NT female seeks input on AS male's fears

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Hahaha. Thanks =] though I can assure you it will drive you mad after too many times of it occuring.

Most of the "dealing with an angry spouse" websites say that if all else fails, you have to do that. I also read that it's good to say how long you'll be away for (which could be as little as a few minutes, or until the person comes and says they're calm), and to avoid feeding the anger with barbed comments........but my experience is that it rather depends on the severity and duration of the anger......it's infectious, and if you get too high a dose, sooner or later you're going to join in. I guess the trick is to leave the room before it gets to that level, though with my alexithymia, I probably underestimated the exposure. I'm a great believer in staying engaged when somebody gets angry. I would have said that the line is crossed when they take their anger out on you, but I can't say my angry partner really did that. That's maybe another reason why I hung on in there so long, but exposure to somebody yelling 99% piffle, interrupting every word you offer as if you weren't there, pissed me off a treat.


That sounds a lot better than anything I've known myself in relationships.


That's good going if you can both get away with such robust inquiry as that. I always feel in danger of coming over too aggressively or making people feel guilty and therefore maybe look guilty by suggestion. I suppose a lot of people could take it that way, I don't know.

Waitykatie
So how are you two doing? I pop in here every now and again and wasn't sure if I missed any updates.

Thank you for asking, but it's going to be a while! I haven't heard from him since we met for lunch 6 weeks ago. I estimate we'll be in touch again sometime this summer. Possibly autumn. It is really, seriously, literally all-or-nothing with him.

My understanding is much improved now - that's what most of the discussion has been about. The "intense world" theory, myriad deep fears, mistrust, and guilt, recovering from her abuse (while still having to deal with her), etc. He's said yes to me zillions of times, while his behavior always says "not yet." But he creeps a little closer each time. The unpredictability is the hardest part for me. I never know what to expect or prepare for. Given that he has basically binary settings - 1 and 10 - will he merely creep a little closer next time? Or will the volcano erupt?

Hello all! I am jumping into the thread at the behest of waitykatie. I am also a NT woman dating an AS fellow, and I sent waitykatie a private message thanking her for starting this thread, as this is the type of conversation I was looking for when I registered for WP a couple of days ago. I'd like to thank everyone who has participated in this thread; as I told Katie, it has been really informative and eye-opening for me, a person that really knows only the basics about AS and who is struggling to communicate effectively with my partner.

As a form of introduction, let me give you a bit of background (and I am sorry for the length; I didn't realize I had so much to get off my chest!):

Several months ago, I started dating a guy who is brilliant, witty, honest and generally wonderful. I care about him a lot. We have been on again, off again, and I am 100% sure it is due to ineffective communication skills on my part, not knowing how to not only communicate with someone with AS, but not being able to "handle" his communication style, which is extremely blunt honesty.

We dated for a few months before he divulged that he had AS, but that meant little to me, because he seemed quite "normal". Until I introduced him to my friends, and he was overly friendly and chatty, and kind of annoying, to be honest. I realize now that this is his coping mechanism in uncomfortable social situations. Soon, the attentiveness he gave to our relationship fell by the wayside and I was soon complaining to my friends that he was such a jerk sometimes. He was rigid, he was overly logical, he was particular about everything, and he never failed to criticize the littlest things I did for him. All I could think was, "I forgive him for so many faux pas and missteps, and he has to criticize the way I cook him a steak?!"

The first time we broke up, it was due to something he said about me (somewhat private) that just hurt me to the core. I have only dated NT guys in the past and was not accustomed to someone being so straightforward, especially not about personal/sexual issues. I broke down crying in front of him and it really shook him; he was visibly upset (crying) but could not understand why his comment hurt me so badly. He shut down and went home almost immediately. Two days later, we met for coffee to discuss the issues we were having. My normally verbose and articulate boyfriend couldn't look me in the eye or articulate his emotions at all. He told me his head "felt jumbled" and he was confused. I took the lead in the conversation, we ascertained that the unhappiness I was feeling was due to poor communication, and we worked out that I needed to be a little tougher in the relationship and he needed to be more thoughtful, in word and deed.

I was shocked at the 180 our relationship did. It was wonderful. He was certainly not a wine and roses type boyfriend, but he went out of his way to ask about my feelings, complimented me more, and was attentive once again. I started to stand up to his criticisms of me, which is what he asked me to do, and I stopped being insulted by his bluntness. Things were going along fantastically, until...

I had a horrible week a few weeks ago. Stress at work, dealing with friends' emotional crises, getting pulled over by cops after a crummy day, and I needed him to visit and hang out with me. We had had vague plans to get together, but when I called him, he had made plans with his brother (his relationship with his brother is another issue, perhaps related to AS; I believe his brother takes advantage of him and he has a difficult time saying no). I was upset, but I didn't get emotional. I sent him a text that said it would mean a lot if he came to visit. I think it scared him that I was trying to lean on him for emotional support, I think he felt that he was being a bad boyfriend by attending to things he felt were more pressing at the time. He broke up with me once again, citing that he didn't have the resources to devote to a relationship.

We have talked on the phone and texted several times. I sent him a lengthy email, thinking that would be the most effective means of communicating my feelings about the relationship and breakup, and given his reaction to it, it was the right thing to do. I do believe he wants to be in a relationship with me, cares for me deeply, but I think he realizes that he doesn't have the same capabilities to emotionally support me in a manner I am used to, the manner that NT guys have in the past. (But let's be honest, even NT guys aren't that great at it!) I want him to know that I am willing to do whatever it takes to make him comfortable in the relationship, because he is a great guy, and some of the attributes I admire in him are likely more pronounced because of AS, like his honesty. I trust him completely, and after having had been cheated on and lied to in the past, by ex-boyfriends, I don't think he realizes what a wonderful personality trait his brutal honesty is to me.

I am trying to learn more about AS, more about how the brain with AS is different from the way my mind works, and ways that we can effectively communicate. I am hoping to see him next week (though, I know nothing is set in stone with him; if something more important comes up, he doesn't hurry through work or prioritize in order to follow through to see me, so he is likely to cancel) and I'd like to discuss some of the things I've realized, reading through this thread and looking elsewhere on the web. As someone who has spent significant time abroad, I am finding the different "cultures" analogy to be extremely helpful when thinking about our interactions.

I don't know how much I will be able to contribute, as I am only starting my journey learning about AS and learning to be a partner to someone with AS, but I look forward to the continued discussion. Thanks for all of the thought provoking posts thus far!

This is exactly my view of AS. I've seen him do so many incredible things, and think he has so many amazing qualities, to really think of it as a disorder or a disability. Yes, there have been moments where I felt like my ferocious, intimidating, awe-inspiring, immortal demi-god was playing checkers while everyone else was playing chess, or clinging to my skirts like a 3-year-old. Struggling to reconcile such extreme contradictions and disparities got me to asking questions. Well, I have my explanation now, and understand how many NT perceptions and expectations are flatly unreasonable or inapplicable. He has strengths and weaknesses like anyone else, just in different areas. Right now I'm trying to map out the peaks and valleys, and my own too, so I can articulate myself more clearly, and also be more prepared for those "unexpected" moments. Twice, I've prevented him from getting beat up or killed. He has no idea, since that's another subject he's allowed no time to discuss.

On the topic of special perceptive abilities, he told me that a psychologist once observed that he's the most perceptive person he's ever met (perceptive about people). At the time, I almost laughed out loud. Now I think that's entirely accurate. Many times, he's noticed things about me that even I'm not aware of. He sees the trees. I see the forest. The ability to fill in for each others' weak spots is another reason I think we'd make such a good partners. I actually kind of like it when he's condescending or overprotective. It's sweet. He's just looking out for me - as I've done for him, in a different way. The process of learning each others' capabilities and coming to fully trust each others' judgment will take time, though.


Agreed on all points.


Allow me to qualify that statement: it is equally applicable to healthy NTs. As I've grown up and matured, those closest to me have gradually succumbed to personality disorders. The root of it in every case is denial of knowledge, rejection of reality. Repeatedly, until the walls are so thick and so high that nothing can break through. For them, the major earthquake that leaves cracks in the foundation is pointing out the truth. Their foundation is a fantasy; it's how they avoid pain and cope. A few hate me and wish me dead because I hammered on their walls with truth. I was trying to save them, but they didn't want to be saved. I have never been wired that way, and I think there is nothing more dangerous or damaging. I don't ever want to go crazy, so I want the truth straight up, even if it hurts. (With a few minor exceptions to spare my feelings. E.g., no need to point out that I'm a bit broad across the beam - I'm perfectly aware of that, and working on it, thank you!)

Edited to add: even healthy NTs "don't want to know" sometimes, but very often it's an issue of timing or context. NTs experience overload too, and the emotional impact of some information in some circumstances is just too much. NTs can be just as sensitive as Aspies, as to how and when certain information is delivered. My Aspie has unwittingly overloaded me at times, not because I'm in denial or rejecting reality, but because the timing was terrible, or because the information was delivered "raw" or "cold," in the absence of any reassurances of his feelings for me. With women, the latter is usually the issue. NTs often need to be "softened up" a bit, made to feel secure, before they can be fully receptive to brutal truths. I can't explain why, but it's just much easier if truth comes garnished with some pleasant emotional padding.

Because of this unswerving commitment to truth and honesty, perhaps in part due to the neurology, I've actually wondered if Aspies are even capable of developing personality disorders. Any thoughts on that?

Thank you very much for recommending the Father Brown mysteries - I'm curious and I will certainly look into it!

It's often said of those of us on the spectrum that we "can't see the forest for the trees". But a much more useful way of understanding how our minds work is to realise that we can see the trees, or even the pattern of the bark on a particular tree - and we can see the forest as an incredibly complex web of interaction between many different types and species of trees, undergrowth, and animals, and the terrain, weather, etc. In other words, we see the forest as the most dedicated ecologist might see it. What we can't see is the forest as a generalised, vague clump of generic trees. Either we see specific details, or complex patterns made up of many specific details. We have a much harder time seeing generalisations and oversimplifications. In part, this is because NTs have a tendency - which I don't think is deliberate although I can't say for certain, not being in their heads - to automatically grow blinders that allow them to ignore inconvenient reality.

I'll give you a specific example of what I mean. I was a professional genealogist for a while, belonged to the Association of Professional Genealogists, and spent time on their mailing list. After 9/11, when misguided efforts to prevent terrorists from acquiring false identities were leading to pressure to close many records (people were, in some cases, refused access to Civil War records... Somehow, I think anyone who would issue ID based on any Civil War soldier's information would accept anything. ), after a good deal of thought, I very reluctantly suggested, as a way of preserving access for legitimate purposes, that we seek formal licensing and regulations that would permit us to access those records under appropriate circumstances. The consensus was that this was either unnecessary or a terrible idea. (And, as bad as the situation is, it didn't get as bad as I feared it might - in fact, I was suggesting a discussion of the possibility, not that we should move forward immediately.) Only about two years later, someone else asked how many of us were making enough money to live on. (You don't go into genealogy for the money, let's put it that way...) The discussion this sparked led to someone else calling for a push to make genealogy a self-regulating profession like medicine, so we could earn the money and respect we "deserved". Everyone loved that idea - and almost immediately, those who supported it were attacking those who doubted its wisdom because it was "in our clients' interest". And they were advocating moving forward as rapidly as possible. From a lot of online discussion, I knew these people well enough to be pretty sure at least most of them were sincere, and couldn't see how the prospect of making more money was warping their judgment.

But it gets much worse. In the midst of this, although I knew of genealogy's previous unsavoury links to eugenics, it slipped out that some of those very people who were involved in eugenics possessed significant genealogical honours. (I assumed they'd lost them long ago, when the true horror of what they were promoting became obvious.) So, of course, since we were talking about ethics, I suggested both amending our Code of Ethics to forbid genealogists from wading around in that particular sewer ever again, and to take away the honours given in the past from those who could be shown to have had a hand in the atrocities that took place here and in Germany, and who did not publicly renounce their part in such horrors. (In case you weren't aware of this, Nazi "race science" was encouraged by many prominent Americans who conveniently "forgot" this later. The Carnegie Foundation, among others, funded some of their "research". War Against the Weak, by Edwin Black, gives a pretty good overview of this history.) The very same people who were so concerned with "ethics" as long as that was a good excuse for demanding more cash from clients attacked me and denounced me as a "McCarthyite". They didn't deny the facts, they simply saw no problem with claiming to be "ethical" while continuing to ignore that past. And they couldn't even see the irony in this. Of course, I didn't yet know I was an Aspie, and I hardly handled it perfectly. At first, I was reasonable, but one of my longest running special interests has been in World War Two and the Holocaust, and long before I was old enough to make the intellectual connection, my instinctive sympathies were with the victims. So when that button was trampled upon, I did get more than a little upset. But that was driven by the fact they just could not even grasp the idea they were focused on their own self-interest to the exclusion of everything else. And they didn't think it was "important". They wanted to ignore the most dangerous tree in the forest, just because they'd made up their minds it was a nice, safe, profitable forest.



I'm sure we're capable of it. Any neurology can take a wrong turn. I suspect it is not even that we are less likely to develop them than NTs, just that ours, like everything else about us, are different. They may share some features, but even if we developed broadly the same disorder, it would be much different in the details. Of course, I am hesitant to endorse too strongly the idea of "personality disorders". People vary widely. Where is the line between a "normal", if messed up, person, and one with a "disorder"? And we are all messed up, to some degree. There are extreme cases, and I'm not going to argue that someone willing to commit murder, for example, doesn't have something very wrong in their thinking. But to use your ex as an example, since you've described a bit about him, was he just a weak, selfish jerk or did he cross the line into personality disorder? I don't think it's easy to say, and one reason I fear using the term too broadly is the risk that we'll assume, since we don't have a "disorder", that we're immune to those problems. And assuming you're immune to something is the best way to let it get out of control. There are a lot of people out there like your ex who use the fact that they're "normal" to justify the idea they don't need to change.

But that said, there was a kid with Aspergers in Massachusetts who committed murder; he stabbed a kid in his high school. Now, I do think the "experts" failed him, since there were a tremendous amount of warning signs. One of his special interests was in forensic science, which might not have been so bad, except that he once told the class how he could commit the perfect crime... But whatever got him to that point, he certainly did have something wrong in his mind to do what he did. Although I reject categorically the stereotype that since we're different we are all potential killers, it also can't be said that we are all ideal human beings. In the end, we are human beings, even if different, with all that implies, for good and bad.

Thanks for yours too.

Here are the thoughts that your post provoked from me:

Blunt criticism - I routinely think in a kind of split-personality way in which one part of me has ideas and the other sees if he can knock holes in them, as a reality-checker. I think that when I feel close to somebody, my first impulse is to extend the service to them. I've found that it doesn't always go down well, and these days I try to check my words for emotional impact as well as for their usefulness as information. But my awareness of emotional impact has been difficult to work with. I can forget about the greyscale and switch off the criticism completely, which I think is even worse.

Feeling overloaded when leaned on for nurturance, then fazed at own failure - I don't think I was ever asked so directly as that myself. Occasionally there's been a callout for specific things, and they've worked OK, so I'd recommend asking for something specific that's in his known repertoire. It can take time for the emotional meaning of news to percolate through the Aspie brain - even news such as the death of a friend. And then there's the changeover from whatever I was doing before to this new thing, so sudden.

Social behaviour with your friends - I've always found it a challenge to balance my attention between partners and the other company. Anything beyond one-to-one has that many dimensions of complexity........he was obviously trying hard to get on with your friends, which is great, but it sounds like he was trying too hard, running before he can walk. That's one way it can go, and I've been there at times. The other way I've experienced is to become shy and just hang around the partner, rather than risk switching the attention away from them for too long and forgetting about them.

"Preferring" his brother to being with you in your hour of need - the sudden shift of social remit required is hard enough as it is, but if it involves the perceived "letting down" of another significant person, that's a lot to process. One experience of mine, on a less intense level, was when I failed to immediately infer that a female friend of mine rather needed my support, and fobbed her off with what at the time looked like a perfect reason - a prior appointment. It took me many hours to realise that I could actually cancel that appointment and offer them another time and day without doing any harm at all. Yet that had looked like a brick wall to my black-and-white mind. I did correct my mistake in time, and felt like I'd just learned to split the atom, and it was only a year or two ago. Nobody was exerting any control over me.....that would be a can of worms.

Not committing to appointments - there seems to be a lot of this with Aspies. This idea of never intending to do anything. But socially, it's pretty much a given that people agree dates and times for meeting. And how else do we visit a doctor, attend school, find and keep a job, get married? Though they're all known difficult areas for Aspies of course.

This whole "intention defecit" thing has made me think a lot, because as a gut reaction I feel that I'm perfectly able to plan, and seem to have made and kept appointments in my stride all my life. If the stakes seem high I can feel like Faust at 11.59pm as the allotted time approaches, but I never anticipate that, and cheerfully make appointments. But I seem to have a mental block about scheduling my own activities. I will find myself working on this or that, and everything will more or less get done - I often find old task lists I've written and then failed to consult, and all the most important tasks have been done. If I say, "tomorrow I will put up a shelf," I can't trust that I will. I can make a shopping list and follow that rigidly, but it can be an anxious thing....so with time I've learned to relax and see that it's not a matter of life and death if I don't get all those things in exactly the right quantities at the lowest prices.

Point taken! I should have specified that, here in the L&D forum, I meant this remark strictly in the context of social interactions and relationships. I've never for a second doubted my Aspie's intellectual capabilities. We are in the same profession, and he is incredibly successful. I could never compete on his turf. However, in romantic and social relationships, he's stepped on his own crank many times. Badly. Really badly. So badly I began to wonder if he had some kind of deathwish.

Obviously, I've had a total revolution in thought since then, and this one limited area is where a partner is helpful as an "executive assistant." He knows he needs that, which is why he's attracted to women with strong personalities. Unfortunately, he seems to have difficulty distinguishing loud strength (bossy, manipulative, and controlling, borne of low self-confidence), from quiet strength (patient, flexible, and forgiving, borne of high self-confidence). That distinction is critical to assess how likely it is that a woman will use all that strength against him. And there are many more of the former than the latter. Maybe recent events have helped clarify that for him.

Occasionally he consults me about work situations, involving shades of honesty, motivations, and psychology. (Most recently, he said that my reaction was the same as all the other colleagues he'd asked. It was good to get that confirmation, since it means I'm reasonably competent. But it also means I'm another one of those screwball NTs. )


Ha ha! Thank you for that. My ex is just a weak, selfish jerk - nothing pathological, or at least not much more than anyone else. I use the term "personality disorder" very sparingly, having dealt with an extreme, textbook example of it in a close family member. After that experience, I find it easy to judge: if you're not sure, it's not a personality disorder. Once you've seen the real deal, believe me, you'll know. I devoted the same level of study to it as I have to AS. The behavior is organized, systematic, and predictable - in a way that "normal" NTs are not.

Reflecting on my Aspie's experiences with women (which all ended in a fireball, except with me), I think this is a major reason why so many were scared off and never looked back. There are aspects of AS behavior that come across in that same organized, systematic, predictable way, and women are surrounded by other women who profess to know all about personality disorders. Many think of themselves as amateur psychologists, so once they spot a few red flags - zip, they're gone. I've heard that AS is frequently mis-diagnosed (by "professionals") as a personality disorder, which saddens me, but I'm not surprised. In contrast, one reason I've come as far as I have with my Aspie, is precisely because I had lengthy exposure to an actual, real-live, no sh*t personality disorder. There are some superficial similarities - like a car and an elephant are similar. Each weighs about a ton and has four points of contact. That's about it. Otherwise, these two men could not be more different.


Yes indeed.

Sorry; I wasn't suggesting you'd said anything awful. You did use this in a very particular sense. I was simply using it as a jumping off point to illustrate our differences.



Of, of course, you could take a leaf from our book and simply point out the difference to him, when an opportunity arises. There would obviously be bad times and ways to go about this - but I doubt he's going to be insulted simply by the bluntness alone.



Yes, there are cases that are obvious. But my point was similar to what you said about using the term sparingly. I think we can develop them, but I don't think that's common, despite the vast number of people eager to apply the label to anyone and everyone it might possibly stick to. So that's an instinctive caveat on my part; they exist, yes, but I don't want to seem to say that they are common.

Now, something completely unrelated. I just had a discussion with my wife that seems to illustrate in another way the difference between the way I think and the way NTs think. Earlier today, she spent some time helping an acquaintance of hers get their (indoor) cat back in the house after she (the cat ) escaped. This cat escapes frequently, so I mentioned that it's relatively easy to keep a cat from getting out if you're just slightly careful. ("Airlock principle" when possible, make sure the cat isn't right by the door when you go out, be ready when you go in... you get the idea.) So my wife said that would be "too much trouble" - to which I pointed out that they spend ten times the time and effort getting the cat back in once she's escaped than they ever would keeping her in. "Yes, but they just wouldn't think of it." And when I didn't get why any somewhat intelligent person wouldn't figure this out, or why once she offered tips they didn't see the point and follow them, she told me it was my AS that kept me from understanding. I'm not even sure what it is I don't understand; to me, it's a no-brainer. The cat's safer, you go to less trouble, everybody's happier. (Well, the cat may be a wash there, since she does want to get out, but since she lives in a high traffic area, she doesn't understand what she's getting herself in for.)

Now, if they didn't care about the cat and didn't even bother trying to get her back in, that would make a sick kind of sense. Not that I'd agree with it, but I could at least comprehend the reasoning. If you don't care what happens to an animal, you may be unwilling to take any trouble at all. Nasty, but rational. But these people do care - they get in a panic and run out and try to catch her and get her back in. (Which, also, is far from the best strategy in such a case, but that's another topic.) They lose time, they get all frantic*, they get upset. But they can't grasp that if they just took a few simple precautions, this would only happen on very rare occasions. And my wife tells me I don't 'get it'. (If you do, you're welcome to try to explain, but I won't hold out much hope you'll get very far.)

* I do at least understand the panic / frantic reaction. It may not be the best way to get the cat back, but I've had a few moments when one of my cats wriggled out of a harness or what have you. (Various cats have escaped perhaps two dozen times over forty years or so.) And if I thought something awful might happen, I'd get pretty upset myself. When my Girlie kitten got out of her harness, and I was afraid she'd go in the road, I kept it together until I found her and got her safely back - but then I had to lean up against a tree, I literally couldn't stand because my legs were so weak from the reaction once I knew she was safe. And holding it together was a near thing; the only way I was able to do it was reminding myself I had to get her back before anything happened to her. So I can understand the panic.

Which, by the way brings me to something else that may or may not have anything to do with AS. It could also be just my own personal quirk, since I don't recall seeing anything about this. I seem to have a predilection for visualising potential outcomes. It isn't a constant thing, how strong it is varies with my mental and emotional state, but, to use a simple example, if I'm in a car surrounded by traffic, I am never far from an awareness that just the slightest swerve on the part of any of those cars would lead to a nasty accident. I can often block that awareness, but if I'm tired or stressed or sick, I lack the energy. Likewise, while Girlie was running loose, I 'saw' all the potential things that could go wrong. (This is not physical sight, but a mental awareness. Also, it isn't conscious thought.) These examples are negative, but it is not always negative. It's more the case that my mind habitually considers potential, even if unlikely, future outcomes of the current situation. When I was younger, if I met a woman who didn't run the moment she met me, I was equally aware something might happen - even though I knew it probably wouldn't. And that example has shown me something I never realised before about this. Any potential outcome with a strong emotional quotient to it, no matter how unlikely it is, will automatically be more vivid and harder to block out than a potential outcome I don't really care about. Negative or positive emotions don't matter, just the strength.

Last edited by theWanderer on 12 May 2012, 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sorry about the temporary double post. I'm leaving this up in case anyone noticed it, lest they wonder if they were losing their mind... I thought I was editing the first post, but something went wrong in that process.

Hi feryk - I can relate to much of what you're going through - except AS was barely on the radar when we first got together. He was a total mystery to me until fairly recently. Having a framework within which to understand everything will help a lot.

There's one aspect in your story that I'm still having difficulty understanding:

So you're the one who was hurt, but he's the one who needed consoling. I've been there. It sucks.

Every time I've talked with my Aspie recently, "fear of hurting me" is pretty close to the top of the list of excuses he uses to put me off. I find this exasperating. For one thing, being put off hurts more than anything else. For another thing, he has hurt me, badly, a few times over the years (some of which he knows about, some not). I've recovered each time, and always utilize it as a learning experience. I wouldn't say I've "toughened up" or developed thick skin, but more like developed a map of the minefield ("all righty then: don't step on the big red X.") I'm not sure how to explain it, so I don't think he's aware of how my understanding of him has expanded and shifted with each iteration. Not to say that he can't hurt me anymore, but I'm no longer running willy-nilly across terra incognita. But, to the limited extent I've gotten that across, that doesn't seem to matter to him. He doesn't seem to believe it.

I understand that he's just not in the right frame of mind right now, and I accept that. Nonetheless, can anyone explain more about why Aspies are so sensitive about hurting people they care about? Even when the person says they know what they're getting into and gives their consent? The logic seems quite backwards to me. Or, what else might be going on there?

As it happens, I did. It feels very awkward and arrogant to make such bold statements, when I am obviously referring to myself. His reaction was to hang his head and say, "I know, I know, bad judgment." I certainly don't want to beat him up with it, any more than I want to get beat up with my own bad judgments, so I let it go. He's been clear all along that he'd rather have been/be married to me than anyone else, and I've learned to accept that as enough. It's not exactly the sweeping, flowery declaration of eternal love girls hope for - but in his own way, it kind of is.


Um, yeah. I'm with you. That makes zero sense to me either. My mother has 9 kitties, and lives on a busy road, so the "airlock principle" is in effect at all times (that's a great term, by the way). It's hardly any trouble at all! Plus, if you're consistent, they'll learn not to try, at least not so much. Your approach takes less effort, and more to the point, is safer for the cat - the end!

Maybe your wife understands that these people are just a bit dysfunctional and can't really be reasoned with, which is the only connection to AS I could imagine. She may not know why they're so illogical, or be too tired to explain. The kind of people who "just wouldn't think of" taking a simple measure to keep their cat inside, I'd say are not quite all there, for any of myriad reasons. Maybe they think setting limits on the cat would be mean. Maybe they like the excuse to request your wife's attention. Who knows? There are so many NTs like that, the rest of us just learn to accept it and not ask too many questions. Without that filtering function, we'd spend every waking moment trying to figure them all out. Your wife may reason that helping them get the cat inside from time to time takes much less time and effort than convincing them to change their ways.


Interesting. Do you think this could be one reason why my Aspie has gone into "blackout mode" with me? Despite how much he wants to, perhaps getting together with me is as terrifying as getting divorced? Something like that?

Imagine knowing that you're in a minefield - because you've seen people blown up around you. Now, imagine someone asks you to guide them through it, even though you don't know where the mines are. No matter how much they insist they're ready for that risk, you're going to hesitate. Even worse, imagine you don't even know what mines are, or understand why people are blown up when the step on certain patches of ground. You have no idea what's happening - but you know something horrible is, because you've seen it.

That's more or less what happens to us. We hurt people, and we don't understand how or what we did wrong, so we learn to freeze up to try to avoid doing it again. It isn't a rational decision, it's a gut fear. The more he cares about you, and the more he knows he's hurt you, the stronger this is going to be. When you don't know what to do to avoid what you fear, it's a lot harder to take any step at all.

As I said, I haven't seen others mention this enough to be sure it's linked to AS. But if it is, yes, that would make it terrifying - because whenever you get together, there's the possibility of it coming apart. And he's just been through that, so he's going to be hyper aware of that potential. (Assuming this is a trait he shares.) I'm not sure enough this is an AS trait to say, yes, this is happening in his case, but it wouldn't surprise me. If it is, the more his ex - who sounds like a real Grade A b!tch - tramples on his emotional state, the harder a time he's going to have coping with it. Both because she's reminding him of the horrible potential every relationship has, at least in theory, but also because she's keeping his emotions raw, and when my emotions are raw, that's when I have trouble with this. On a good day, it won't bother me at all. On a bad day, everything unsettles me. And if I had to deal with a woman like that, most days would be bad days...

This all makes sense to me. BUT. I have particular difficulty relating, because I was an Army officer, and he knows that. My job, my training, was to do things exactly like that. Literally. Making the best judgments possible, on incomplete information, without hesitating. The way I was raised required it, so it comes naturally. My frame of reference is very different from his in this regard. No one will literally get a leg blown off here. He might make me cry, and leave me upset for a week or so. Big deal. I'll get over it. I accept that bumps and bruises and scrapes, whether physical or emotional, are pretty much a given. Besides, the worst is already behind us. I don't know how to convey such an entirely different outlook to him.

The other thing is, I'm not asking him to guide me. I'm asking him to let me be the guide. Of course, I've never said it that way. Maybe I should?