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Autism - "different" or "inferior" WRT relationships?

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Pepe
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20 Feb 2023, 11:21 pm

uncommondenominator wrote:
1986 wrote:
...so if I try again...


Yeah, apparently they don't believe in that here.

Haven't you been following along? Autistic social skills are useless, and nothing can be done about it - that's why it's so important to improve other aspects of one's life! Like looks! Or looks! Or maybe even looks!

You should trust him. He's done pretty well in life.

For example, he's... uh... he's done... hmm... :scratch:

It's a mystery!


It is considered a "general rule" to indicate when someone uses sarcasm.
I use: <sarcasm>



Pepe
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20 Feb 2023, 11:39 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
"a person lower than another in rank, status, or ability" is a correct definition though.

In cambridge dictionary they also say

"worse than average, or not as good as others of the same type".

That's accurate too.


People need to try and understand the context involved to derive the correct definition/meaning intended.
I doubt anyone would apply the term "worthless" to ppl, in this particular discussion.
I think we have the proverbial "Storm in a teacup" here.



Pepe
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20 Feb 2023, 11:49 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I get what's going on, the word 'inferior' simply has some other negative synonmys, negative connotations, so some are emotically reacted badly to it, fine. Let's use the more medically accepted terms: Deficient, underdeveloped or worse than average. Happy now?


I wouldn't have used the word "inferior".
But I also wouldn't start attacking ppl for its usage.
I would ask for klarification.

Studies have indicated that most ppl work from an emotional, rather than a rational/logical platform.
I suggest not being "most ppl".

The "traditional" autistic person has historically been seen as reason based.
We used to be called "Little Professors" or "Little Vulcans".
Perhaps we should revisit this trait?



Nades
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21 Feb 2023, 2:37 am

Pepe wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I get what's going on, the word 'inferior' simply has some other negative synonmys, negative connotations, so some are emotically reacted badly to it, fine. Let's use the more medically accepted terms: Deficient, underdeveloped or worse than average. Happy now?


I wouldn't have used the word "inferior".
But I also wouldn't start attacking ppl for its usage.
I would ask for klarification.

Studies have indicated that most ppl work from an emotional, rather than a rational/logical platform.
I suggest not being "most ppl".

The "traditional" autistic person has historically been seen as reason based.
We used to be called "Little Professors" or "Little Vulcans".
Perhaps we should revisit this trait?


I don't like using the word inferior too, but originally I was quoting from another user who said inferior wasn't accurate but in reality, still is accurate despite its negative connotations.



Nades
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21 Feb 2023, 2:39 am

1986 wrote:
Nades wrote:
1986 wrote:
It's not black and white. Autistic people can use the knowledge available on their social struggles to find workarounds and reach a reasonable degree of success. In a way those who are aware of the reason for their struggles are better equipped to overcome them than those unaware (~undiagnosed).


I'm what way do you mean success? Like overall, socioeconomic? Romantic?

In the context of this forum I was thinking romantically. If you're unaware of your own autism you might blame yourself for dating failures, leading to a spiral of negativity. It's better to think "ok, I'm no good at these things but it's not a flaw in my personality, so if I try again and fail it's not necessarily my fault."

Awareness can also help you navigate long-term relationships. If you and your partner seem to disagree a lot, you can work on finding a middle ground without the need to accuse the other of being difficult just for the sake of it.


Yip. I always think it's best to be objective when looking at flaws and strengths.



IsabellaLinton
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21 Feb 2023, 2:48 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
Nades wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
Nades wrote:
How do you know what I'm doing? I've already done pretty well in my life.


Such as? Like what? How so?

What expectations should I have from someone who spends so much time validating what they CAN'T do?


Hmmm just trolling.

Don't respond again in this thread. You're just a distraction away from the topic.


All smoke, no fire.

"I've done LOTS of stuff!"

Like what?

"I'm not gonna tell you!"

That's what makes me relatively sure you haven't.

It's pretty funny - you'll argue with me for pages that it's better to do other things besides work on social skills - but then when I ask you what you've actually done, you don't wanna talk anymore :roll:



I remember reading about lots of sexual adventures in groups. Sometimes people jump out of the bushes for him when he's walking down the street. That seems pretty successful to me, assuming they aren't overweight because he doesn't like that.


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Nades
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21 Feb 2023, 3:04 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
Nades wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
Nades wrote:
How do you know what I'm doing? I've already done pretty well in my life.


Such as? Like what? How so?

What expectations should I have from someone who spends so much time validating what they CAN'T do?


Hmmm just trolling.

Don't respond again in this thread. You're just a distraction away from the topic.


All smoke, no fire.

"I've done LOTS of stuff!"

Like what?

"I'm not gonna tell you!"

That's what makes me relatively sure you haven't.

It's pretty funny - you'll argue with me for pages that it's better to do other things besides work on social skills - but then when I ask you what you've actually done, you don't wanna talk anymore :roll:



I remember reading about lots of sexual adventures in groups. Sometimes people jump out of the bushes for him when he's walking down the street. That seems pretty successful to me, assuming they aren't overweight because he doesn't like that.


To be honest, you and uncommon shouldn't post again here. Having constructive debates on stuff like this seems to be your weak point.

Everything seems to go a lot better when neither of you are posting. Isn't it strange how I kept out of your thread other than to congratulate babybird for her 50k post despite it being somewhat related to this thread but you haven't kept your nose out of mine?

I shelved out staunch criticism of your definition of autism but at least I kept you, yourself out of it because who you are had nothing to do with your point, even I'm not that bad.

Uncommon doesn't seem to follow those rules and neither have you.



Mona Pereth
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21 Feb 2023, 8:23 am

On the question of whether autistic people should work on developing social skills:

There are social skills and there are social skills. I divide "social skills" into two main categories:

1) What I call "autistic-friendly social skills." These are the skills that we would need in order to get along with each other even if there were no NT's in the world.

2) Conformity to NT social norms, for the sake of appearing to be normal, including stuff like imitating culturally mainstream eye contact rhythms.

Insofar as autistic people work on improving our social skills, I believe strongly that we should focus primarily on the skills in category #1. On my website, I've amassed some collections of links to tutorials on some of these skills.

On the other hand, focusing on category #2 -- as all too many of us do -- can be downright detrimental to our mental health and to our ability to function overall. Many autistic adults feel that "masking" has been bad for their mental health.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 21 Feb 2023, 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Nades
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21 Feb 2023, 8:26 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
On the question of whether autistic people should work on developing social skills:

There are social skills and there are social skills. I divide "social skills" into two main categories:

1) What I call "autistic-friendly social skills." These are the skills that we would need in order to get along with each other even if there were no NT's in the world.

2) Conformity to NT social norms, for the sake of appearing to be normal, including stuff like imitating culturally mainstream eye contact rhythms.

Insofar as autistic people work on improving our social skills, I believe strongly that we should focus primarily in the skills in category #1. On my website, I've amassed some collections of links to tutorials on some of these skills.

On the other hand, focusing on category #2 -- as all too many of us do -- can be downright detrimental to our mental health and to our ability to function overall. Many autistic adults feel that "masking" has been bad for their mental health.


Would autistic friendly social skills include trying to limit a lot of behaviour that NT's find off-putting? Like for example, obsessive talking about a subject?



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21 Feb 2023, 8:43 am

Nades wrote:
Would autistic friendly social skills include trying to limit a lot of behaviour that NT's find off-putting? Like for example, obsessive talking about a subject?

We ourselves (not just NT's) are likely to find it offputting when another autistic person talks obsessively about a topic that we ourselves are not interested in.

Those of us who like to talk about our special interests need to find people who share our interests, and refrain from discussing them more than very briefly with anyone else.

With autistic people who do share our interests, we can have mutually satisfying conversations, although those conversations might not be quite as "reciprocal" as an NT would prefer.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 21 Feb 2023, 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

WisteriaRose
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21 Feb 2023, 8:54 am

I like it when people tell me about their interests. It makes me feel special - like they are welcoming me into their magical world. :heart:



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21 Feb 2023, 9:01 am

WisteriaRose wrote:
I like it when people tell me about their interests. It makes me feel special - like they are welcoming me into their magical world. :heart:

Then they are talking to you with your consent. You share their interest at least in the moment, even if you don't share it longterm.

Mutual consent is the key here.


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Nades
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21 Feb 2023, 9:13 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Nades wrote:
Would autistic friendly social skills include trying to limit a lot of behaviour that NT's find off-putting? Like for example, obsessive talking about a subject?

We ourselves (not just NT's) are likely to find it offputting when another autistic person talks obsessively about a topic that we ourselves are not interested in.

Those of us who like to talk about our special interests need to find people who share our interests, and refrain from discussing them more than very briefly with anyone else.

With autistic people who do share our interests, we can have mutually satisfying conversations, although those conversations might not be quite as "reciprocal" as an NT would prefer.


I noticed that with a few autistics though to be fair, most don't seem to ramble much. I find rambling about interests one of the more off-putting traits along with dressing "loud" like they want to draw attention to themelves.



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21 Feb 2023, 9:15 am

Nades wrote:
Having constructive debates on stuff like this seems to be your weak point.


It's the autism :wink: It permanently limits my social skills, and debate is a social skill. Stop forcing your unreasonable expectations on me. I've been told, BY YOU, that autism limits social skills. PERIOD. Autistic social skills are inferior, PERIOD. Why do you keep expecting them?

Nades wrote:
Everything seems to go a lot better when neither of you are posting.


And I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!

Nades wrote:
Uncommon doesn't seem to follow those rules and neither have you.


Autism! Understanding rules is a social skill. I don't do well with rules. That's probably why I occasionally succeed once in a blue moon. I don't listen when people tell me I can't accomplish something.

You expect some pretty savvy social skills for someone who insists such a thing is impossible.



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21 Feb 2023, 9:35 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Nades wrote:
Would autistic friendly social skills include trying to limit a lot of behaviour that NT's find off-putting? Like for example, obsessive talking about a subject?

We ourselves (not just NT's) are likely to find it offputting when another autistic person talks obsessively about a topic that we ourselves are not interested in.

Those of us who like to talk about our special interests need to find people who share our interests, and refrain from discussing them more than very briefly with anyone else.

With autistic people who do share our interests, we can have mutually satisfying conversations, although those conversations might not be quite as "reciprocal" as an NT would prefer.


Yes, I agree with the above comment. I had to learn the hard way that not every NT scientist likes to talk quantum physics on particle formation or nanomaterial development with me. Many only care about their little slice of the scientific pie, be it biology, chemistry, regular physics, engineering or mathematics. Nothing else is interesting to them. It is sad to me that it is this way, but I cannot change it. I keep most of my information to myself while I am around others now. I guess that would make me the “inferior” one by definition.

Some of my deepest conversations were with people who are on the spectrum or are likely to be on the spectrum. I usually cannot relate much with an average NT anymore. We just do not have much in common to talk about. So few people pay attention to what is going on, it becomes a one sided conversation fast.



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21 Feb 2023, 9:58 am

Talking about special interests is indeed a common thing autistics seem to struggle with.
I have learned to limit it even with family members.

I find that *any topic* that is in not in the realm of current news/events/work/kids/mortgage/economy is usually perceived too strong by NTs for a daily chit chat.

Also I notice the topics NTs usually talk is often related to theme of the place; like for example whenever I see two people in gym talking (often of opposing sexes), 90% of the times they talk about something related to fitness, like diet and exercise types.
A group of people in an outing in some café, they often talk about food, restos; … and also most often they like to talk *about themselves and their lives*; rather than about big topics.
Even in one small atheist gathering I have been in, a topic on religion did occur, but they talked about their own experience with faith rather than why religion doesn’t make sense by itself.