what women want

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What I see snake as trying to say is that women generally find it easier to find dates. Men tend to initiate, so the woman tends to only have to wait for the right offer. This of course, is assuming the woman in question is physically attractive - because as much as we'd like to think in terms of ideals, men are attracted more to physical attributes. Of course, this is a rather reductionist explanation but since we are speaking in generalities, we can say that for most intents and purposes this is true. He doesn't go into detail on the difficulties women face in dating, but because he neglects to mention this in detail, it doesn't mean he is unaware of or disregards this perspective.

It seems everyone needs to start tiptoeing in this thread. It's a very sensitive subject. I'll give some advice to some other posters here: it doesn't help to make crude comments, post in a condescending manner, or to dismiss women's opinions because of their gender. In fact that last one is a big no-no, I can't imagine that anyone here would do this IRL. Likewise, putting 'I'M NOT f*** ATTACKING FEMALES YOU FEMMINIST B****!' in a subject heading isn't terribly sensitive.

I'm not innocent either, since I did use some rather harsh words towards ELLCIM, but I'd like to see this thread not continue to go in the direction it's heading. So can people realise this is a sensitive topic and make their posts more palatable and easier to interpret? By 'palatable' I don't mean to censor your views, just make them less offensive unless it's necessary to achieve the intended effect.

WTF is this?! What am I suppose to do now? Ignore this and smile politely?! My opinions do not stem from feminism.. they stem from being oppressed as an individual.. and when I stick up for myself it's not some political stunt. I am a human being ..and you ARE attacking females.. you've attacked any woman here who considers themselves feminists because you've used the term to denograte me. Now please do not continue speaking to me like s**t.. I do not deserve it and will not tolerate it. If you do not want to fight with me.. do not antagonise me. Please.. I'm aware that I have a 'way with words' [which I'm not exactly proud of- I have had speaking difficulties and so developed a very 'blunt' language which is hard to tone down] and I will not hold back. You have said some very offensive things on this thread, suck it up and take responsibility for them and palm off the blame. I also ask that you to NOT abuse me again and start playing nice.

Were you or were you not complaining about how women are aren't easy?

Am I? Have I started with name calling?

Oh.. so I'm an arrogent piece of crap because I have standards rather than just going for 'any dick'? I'm overly fussy because I'm not a slut? I'm not going to be a charity for the charamatically challenged. If you can't get any it's not my problem.. why should it be? If you can't find a Ms. Right now.. rent one.. don't blame all the other women.

I'm treated as a freak by everyone.. whats your point? You think aspie women have it easy? If so.. why?
The last time a guy asked me out he spilt beer on me.. the one before that hinted at an affair [actually he said "You'd crumble if I put the hard word on you." and said something about me wearing leather]. These men are disrespectful pigs so are not good enough. I don't see why I should feel guilty for rejecting these sort of people.

You assume women never ask men out. You are wrong.. they do. I've asked guys out and have been rejected.. and quite honestly it's rare that I meet someone I'm interested in so there's greater risk as I actually like the person and it might take months for me to ask them. It's not a nice feeling but neither are regrets.

Thats not evidence.. that is hearsay and I'm not the only woman that disagrees with you on this point so that means I'm not an exception to the rule.

You seriously need to re-read your posts.
Now. I offer a truce. Speak respectfully and so will I.

ok whatever, I never attacked females, your just blindly defending a label (female) that wasn't under attack on here from the beginning... It's called constructive criticism... In general most women do have an easier time being accepted than men on the spectrum (not saying some exceptions don't exist, but in general I am correct)... I don't even put it over on women, I think it's sad and degrating that this position has been placed on women (DO YOU HEAR THAT, I'M STABDING UP FOR WOMEN WITH THIS COMPLIMENT SO PLEASE DON'T TWIST MY WORDS). But then there are some women who take advantage of it. Now maybe your not one of those women, but what I have been saying is generally true. Screw political correctness, I'm not gonna let society brainwash me on how to think so I can ignore the obvious to fit in. Screw that.

Look, we'll make a truce, we'll agree to disagree.

It depends on where you live. I don't know the demographics of Detroit very well. However, I am hard pressed to find any women my own age that are single. And, I know a large number of single NT guys. I've exhausted the list of girls I know and I can think of 11 that are definitely single, and another 12 whom I am not sure about at the moment. Three of the 11 are swamped with multiple jobs and/or school (one has a full time job and two part-time jobs, another has a full-time job and has college courses right now, and another is just finishing up a very comprehensive and time-consuming ESL program) - thus they don't have time for relationships at the moment. Most guys I know are single, including coworkers, classmates, and my longtime friends from high school. Now, age does play a role here - a lot of the girls that are taken are going out with guys who are 22 or 23. My friends and I are generally 19-20. So our chances will be better in a couple years, regardless of NT or AS. Right now girls that are 2-3 years younger are rather immature, in some circumstances. Not to say that they'll all be mature in 2009, but the probability of maturity will increase.

As for snake - I support your truce. While I agree with a lot of what you've said, it is getting a bit far.

I mean I still keep my stance on what I said but I'd rather not talk about it anymore... I don't want everyone on here or all females on here to think I'm a jackass... I'm not a bad person, I'm just very vocal with my opinions. I won't make any apologies as I feel I wasn't flaming anyone on here, but I have offered my truce.... I'm not a woman hater and I'm not an insecure perv or whatever... But alot of females on here might be upset at me now and see whatever they wanna see in me and make me out to be someone I'm not. And I see no reason why we can't be friends.

To be honest, I think your views were less of a problem than the way you reacted, snake. But I don't think riley reacted all that well, either.

*dodges items thrown from both sides*

I reacted to the filth he was posting. Your moral commentary is not helpful.. you tried that on before when you inferred that I only disagreed with Snake to be spiteful. Instead of reacting to that assumption I went to the trouble of calmly explaining EXACTLY why I got offended and told you what context I read Snake's posts in. Even though we may not agree.. I still believe I am correct in my interpritation of his posts. You then said you missunderstood.. all was fine and dandy but you have now backflipped saying that I didn't react very well. What is the appropriate way to react when someone tells me I can fulfill my womanly desires by going for 'any dick'? Or advises women on how thay can get out of speeding tickets by giving head.. [I've only heared of that happening on TV- some might but most would just pay the fine] or to overt sexism, innuendo and abuse? The offensive name calling? He didn't even apologise.

hang on: "oh you.." *giggles* ?

If you do not want to be caught in the middle.. I suggest you don't dive in.

I reacted better than I could have.. it is the way my personality is and as I said before I'm trying to tone it down. I do see the world harshly but that is just the way I am.. I'm a realist.

Snake. I noticed you said "I'm not sexist" before.. then said " women respond with emotion not logic". That is not only sexist but incorrect.
By saying aspie women have it easier than men.. you are basically dismissing all they have gone through. They DO NOT have it easier.. you have already been told this. They are individuals that fall under the same broad set of symptoms and would also have social difficulties which would make courting hard anyway. If you were right.. they would not be at this forum.. but it seems you think we could just flash our tits or use our 'charms' to get through life's problems. Life isn't that simple.
IMO being an aspie female makes us more likely to viewed as prey than prize.

I really thought this place would be different than real life..

The above comment I assume refers to the following statements:




Here I suppose snake is trying to explain how women are often understood as 'objects of desire'. Men look at women, and women watch themselves being looked at. Men actively pursue women, and women are more often than not the passive recipients of their attention. Depending on what sort of feminist you talk to, you might receive different opinions on this.

But in general, I believe this to be true. I don't really feel this needs extensive explanation, but I'll briefly elaborate. A lot of what women have to do to make themselves attractive to men is related to their physical appearance. Women have their clothes and their makeup, and nowadays they can even increase the size of their breasts, inject their facial muscles with deadly toxins to make themselves appear younger, and have 'designer vaginoplastys' to make their vaginas more palatable. You can also see this in the way women are presented in advertising, media, art, and pornography, among other things. Relatively little attention is often put on their achievements or their stories.

You'll also find a tendency for people to depict images of women and even young girls in shy, demure poses, perhaps looking downwards or away from the camera. Whereas in pictures of boys and men, it's far more common to have males in assertive or aggressive roles. When both genders are present, whenever there is a implication of a power relationship between the male and the female, the male tends to be dominant. This goes back to the idea of men who act, and women who wait passively.

This isn't just related to sexuality but reflects attitudes in general. We reinforce these in how we speak of members of different genders. The word 'slut' and 'player' comes to mind. We also raise our children with these attitudes. Look at some of the new kid's toys that are coming out; perhaps you have heard of a line of dolls called 'Bratz'. These dolls reinforce a strong sense of sexuality rooted in females' physical appearance - and these are being heavily marketed towards young girls! But what are boys of the same age playing with? They have no equivalent reinforcers. They are encouraged later on to not just 'appear', as women do, but express their sexuality in more assertive or aggressive manners, and actively pursue women.

I don't believe that this situation is the fault of any particular gender, as radical feminists might believe. Some of ELLCIM's and snake's prior comments have given me the distinct impression that they believe that feminists universally or by the majority think that men oppress women, and I think that some of their views are defensive against such a view. But personally, I prefer to believe that the situation has come about because of other reasons, such as a 'sex sells' mentality and the adoption of this to areas outside of the sex industry, a lack of intelligent discussion about sexual matters, and a fear of censorship and media regulation. Plus there is likely a biological component.

Coming back to what we were discussing, you (riley) responded to snake's statement with this:



That is indeed true, but I don't believe that snake was suggesting that women should accept any male as you suggest. I think he was saying that a woman's first priority for attracting a mate was making herself physically attractive (again, not that it should be like this), and that after having done that, all she had to do was wait and men would come. Whereas men tend to do the pursuing. That, I think, is his main point. Of course, a woman might wait for a long time if she wasn't relatively attractive. If she was completely unattractive, then her chances of finding a mate would be low. And that is not even taking into account other factors, such as personality, social status, conformity to gender roles, etc.



He didn't advise anything, he simply stated that if a woman chose to do this, the outcome for her would be more successful than if a male tried this on. He didn't agree with this either, as he said later he believed that this was degrading for the female, echoing your repsonse.



I know, and that's why I brought it up. It isn't getting anyone anywhere, except maybe snake who seems to like digging graves... But then again, having a person make unfounded assumptions about your sex life can be frustrating too.



Snake, making generalisations is alright when discussing 'issues' because simplicity is needed (you don't want to get bogged down saying 'generally' and 'with some exceptions' the whole time), but I think doing this to deflect a person's argument is inappropriate, as it's very likely that it'll end up being taken personally. To give an example, there's a relatively high proportion of black people who commit crimes in the US. You wouldn't say say to a black kid who had just committed a crime 'You're acting just like all the other black people.'



Snake, I think you are wrong if you are suggesting that women have it easier universally in the dating department. However, I believe you to be right if you're saying that women will find it easier to date a man, regardless of his quality. The latter of these interpretations of your statements is the one I think you intended. IMO, aspie women will indeed find it easier to find a man, but like riley says, I would say that there'd be good chance that many of those men would be lacking in quality.

Enigmatic_Oddity,

I'm happy to hear your own personal views and agree with many of them.. but given the way I have been abused by Snake.. [I'm still quite angry] I'm not enthusiastic about hearing how your interpritation of what snake has said is 'right' and mine is 'wrong'- it gives a presumption of superiority that does not sit well. If snake wishes to try dig himself out and clarify what the hell he is on about.. he is free to try. I have already explained why I believe he was speaking in a certain context and that should be sufficient. Most adult males would realise that speaking about women flashing tits giving bj etc could potentially offend women who frequent this forum.. your defence of him can only serve to encourage his behaviour. He needs to find other ways of communicating his ideas without being crude.

Anandamide,
I'm really sorry this thread turned nasty.

I'm not taking sides, and at no point have I condoned his way of speaking. I feel that the way I interpreted snake's comments is reasonable, since he has explained himself and his views, albeit in a very offensive manner. And I'm sorry if it seemed I presumed superiority, because that was definitely not my intention. It's just as possible that I'm the one misinterpreting here, after all. I just thought that since I wasn't really part of the argument to begin with, I might've been able to add my bit without being too involved.

I'm trying to not be blunt here.. I am an extreamily analytical person and pay attention to everything that is said.. especially when someone contradicts themselves. It's not like I'm lieing in wait.. I just get that feeling when something 'doesn't add up' like when you're doing a mathematical equation and get a wrong answer. I pay attention to details.. this is how I am.. I even do this in RL. If someone says one thing and their body language says something else it puts everything they say into a different light. Breaking it down.. you have inferred that my interpritation is wrong and yours is right several times.. [which is a gesture in itself] for this to be true you must consider your perception as more accurate and therefore superior. It is just different. You are a guy.. your interpitation is bound to be different than mine but since you are a guy you are further removed as the insults and abuse were not directed at you or your gender. I understood what you were saying from the get go so I'm not going to change my mind on what he meant so there is no point re-translating what he has said for my benefit.. I can read it for myself. He also failed to apologise off his own bat so that IMO shows that he's fine with abusing people despite his protests about being seen as the 'bad guy'. Everyone is free to change their behaviour though so I'm hoping he will try use this as a learning experience.
There is also no way you can be sure what he meant unless you are his alter ego.

You have and I honestly have taken it into consideration. If he had not stooped to name calling I may have given him more leyway but as it is this only validated my earlier suspicions of him.

Well I agree that if I were in your position, I would have been indignant as well at snake's later comments. I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings, I understand where they're coming from.

But on the issue of interpreting snake's posts... for now we will have to agree to disagree. Perhaps I have been annoying by trying to suggest your perspective is wrong, but I did it because I don't want to see anyone fighting because of a *possible* misunderstanding, which seems to happen a lot on the boards.

My point was clear, I WAS NOT attacking females, I was just saying that it is a man's positition to persue a woman, a woman just has to wait for the right offer.
I think it's disgusting how society makes women into sex objects, it repulses me (LISTEN, ONCE AGAIN I AM STANDING UP FOR WOMEN HERE)... However, it does provide an advantage because the man has to persue "the object" (notice I put "the object" in quotations), meaning the woman holds all the cards... And many women will even take advantage of this (and I'm not saying your one of them)... Even if the men asking you out aren't your type, atleast people are trying to get with you (and I'm not saying you should go for them just to get any dick, don't twist my words)... What this does say is that your a thousand times more likely to hook up with someone than I am, if you look remotely attractive. You just hafta wait for the right offer... But atleast your getting offers. Now I'm sure there are exceptions to this for much less physically attractive females aspies out there, and maybe your one of them (though honestly I'd doubt it because you've said yourself that men who you weren't interested in have asked you out, and reguardless of rather you liked them or not, it tells me that men do ask you out... Once again I'm not saying you should tell those men yes if you don't like them).
And no, I'm not just out for sex, my point there was women can get away with things men can't because women are the "object of desire"... I didn't make it that way, society did and lotsa attractive women deliberately reinforce it (I'm not saying all women), and I don't agree with how our society does that to women... But the blowjob thing was an example of what I was saying how women can get away with things that men can't.
And if you deny this, your sub-consciously fighting to hold this unfair advantage over men, this advantage that also that degrates women, then your doing more harm to females than I am here. If anything I'm merely standing up for women who are decent (who seek attraction equality, not superiority through degredation) and condemning society and non-decent women who take advantage of their situation.... Yet your fighting tooth and nail to defend your position as the "object" sub-consciously....

Enigmatic_Oddity.
NOW you are being annoying by AGAIN suggesting my perceptive was wrong. How many times do you have to hint at it? You kept on 'trying' this and I kept on NICELY asking you to stop even though you knew I was still wound up from snakes abuse. That is not trying to prevent fighting.. that is patronising and dismissive which just so happens to be a major pet peeve of mine [as illustrated by my argument with Snake]. I said it was aggrivating me before.. now maybe you will believe me. Your attempt to play moderator/moral authority only led to pouring petrol on the fire, stick to what you're good at.

Last edited by riley on 11 Jun 2006, 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

This is why men have looser standards than women, because women can afford to have higher standards..