NT woman at her wit's end with her male Aspie friend

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I won't patronize you and say, "Oh, *I* get it," because of course I don't so thanks for explaining how this can be interpreted.

This also reminds me of some trends I've seen to "pop culturalize" the stereotypes of AS on TV, etc. On the other hand, it was while watching a favorite television program when AF brought up the subject of AS by suggesting a particular character was an "Aspie." I was familiar with the term but he rarely uses slang, so it was too much for me to ignore.

The media representation threads are fascinating to me, although I don't post because I don't have anything to contribute.



Definitely

I don't know if this is too late or not. I was wondering, RecentlyBookmarked, what exactly you want from AF? It sounds to me like you want to be friends with him, and that you want confirmation from him as to what he wants from the relationship.
Is it really likely that he will ever give this confirmation? And what will happen in the meantime? What will you have to deal with? You have an anxiety disorder, and you've put yourself in a situation that is causing great anxiety.
You've said that he has inspired you creatively and opened your world up. There are other people who could give you this without all of the confusion and pain.

Ahh, so your vote is for the jerk/ dick category?


Too late for...?

I've not contacted him since Sun. which was to tell him how bothered I was by his treatment. It was basically everything I've said here but more succinct. Right now I'm weighing the pros and cons, and the cons just keep piling up (like the effect on my own anxiety problems).



That's the nice thing about having a muse: I don't have to have him in my everyday life to get inspiration.

I don't think he's a jerk. He just has some serious problems that probably can't be solved even by the most well-meaning friend.
By a therapist, sure. And if these problems aren't solved, they will capsize any relationship.



I wasn't sure if you'd made a definitive decision one way or the other. Oftentimes when I'm making a decision, a specific situation serves as a "point of no return". And then I make up my mind and can't be persuaded to change it.

Oh, that's me, the well-meaning friend



Even though I've known his treatment wasn't personal, and perhaps that's why I've taken his crap, what you wrote above takes a bit of weight off of me. Thanks!

My instinct tells me that while (or because?) I do care for him very much I just have to get some distance because he isn't going to cease 30 or so years of behavior because of wonderful, charming me. People must have left him before, it's not new to him. When he replied, "Sorry to hear that I'm a lot of work," I cringed because it was, in effect, a pre-emptive strike. Also, I felt like he was saying I should just leave now. And I kind of believe it.




I had a family friend who was diagnosed with AS in '98 (I barely knew her) and I remember her and her family feeling a sense of relief but it certainly didn't erase the pain of years of ridicule and a very rocky family life.



I don't think I understand the concept of "self-awareness" as it is applied to people with AS. As I said, an acquaintance of mine said AF seemed to lack it. So, in AS terms, what is it and why do a few people suggest he probably lacks it?

I didn't take any offense at the comment. I figured being predictable might be a good thing for an Aspie but a bad thing if your doing the "love game" thing where you want one person to want you. It seems if they have you figured out then your not a challenge I guess. I don't mind being predictable, it's the way I am and I can't help it. At least I'm consistent and as I told him, it's in a good way.



I wanted to address this part. This is a key part of the problem. You are not going to get an answer from him because he can't give you one. If your going to have a relationship with him, you'll have to accept this part. You will have to take the lead and do the work. Not only now but in the future. That's something to consider if you want a relationship with him. At times it's very easy and at times it's like a very hard puzzle to figure out. They don't come with instruction books.

You will have to take the lead and tell him how you feel and what you want, then see what he says and how he responds. He sounds very confused about what you want. Communication is a very difficult task at times but that's part of the Asperger problem. When I run though all the problems I have with my AF it reads just like the wiki page about Asperger's.

You have to have tons of patience and understanding. If you do and you love this person, then it's well worth the struggle and pain. So decide what you want first then ask for it. Maybe you will get it that way.

ButterFlair, as always, you're helpful and offer a lot of insight, thank you.

OK, then I misunderstood, and I'm glad : )



I did this yesterday: I wrote that I thought we should be friends and I explained that I realized I was probably unclear with him in the past. (He's sensitive to potentially patronizing phrasing, especially if it suggests any "How to write to an Aspie" training, and I can't blame him for that, so I may have teetered toward self-effacing humor.) Also, I said he meant a lot to me, I liked his company, that I'd like to get past the relationship question and get back onto topics in which we shared an interest.

Of course, on Sunday I just told him I was upset at him and while I wasn't unkind, rude or belligerent (not that I normally am, although I suppose you'll have to take my word on that), I was very clear that I was offended and why. I imagine it will take him a bit to get past that missive before he gets to yesterday's and processes it all.



I'm not sure yet about how much of the work I can handle. Only time will tell. I do know that our friendship became much easier once I read about AS. Suddenly, everything made sense and fell into place -- well, mostly ; )

Another question: what exactly are his traits, specifically, that make *some* suggest he has issues other than AS? I know AS itself can present in any number of ways and no two people are alike, but even taking that fact into account, it seems like he has some traits that make him rather enigmatic. Bear with me, I'm only learning about this.

A lack of empathy and misinterpretation of social situations has a lot to do with it, so it's very easy to run into problems where your perception of a situation doesn't mesh with what's actually happening. I often find myself in situations where I think I'm being friendly and sociable, but realize after the fact that people were bored or offended by something I said and thought to be completely innocuous. If I talk about something that bothers me or I think is stupid, it doesn't occur to me in that moment that some people think I'm being whiny, because in my mind, I'm just making an observation and stating my opinion.

In the case of your AF, I was surprised mostly in the sense that his behavior seemed unaware of very basic social manners - i.e. please, thank you, holding doors open, being appreciative of someone cooking, etc. Being relatively well-mannered has been ingrained in me for as long as I can remember, so it's weird to me that someone in their 30's would not be.

Ah, OK. I thought it was more about triggers, knowing one's anxiety level and limits, etc.



The reason it struck me as odd was because his manners are quite good, far from chivalrous, but it was unusual that he would not acknowledge it was time to come to the table. CJBinks is probably accurate about anxiety and control being issues.

I'm so in the dog house with AF right now. He hasn't acknowledged me since I sent the Sun. I'm-not-happy-with-you email. The thing is, I drafted it and kept it for over two days before sending it because I didn't want to "say" something just out of anger and hurt. I meant what I wrote. I meant to send it.

Ugh, I'm ridiculous: I don't want to lose him however I've turned myself inside out for a person who can't, or won't, answer a standard question. How much can I actually matter to him? It's interesting, I can't recall letting any other guy treat me this way, not even as a teenager, yet he got under my skin almost immediately and while I can remain composed through stressful events that would unhinge most, I just cannot manage my emotions and reactions with him. I wonder why?

If you want to (unless it's private) you can post it (or parts of it) here so you can get some feedback.


How much? Anywhere between nothing and everything. Literaly everything. Nothing is very unlikley.
Becouse we are not meant to be able to ressist feelings.

Hindsight is 20/20, right? I'm sure I said something objectionable but what is more important is that I made my frustration clear. Probably my follow up to that: saying what I wanted from the friendship, and suggesting we forget the recent skirmish and just get on with things confused both messages.

I'm afraid he thinks my let's-get-on-with-things message was interpreted as an apology or at least admission of being "wrong."




I'm wary that he either has or will convince himself this is too much work and has just turned that part of himself off.

It seems like the majority of posts here on WP Re: relationships, especially with NTs, are often about friendships and/or relationships that almost happened or even did happen to a degree but then failed and while some blame the other, some also say they know their own needs and wants weren't meshing with what the other wanted (or that the other "needed" too much). When I asked earlier about self-awareness, this was probably what I was touching on but couldn't quite get the right words. I don't think AF is aware enough of his own limits or if he understands what it is I'm asking. I suspect he simply thinks, "She's being annoying again."



I may just try to agree with the above statement as it's very hard not to take this treatment personally.

By the way, what kind of therapy or what would the therapy treat?

Boy, does some of this sound familiar. How many times have I called myself stupid for doing the same thing. I've been inside out and upside down for this guy. I've never done this for anyone else before. Since I don't know your guy I can only tell you how I handled things.

My relationship is heading toward the 4th year now, I hit the biggest wall in year 3.

First I have learned that he will not change unless he wants to change. I cannot change him. I can only accept him as is.
2nd - He does not purposely treat me badly, he tends to think of things from his point of view because he can't see my side of it (AS trait)
3rd - I know that I matter to him and he cares about me because he spends a lot of time with me over the computer. He does what he feels like doing so if he is with me, then I know he wants to be there.

In Oct of last year, several things caused a shut down and he stopped communicating with me for 3 weeks. I was devastated. During that time I realized how much I needed him in my life, he fills an empty place and everything I did made me miss him. I needed to have him back in my life. I did everything I could to make that happen. I backed away and took out the emotion in my emails, I gave him some space (about a week is all I could do), I realized the things I was doing that probably was causing him stress and I named them and apologized for them in an email. I told him that I placed no blame on him. He can't help how he is and when I really looked at things I realized that I was pushing him into uncomfortable places. I made the decision to be the friend that he needed and not to focus on my own needs.

After 3 weeks he sent me an email, he was coming back but would only communicate by email for a bit. During the next week, we wrote several times and then he finally came back to chat. Four weeks we had not chatted. I think he needed to feel safe again and that I wouldn't attack him with questions once we chatted. He had to give me some of his concerns first and he asked that any issues I have with him be addressed in email. I agreed to all of these but also asked that we keep our voice chat. Three months later, things have been going very well.

Does he still make me upset? yes and I have cried a few times but I don't say anything like I would have before, I try to understand where he is coming from. It's not the things he says but if he doesn't show up or doesn't feel like talking that make me feel bad.

It wasn't easy to do all this. I had to pretty much grovel and lose my pride and concede that he runs things but I am okay with that right now. He is here every day now. Three months ago it was 3 days a week and has grown back to daily. I never criticize him anymore, I never argue about anything, I never complain about anything he has done. What I have noticed is that he is opening up more on his own. He isn't hiding things anymore, he isn't lying, he comes on his own without me asking. It's almost like I set him free and he chose to stay. I feel better since letting go and I don't have the horrible feelings inside of dread and despair when things didn't go my way.

Sorry this is long but it's just coming out. I don't know how long any of this will last, I don't know if he'll ever allow me to visit him again and I don't know what changes are ahead but I am enjoying my time for the moment. He lives in the moment so I am too. I'm very happy that he is in my life and he is very nice and kind and I love talking to him. He is fun and playful and a joy. I'm very content right now with how things are and I still retain hope that it will get better. I will never ask him how he feels about me, I have told him my feelings and he accepts them. He knows that I am here if he wants me in that way. I feel certain if he ever developed feelings, he would tell me. Will that ever happen? I don't know but if not, then we are good friends. I know that there will be other challenges ahead and I'll face them when they happen and decide then if I can continue but for now, I'm in a good place.

I hope you can work out your differences and move forward with your AF. You just have to keep in mind how much harder everything is for him then it is for us. I've done a ton of reading and asking advice from people here and all of it has helped me move forward.

There's a good chance that I'm overreacting to the silence. Sometimes he's just quiet for a while, sometimes I am too (no, really). However, I happened to re-read my message telling him the kind of relationship I wanted. Oh dear, I was multi-tasking and just wanted to write a quick, breezy note about something serious with a not-so-serious tone, but it was phrased in a way that he absolutely could misinterpret. Many people probably would. I wrote that I was sorry if I'd engaged in confusing behavior (meaning that I had been angry and hurt, then friendly, then angry again) and I felt we should be friends (to finally get that question out of the way) and that I thought that was what he wanted, and I held nothing against him for wanting to be friends at all (I meant, in case my wanting "more" freaks you out, don't be stressed, I don't want that right now either).

It very well could be interpreted as, "Let's be friends. Sometimes my behavior was confusing. Seems like you aren't interested in being more, which I don't hold against you." Is it just me or would you read that and think I was accusing you of not wanting more? I.e., "I might have wanted it to be a romance but you didn't act on it so now it's your fault."

Again, I have probably succumbed to stress, but my message was poorly phrased and once the previous message of "I'm mad at you" is added to the mix, well, it's a recipe for a miscommunication disaster.

Or, he could be a member here on WP just having a fun time following my neurotic unraveling? Hmm, I like this scenario best

Last edited by RecentlyBookmarked on 23 Feb 2009, 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Butterflair, I do not know if you see your friend in person or if it's just purely an online relationship.

Please do not be angry with me, but I just have to ask. In your first sentence, you said that you are okay with him running the show for now, but I want to know how long can you do this? How long can you stifle your opinions and your voice if you think you run the risk of offending him? How long before it gets to the stage where it's just all about him?

When my ex left, I made promises to him that I knew were wild and crazy as I was saying them, but I said them out of desperation to keep him and our marriage intact. They didn't work. He left anyway. In those first few months, on the rare occasions I would see him, I lost myself. I felt like I was on the shore standing one-legged on this narrow pole and the water was rising bit by bit. One wrong move and I would drown. I aimed to please him, did not give him my opinions, agreed with him on everything. I didn't want to jeopardize this fragile existence. And my god was it tiring.

I've seen the term "self-centered" used here when describing aspies. I can't help but wonder if by our actions, we're just feeding into that. Because in the real world, as we both know, relationships have their ups and downs and there are disagreements that hopefully give way to mature resolutions. It's not all about just the one person.

I still love my ex, but I wish my heart would hurry up to the stage where I will love myself more.

I don't see him in person, we've only met in real life once. It's an online relationship. Though I know that online relationships aren't "real" to some people, it is to me.

I take no offense at what you said, you make valid points. Somehow in letting him establish how things would work to come back, I ended up empowering myself more. I've managed to contain my feelings and emotions much better. I don't freak out as much when he isn't here, I don't worry as much about things I can't control. He really doesn't ask anything of me so there really isn't any control that he has over me personally. He just controlled the fact of how he would be here. He wants me to do what I want, he doesn't want me to put him at the center of my life, he wants me to do other things that don't include him.

I know that I can't really offend him, he never gets angry at me. In hind sight I really think I know what happened. He shut down. I wanted to visit him and he didn't feel comfortable with it and had a hard time telling me. I think he was thinking of how to word it and didn't show up the night after my email and I got upset and said he shouldn't treat me like I"m nothing. The next night he didn't show up and I sent another email saying forget it, I wont visit and asked him to just come back. At this point I think he knew I was upset and would want him to explain in chat what happened so he avoided it and me. I don't think he ever stopped liking me, I think he didn't want to upset me and he did and then he didn't know how to come back. If any of that makes sense. He doesn't want to fight with me, he wants me to just accept him when he is here for the time he can give. That is what I agreed to do. I hope that makes sense. I had to not be upset anymore and make it safe for him to come back. I have never asked or discussed what happened. I told him we didn't have to go backwards. He is such a kind and gentle person, he gave me as much as he could but I think I was smothering him with requests for time.

Somehow in the end, I'm getting what I want, he is here as much as I wanted and we get to talk. Al of his own choosing, I'm not forcing or asking him for it. Therefore, this makes me happy.

I'm going to agree with you here. I think the "I'm mad at you" plus your message probably has him in shut down mode. At this point you should probably think about what YOU want. Clarify that in your head. I think you can still recover from this with some time and patience. I think you have to take the time to word your next email carefully. He is probably upset that you are angry and doesn't know how to get past that. Maybe even confused about what happened.

I would suggest that your next contact be more direct and non-emotional. Something like..

"I have had time to think about things and I realize that my last two emails were not phrased very well and I have probably been confusing you. I want to clarify things so you know where I stand and hopefully we can move forward with our friendship. I do value our friendship. I am sorry for any confusion or hurt I have caused you.

I am not angry at you. I enjoy spending time with you and I want that to continue. I would like to get our friendship on stable ground. Please contact me and let's try to move forward."

Something like that. Just a suggestion.

Well, I got a reply, but this of course only continues this roller coaster that I apparently don't hate as much as I feel that I do.

For those here with AS: what is in this for my friend? I realize no two Aspies are alike, but if anybody wishes to attempt to offer some insight...

A part of me is too interested in the game of this even though I really hate games.

In all honesty, what is "shut down" and what is just childish pouting? What's the difference? Can somebody explain what "shut down" is? I have times when I have to shut the world of and do what I call hibernating. While it's restorative and definitely crucial for my health, I know it isn't quite the same as shutting down.

.

Yes, thanks for the perspective. That is what I've been doing. I've been vacillating between that and being concerned over potential misunderstandings.