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Actually, I suffered QUITE A BIT of rejection. I asked at least a couple of women: "Why can't you love me?" or "Why aren't you attracted to me?"

I stewed over this girl for two years, wanting to follow her everywhere. She had followed me home from work. We had sex. Then she distanced herself from me. I didn't really understand, then, that I was an "experiment" to her. I felt rejected. I felt unworthy. The whole nine yards. She was making me "involuntarily celibate" because of her rejection. And I failed with other women, too.

I felt like those guys who wanted to "take the Red Pill" or who were "involuntarily celibate." I heard the term when I was a teenager in the 1970s, and I identified with it.

Still, I knew it would have been stupid to use terms like "involuntarily celibate" with women.

I'd say she threw out the baby with the bathwater. I get that she was trying to scare off Incel (capital I) men, along with other movements. But a lonely incel (small I) may have seen her post, and interpreted it to mean that he's not welcome.

Most people can live with occasional rejection, but if you indiscriminately ask every woman you see for a date, there will be an occasional success and massive rejection. Which kind of describes what happens when autistic guys are fooled into believing that the best way to find a partner is by use of big-number games where you ask everybody out. It's easy to see how this will create misogyny.

That's why we have to tell guys that playing the "numbers game" is a ridiculous endeavor.

Usually, people who advocate guys asking, say, 100 random women out are "Pick-up Artist" types.

I see where you're coming from, but you can never guarantee that you won't get rejected, though I would agree that analysing the situation and trying to figure out if you have a chance with a particular person or not before asking them out is better than asking women out at random and just hoping for a favourable result. I don't tend to ask people out who I have no reason to suspect might say yes, and I'd say that's the smart way to go about it, but it also means I practically never ask anyone out. In any event, you can't guarantee that your interpretation of the situation was correct, and that you'll get the rest you want every time just because you analysed the situation. Many people tend to be biased to their wishful thinking when analysing the behaviour of someone they're interested in. "She looked at me, therefore she must be in love with me"

Lonely Guys™ should not be feeling unwelcome, unless they've been spamming multiple sub-fora and derailing unrelated threads with their tales of romantic frustration.

Incel Trolls™, on the other hand, deserve to be made to feel unwelcome.

Completely incorrect. But then you "dated" in a completely different time compared to today's guys.

The first thing an ND guy needs to learn is to read interest from women. Before he has mastered this task, he shouldn't do any kind of move on any woman. Simple as that.

No, we're more likely to be the "There's more fish in the sea" types. "The one that got away" just gave you an opportunity to change your bait and use a better hook.

Or, to use a sports metaphor, one strike-out does not send you to the showers. You'll always get another turn at bat.

I would say "showing interest in what a woman has to say" is sort of a positive, smart way of "making a move."

It's not "making a move" in the sleazy sense. It's being smart enough to realize that women like to be listened to, like to have the man show interest in her beyond her mere sexual presence.

I hope you're able to turn around your self esteem issues. I can speak from experience and empathy that doing so can be a lifelong battle. You seem like a nice person, so I hope for the best for you.

Please know that it's highly unlikely that anyone just meets someone they're romantically interested in "organically". Even though it happens, I think it happens so rarely that legend, film and prose make it seem like it's a more common occurrence.

You've said yourself that you would have to actively seek out ways to meet women in order to meet women. You're wise and correct in that regard. You also seem very intelligent so I'm sure if you really want to, you can think creatively as to how and were to meet women and increase your chances of establishing a meaningful connection.

I think one of the things that scares most people is that it seems there are men "incels" that don't understand that they have to "put themselves out there" to meet someone and they assume they can sit at home and somehow a relationship will or should just materialize for them and if that doesn't happen then it's the fault of women. That's of course, delusion defined. There seems to be a delusional current that runs deep among men who embrace negative "incel" ideology. That's my take on the issue.

You're kidding, right? That's like telling a kid to stay away from bicycles until he learns to ride one.

There is no way that a guy is going to learn to "read" women unless he spends time with women. You cannot learn how to "read" anybody by living in isolation.

Sure, you can never be 100% certain, and the other extreme where you never think anybody is interested is just as bad. The best approach is to analyze things and build some kind of probability "score" for if a particular woman is interested, and then act based on that. You will suffer occasional failures (possible rejections), but it is the balance of rejection and success that counts.

I think you are the one that is kidding. You can be friends with women (without asking them out), you can study men and women in interaction (in real life or in movies) and you can study women at a distance. There are many ways to go about this that do not involve asking every stranger woman you see for a date.

It would be ridiculous to just ask any random stranger for a date.

I really doubt that Fnord would advocate for that approach.

Who said anything about asking every stranger for a date? Not I. You are projecting again.

How is a man going to find out what causes a woman to reject him without risking rejection himself? By watching her reject other men? No, because what inspires rejection of one man may not be a factor in rejecting another.

Finally, observing one woman over a period of time to find out what causes her to reject men might get you arrested for stalking.

By making sure he is not rejected by learning how to detect interest.

After all, he will not get the answer by recklessly asking any woman for a date, as women typically will not tell men why they don't want to date them.

So, your question is a bit irrelevant since he cannot find out why he is rejected by women by asking them out.



If you don't learn to read the nonverbal signals you will be forever doomed at rejection. You cannot figure out if you will be rejected by looking for social patterns in a woman's rejection history, because as you claimed yourself, you are a different person from the one she rejected. But if you study her nonverbal communication with the rejected guys and the ones she dated, you will see a pattern that is useful.

However, if you are extremely handsome and desired by many women you can just skip all of this, but then, you probably wouldn't be at L & D in the first place.



Who said anything about only studying one woman? Not I. You are projecting.

Last edited by rdos on 02 Jan 2019, 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.