Why do women always like to mess with guys?

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My father left us with a little baggage. It took time for each of us to work through that and understand my own patterns. I needed to understand how I was intentionally chosing men there was no hope for a long term relationship with. Which is why you will see me tell people on this forum that you have to live your life for you, and be confident and comfortable with that, before you can be successful in a long term relationship. Spending time whinning about what you don't have gets you nowhere. Its when I finally figured that out, and enjoyed my life as it was, that I met my husband. I don't look back and regret any of it. Every bit of those years was necessary to grow and really become "me."

The things I miss from my single days? Having so much money and traveling when and where I wanted. And all the freebies from my clients. But that has more to do with adding kids to the mix than adding a spouse. I wouldn't trade the kids for the world, though, so I'm glad I was able to do all those things once. They were cool, but there is also, now, a "been there, done that" element.

I hear you. Baggage is a big factor for a lot of folks when it comes to stuff like this, NT and Aspie alike.

What I tend to notice on this part of the forum is that there tends to be a lot of guys here in various stages of figuring out women and life, but for the most part, most of the guys who post are struggling and in need or either a helping hand or a comforting voice. Sadly, most knowledge of how to date women isn't taught formally anywhere, but is handed down father to son, or friend to friend (like an older mentor guy teaching a younger guy the ropes). When you don't have that structure in place, a guy ends up spinning his wheels a lot in frustration. You see a lot of those kinds of guys here.

Such was the case for me -- my parents were both pretty clueless, didn't have much advice to offer, and neither did my friends, most of whom I was already outperforming. This isn't to say I was doing well, but rather that my friends were doing much worse. So when everyone in your peer groups tells you "I don't know" when you are asking for advice, it becomes a very frustrating and almost self-destructive situation as the guy flails around for help, wants to vent, etc. The urge to reproduce is strong, and a young guy, in his sexual prime, can feel like a nobody (or even suicidal) when this urge isn't alleviated. It's one of the main reasons (no joke) why there is so much violence in the mideast, for instance. Not getting a girlfriend or a wife conjures a real sense of failure and hopelessness.

I think this forum is a good outlet for guys who have nowhere to turn, either because of limited peers or embarrassment. When they vent here or ask for advice, other guys, who maybe have done better since the frustrating days (like me), can ring in and reassure them that things will get better, or tell them what steps to take. So as a woman, it may get annoying to see the same threads over and over again, but a person in the midst of a major crisis like this isn't going to use the Search function. I'm always glad to repeat myself to spare someone else some of the angst I felt -- at least now we have message boards to facilitate this.

The pressures on women and men are definitely different in many ways. Since most young men don't acknowledge wanting children, at least not "yet," I tend to forget that all that hormonal stuff is actually driven by nature trying to procreate. Kind of like society getting men to shoot themselves in the foot, eh? Heighten that drive and urge, but make it the norm to want to postpone the family part.

The pressure for women, at least when I was young, comes from image. Regardless of all the progress women have made, you just aren't a real woman without a relationship - that is the message society constantly bombards young women with. You implied the same thing in your earlier post, asking me "what was wrong" if I in those years I was by myself. It's always the assumption with a woman, even in the young years, that if you aren't dangling on a man's arm, something is wrong with you. So, for women, getting past that assumption in their own minds is definitely the first hurdle. Stop trying to find a man just so people stop asking all those annoying questions.

Men, at least, get to play it cool a la George Clooney and pretend they like being alone. Society still accepts that much more from a man than from a woman. But, given the different sexual peak ages, I guess the hormones are a bit more overwhelming for young men. By the age of 40, when women peak, they usually have found their own solutions.

So what is more difficult? Everyone treating you like you must be broken - and you believing it - for not having a man yet, or hormones driving you to madness because you aren't with a woman and every instinct in your body is driving you to be? I can't answer that one.

It is not, btw, that easy for women to get men, despite assumptions. I know many wonderful women, nothing broken about them, who will die without ever marrying.

DW -- "What's wrong with you" was me being a bit snarky, but there is a nugget of truth to it. In my experience, a woman not in a relationship is usually there by choice, since even the least attractive or lowest tier woman seems to be able to find a man. I've found that most women who aren't in a relationship don't want to be, either because they are overly picky or uncomfortable (like several men and women on these very forums) with that level of intimacy. I think society in general finds it hard to deal with terminal loners or asexual folks -- it's just not the norm, and not easily understood.

Also -- I don't find women to be terribly great judges of what women should or shouldn't be attractive to men (and vice versa). If you showed those same women to some brutally frank men, they could probably pinpoint the issue. It's possible that a lot of the men here in similar straits need that kind of brutal advice from women in their lives who see and know them. It's the little things that are invisible to our own gender that sometimes do the worst damages to our prospects, and all the positive reinforcement in the world from well-meaning friends won't change that.

I would say overall it's worse for men. Men run into these issues earlier in life, and a bad experience here can cripple him emotionally for a long time to come, including during the period at which things finally even up and odds become equal. Women, on the other hand, start out at the peak of their popularity in the teen years, and it declines from there. While George Clooney is a nice positive example of a single older guy, the reality is that older, lonely men die earlier than their female counterparts, and are more likely to commit suicide and have feelings of hopelessness. And I would agree that being old and lonely isn't a very positive outlook for either gender.

That's a good point. At least in my experience, it has been true that women aren't good at at brutal assessment of what about a particular woman is and isn't attractive to men generally, but if you can get guys to tell you, it can be very enlightening. Of course, that means you have to find guys to ask who like you enough to be willing to make the effort to answer, who are able to articulate what they think well enough to give useful answers, and then you have to convince them they can go ahead and be brutal and you won't get mad.

That last is the toughie. The burden really falls on the person seeking the advice to find ways to show that they'll take the blunt feedback positively and without resentment. Men generally don't give women that kind of feedback, and women don't generally give men that kind of feedback, because no one wants to deal with the drama and resentment that tends to result.

What about my posts?

I would suggest that is an illusion. Or, at least, not known to the women. In the teen years, I remember nothing but rampant insecurity and the rumors that most of the girls who had a lot of dates were "putting out." Yeah, a lot of guys are looking, but you don't know what to do with it or about it, and the guys you like don't seem to look, and it all feels wierd and off, and half the time everything is a complete mess. If I had to pick an age to go back to, it would probably be early 30's, and definitely NOT teen years.

Well, I would suspect that there was some truth to that -- men tend to date women who "put out." Those that put out, either consistently or eventually, will get boyfriends. Those who are "saving themselves" or who object due to personal or religious reasons will find themselves lonely more often than not.

This makes sense, right? At that age, guys have plenty of platonic or "talking" friends -- what they want is something more. Love, affection, and sex, sex, sex. I would submit that women who aren't ready for sex at that age, or any age, aren't ready for a relationship. We attach a lot of romantic notions and high ideals to "making love," but at the end of the day, we're mammals looking for intercourse in the same way that dogs, cats, mice, sheep, etc. are looking for it. We just have more verbiage and legalese around the acts themselves.

Animals that are of mating age should be expected to be in a mating mood. Those who aren't, aren't ready.

Popularity? and Aspies? Whoa, you couldn't be further from the truth, in my case. I was definitely not popular in high school. In fact, there was an ironic popularity thing going on, where everyone agreed that I was weird! I also attracted stalkers, and suffered lots of teasing and sexual harassment. Also, I noticed that billsmithglendale has mentioned twice that it is easier for women to find a man. Finding a man doesn't necessarily mean success. It's what sort of men that we find, that is the trouble! Or, what sort of men find us. In the teen years and early adulthood, there is room for lots of errors and even dangerous situations.

Definitely not the right woman for you.

I mean it in a relative sense. Like it or not, what you both are describing is men being attracted to you. I know, not the right men, but men nonetheless. Contrast this with your male equivalent at that age, who, for all he knows, is completely ignored and invisible. It's far worse to be invisible than to be visible to the wrong people (within reason, of course). For a guy at that age who is not popular, good-looking, or even acknowledged, it is devastating. I still deal with the emotional fallout from that, of not feeling like a member of the human race or like a real person, and I would venture a lot of guys here have the same luggage. For me, it pushes me to promiscuity and an easily bruised ego (and a bad temper that can hold a grudge for life) -- for others, it leads to depression and worse.

Worse is subjective; without the experience of knowing what the other situation feels like, it isn't possible to draw a fair comparison, only offer opinions. Being the target of unwanted attention can be worse than none at all; it is all situational and unique depending on the individual involved.


M.

Makes sense from a male point of few, but not a female one. Those women in high school who are putting out? Most of them are not ready for a relationship, and get very hurt by the way they are treated by the boys they date. Boys who ask out girls because they will put out are not looking for a relationship. They quickly move on to the next. Guys don't face the same risks in intimate situations that women do, and all your logic above totally ignores that. Perhaps hormones still operate on a medieval scale, but society does not, and the concious brain of the guy does not. Very young women should NOT be "putting out" because the risks are far too high and they don't understand the emotional price, the societal one, and the ones on their future. So, sure, in the teen years boys are mammals ... but eventually they grow into men and change their values. And who pays the price when they do? So women are supposed to just accept the hormonal drive and all the destruction in leaves in its wake and pity the guys because their bodies are acting on instinct? Not going to happen. You know, a guy who doesn't get any dates in high school is at an advantage here: he leaves no destruction in his wake, and has nothing to apologize for to a future mate. Those years may be hard on him emotionally, but he actually misses out on the worst part of being a guy.

There is a HUGE difference between holding off on sex, and not wanting sex. Being able to hold off on what you are driven towards is a sign of strength, an asset. To just put out in high school, when the odds of a relationship leading to marriage are about 1 in 10,000, is simply a stupid thing for a woman to do, and statistics on single mothers prove it.

Um, you touched a nerve, can you tell? The idea that someone isn't ready for a relationship because they don't want to engage in sex "today" is ridiculous. You've got the two way way too tied together.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 24 Nov 2009, 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yes, I can see I touched a nerve, so I hope that I can continue to toe the line without going over it. I also do realize that some of my statements, meant to provoke thought, are also coming perilously close to being inflammatory. I do appreciate that you have kept the rancor down in this part of the discussion, and I do appreciate your very well-thought out responses. I don't know that we will ultimately agree, but I think we can communicate effectively and provide both (or multiple) viewpoints on this issue.

The male point of view is what I have any history with, so I will continue to frame things from that POV. It doesn't mean I'm right or that you are wrong, but that this is the way that many men, especially those who are high testosterone or frustrated, see the world.

Men face some of the same risks in intimate situations -- STD's, rape (it does happen to men too), and shared legal/financial responsibility for children that might result. We can also feel guilt or get complications that we did not count on.

You seem to think sexual relations between teenagers (or anyone?) is a negative thing, but really, there are plenty of young women who are perfectly happy doing so. Not every woman is coerced or unready for sex. Are some unready or coerced? Sure. Is that bad? Yes. Is it the majority? I tend to think not. It wasn't with my GF's -- my first pushed sex on me (on our first date!! !), and later ones were just as into sex as I was. Everyone's different, and some people have more of a sex drive than others. People who like sex tend to find one another.

To fault women for putting out is to take a sour grapes approach to life. Just because you weren't ready at that age doesn't mean those other girls weren't as well. You mention that holding out is better than giving in, with the rationale that it is stupid to put out when the odds of marriage at that age from that particular encounter at that period of time are very low. So what? Is sex just about marriage? Do animals in the wild get married? No? Do they enjoy sex nonetheless? Probably. Do men and women enjoy sex without marriage? In many cases, yes. So while your particular value system is geared that way, biology is geared another way, and not everyone shares your values.

Here's the test: do animals have romantic relationships without sex? To me, a relationship without sex isn't real, or at least not romantic. I've had lots of friends in the past, even close female friends, but if we never consumated the act or even came close to it, there's really no difference to me between that and just a normal friendship. Some people seem to think differently -- I would question the true nature of their adult romantic relationships, and how happy and fulfilled both parties really were.

Do you know the penny jar joke? If a newly married couple puts a penny in a jar each time they engage in relations in the first year of marriage, and then pull out a penny each time after that, they will never empty the jar.

It is a very important part of a serious relationship, but not the only part. As two people get comfortable in a relationship, they rely on it less. That is perfectly normal.

OK, I think the penny jar would be emptied within a few years by most couples, but, heck, its a joke.

My concern about abstaining is mostly for very young women who have not finished growing up. I'm sorry, they aren't ready, they only think they are. I have seen the fall out over the years, the regrets some women face, and I can say with certainty that most of the time getting active early is a mistake. There are exceptions, but the generalization is, these girls get hurt, and they carry that damage for many years into new relationships that fail because of it. They believe in a false bill of goods, and its really difficult when they figure it out. And then there are those for whom the course of life will be changed forever. No college. No self-esteem building career. Children should not have children, and sex is for those willing to accept they might bear children. As a single women in my twenties I understood that risk, and had fully thought it out. The average teen hasn't got a clue. And, definitely, the burden falls far heavier on the female. The image, the associations - its all different for very young women. I hold nothing against them, not at this point in my life, but there are good reasons that society has crafted images to discourage it. Those girls get hurt. Let I said, I've seen too much of the fall out over the years. One will meet many, many women who will reach an age where they wish they had waited longer. I have never met a woman who wishes she had started earlier. The path of the least regrets is to wait until you are an adult mentally, emotionally, and financially.

A true romantic relationship involves a meeting of minds. That isn't likely to happen with someone driven mostly by hormones. What the average girl and what the average boy want from a relationship in the teen years is not the same thing, and they don't bring enough self-understanding to really have a connection of minds (I do know people who fell in love as teens and it was life time real - I love those stories, but they aren't the norm). Lust is a very powerful feeling, but it isn't love, as much as people like to mistake it for such. Love is richer, more secure, more earth bound, and less selfish. If a relationship leaves you feeling needy, it isn't love. Love leaves one feeling like, wow, things are finally OK. That connection transcends the physical. Its emotional.

I've seen this happen to some men, and I fear the day it may possibly happen to me.

It is a strange mix of feeling flattered yet annoyed, when a girl tells me "Ohh, you are so amazing for being a virgin, you know how many girls would want a man like you, you are strong for not giving in, you should give it to your wife, etc blah blah", yet you are sitting in your room alone thinking ".......when is that gonna be!?!??". You become repressed, desperate, reclusive; almost as though your confidence went into the ring to fight Mike Tyson and obviously didn't make it. I think that while these problems stem from self, trying to find answers and advice, and venting on a forum is sometimes the only way to keep from bottling up these emotions till they explode. I post on the love-shy forum, and somebody recently posted saying that their friend, who had never been with a woman ever, killed himself at 38 due to his plight. That's what I'm afraid of.