I'm going to be interested. I'm not looking for someone to support me lmao. The last dude I was interested in literally worked at a pizza place and walked everywhere.

If I was looking for monetary support I wouldn't bother looking for someone who I was interested in because that would narrow down my options. If you're going to make it about money you might as well make that you're entire focus since you don't genuinely want them for them in this instance, you want them for what they have.

"You're assuming it's easy for women to date because men are desperate but that doesn't make things easy for dating it makes things easy to find someone who wants to have sex with you. Not to mention even when they do want more than sex it doesn't mean they're interesting lol. There's a lot of men with the personality of an Addis sandal."

50 skeevy men approaching you only for 1 or 2 of them to be a decent person is better than having to pursue 50 skeevy women only for 1 or 2 of them to be a decent person.

It is harder to pursue than be pursued.

I hear a lot of men complain women get to be approached more, and women complain that's NOT true because most of the men that approach them are bad.

But it's essentially the same deal for men too.

A man might have to sort through just as many skeevy women to find a good woman just as a woman being constantly approached by skeevy men would have to figure out which ones are the good men.

But approaching takes far more confidence and effort, especially having to put in the work to make a good first impression onto others.

"For God's sake I don't give a s**t about people's jobs and cars. It's literally entirely about their personality."

But some people believe a good house, car and job and degree is the sign a person has a good personality (hardworking, etc.)

Do you believe this too?

Is someone with a university degree more hardworking, dedicated and educated than someone who is a high school dropout?

"Sense of humor and shared interests are literally the biggest factors in whether or not I'm going to be interested."

Does this include values? Such as hardworking, dedicated and educated?

Are you more likely to assume a man has shared values if he has a job/is educated/owns a car than one that is living at home, jobless and uneducated?

Even if you aren't, some other people, men and women, may be.

Nevermind the fact the unemployed guy living at home is an aspie, he's looking hard for work but can't hold down a job, he can't afford university education as degree prices are increasing, and he's from a working/lower middle class background...

and nevermind the university degree graduate with a higher earning income and good car might have been born from a rich family who payed his way through private school and university...

some may only see the lower class person as lazy, entitled brat and the uni graduate as hardworking, dedicated and educated, even if it might be the complete opposite.

"I'm not looking for someone to support me lmao."

But are you directly looking for someone YOU might have to support? E.g. if you have a higher income and a car, could you date someone you'd have to support, e.g. unemployed and reliant on you for transporation from time-to-time and pays for gas?

"The last dude I was interested in literally worked at a pizza place and walked everywhere."

But he still had a job. He probably might have lived on his own too.

Someone who has no job and lives with their parents and walks everywhere is generally considered to be of lower social status and rank than someone who at least has a job and lives alone.

You still probably, possibly, potentially, could have standards.

Not high standards, not unrealistic standards, but still standards nonetheless.

Okay, so maybe you wouldn't care if a man was unemployed, still lived at home and didn't drive, but...would you assume, before a first date, that he has poorer values than an employed man who lives alone and has a nice car and a university degree.

If you were to be given the choice to go on a blind date with one of them, without knowing anything about either, who would you assume has better values? Which one may possibly be more likely to be hardworking, dedicated and educated in your opinion?

Would you just choose either of the men randomly, or would something possibly influence your choice? Why?

Their personality would be the main factor for me. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat this. I don't care about where they attended college (if they did at all), where they live, what they do for a living (if they're working), or what/if they drive. None of that can make up for an ugly personality.

Values to me are moral values. I don't want to date someone who I think is a bigot. If I even caught a hint of that type of thought i would lose interest. I'm interested in people who care about other people. That's values to me. A lot of people are selfish and I don't want to be around someone who cares only about things that effect them personally.

"Nevermind the fact the unemployed guy living at home is an aspie, he's looking hard for work but can't hold down a job, he can't afford university education as degree prices are increasing, and he's from a working/lower middle class background..."

Considering the fact that you're describing my situation why would I judge someone else for this?

If I had the income to support someone else I would have no problem doing it. It wouldn't bother me. My only expectation in that scenario would be that they help keep the living space clean. I would do the same if I was the SO who was being supported.

He didn't live on his own, he lived with his family. And I was aware of that at the time, and it didn't bother me.

And I do have standards, you're right. It's why I'm single. Because I'm not willing to compromise on my moral stances, which means I may be single indefinitely when combined with other factors.

As for the blind date I wouldn't go on a blind date so that null and void. I wouldn't go on a date with someone without knowing enough about them, that things wouldn't be awkward and miserable. In this scenario I'd choose neither because I'm being asked to meet someone I know nothing about, which I would never and have never done.

Why would anyone date someone they have to support? I don't think women should be penalised for not wanting to work and support someone else if they don't put in the effort

You answer that just by asking it: Yeah, why WOULD anyone want to date someone they have to support?

Some people may believe if you are disadvantaged/behind others your age, that must mean they have to support you when this might not be true at all.

Some men or women might believe a man or woman who is living at home, unemployed, not studying and does not drive yet will have to rely on them just to live life, when this might not be true at all.

People will naturally believe someone living away from home, employed, has a college degree and a car, etc. obviously can take care of themselves better.

A lot of the time this is true, but not always - maybe the successful person had a lot of help that the unsuccessful person doesn't, maybe the successful person is secretly very depressed and miserable or otherwise has an unattractive personality and the 'unsuccessful' poor person has the one thing the successful person doesn't have - happiness.

I often make a big deal out of socio-economic status as I do believe it's a big thing in love and dating, and completely changes what people think about you/how they percieve you, at least before they get to know you well.

But some might not give you a chance even if attracted to you due to their own biases and misconceptions and pre-judgements before discovering who you are and your values.

"
Their personality would be the main factor for me. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat this."

Sorry about that.

I just find it hard to believe as up until now, for me at least you are saying an unbelievable/rare thing.

I know I'm fresh out of high school so I've actually spent most of my time around girls who don't care about socio-economic status, career, education level, etc. but I still know from the internet and the experiences of various adults both male and female that they certainly care about all of those things or use those things to evaluate another person's character, e.g. person with job = hardworking/successful. Unemployed = lazy.

It's all downhill from here.

When in high school, teen girls and boys have immature taste and just go for the best looking, but even when people's taste 'matures' this isn't good for everyone as girls and boys go from wanting the best looking person to the richest/most educated/most 'successful'.

Any confident high school dropout with no future and decent looks could have attracted a decent girl in high school, now he's seen as the lazy low-life lacking in proper 'values'.

That or a decent guy in an unfortunate situation might be misjudged as going 'nowhere' in life when they're going as many directions in life as they can.

Unfortunate newsflash: Not all of us aspie males are the shy, socially awkward, average looking nerd kid that was bullied in high school and awkward with girls but then gets a successful career, 'grows into his looks' and ends up with a successful career and a happy marriage.

Some of us aspie men aren't the lovable loser who ends up becoming successful, some of us simply remain unemployed/on disability for a good part of our early 20s at least, may begin our university studies at a delayed age, start driving at a more delayed age, and still remain awkward with women.

"It gets better" is B.S. advice.

Even if most of us are trying, for a lot of us the effort seems futile and things AREN'T getting better.

This is probably the most negative post I've made on this website, and I think I've just used up all the negativity in me for the night, possibly even week.

And it's not you I'm talking about, or alliekit - it's other people.

Aspie women seem to have minority/rare views.

That or lower-middle class men and women in general tend to care less about money and more about values, but most of the people I am exposed to are middle class lucky b-stards.

My family is lower middle class and I meet other LMC through them, but I rarely relate or seem to get along barely with my own family, let alone them.

Might sound arrogant of me, but I take care of my health and appearance and hygiene, most lower middle class girls I meet through family have the redneck/bogan/unclean/unhygienic look to them and generally in poor health.

They also have no sophistication or class.

Like my family, I dislike uptight/snobby people myself, but unlike my family and family friends, I still like to have SOME common decency for myself and behavior.

My Uncle had no shame in rubbing poop onto his hand, rub it on a public bus window (the bus was empty aside from me, him and family, the last woman on the bus wasted our time) and moon her as well. She saw it. Whole family laughed.

Sh*t like this (pun intended) is just absolutely disgusting and perfectly describes the sociopathic low-life redneck types my family are and the people I meet through them.

I'd love to date another lower middle class girl, one with a poorer background and would have more understanding and less care of my money and education level, but it seems, like me, they are a rare gem in redneck/bogan type families.

They have no sense of hygiene or care for their health, no ambition, no class, and the one I have met who does and have strong feelings for to this day is a female friend who will NEVER feel the same.

Your uncle really did that---rub poop on a bus window?

I've never met "bogan, redneck" people who would do that.

Sounds like he is out of his mind.

Again...did he really do that? If so, why?

That's something a two-year-old who's frustrated about potty training would do.

A woman on the bus requested the bus driver take her to a place not actually scheduled as an official stop, thus wasting my family and I's time on our way to a family dinner outing.

I'm mature enough to let such things pass, but my step-dad and two uncles had real issue with it and, long-story short, yes, that story is true.

That story describes my family and most of the people I meet through them in a nutshell.

The males = toilet humor, immaturity, brashness, brutishness, rowdy, perversion, aggression/anger issues, unemployed/underemployed, undereducated, etc.

The women are...better...slightly...they have more self-control at least and more mature than the men. But still unemployed, high school dropout, "16 and pregnant" (or younger), smokers/drinkers types with an interest in men who only tend to end up abusing them ('bad boys').

I can't meet decent girls through family and I know this already, the one lower middle class girl I have met who lives similar to the way I do is basically a female version of myself and has that ambition/want for a better life I have too, but we're 'just friends'.

Like I said, my family are very known to enjoy mocking the upper middle class and upper class for being snobby and uptight but I've always been known as the one in the family actually having some sense of decency and standards. I learnt from the best - my mother.

QFT.
Most men are good people, and most women are good people - it's just that the ones who aren't cause *huge* damage to the people who try to get close to them.

Here's another few rules of thumb for people of either gender: don't be friends with people whose behavior you wouldn't put up with unless they were sleeping with you, and don't sleep with someone you can't be friends with.

Last edited by LKL on 24 Jun 2016, 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.