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rabbittss
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20 Apr 2012, 7:40 pm

Quote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
I don't feel bitter about having made a choice. I feel bitter about having to have made the choice.

What "made you" make the choice to not date fat people, for instance? What external force acted upon you?


That I find them aesthetically unappealing. I also find Picasso to be a s**t artist. But as the saying goes, there is no accounting for taste. I do not, by the way, find extremely thin people attractive either.

Quote:
rabbittss wrote:
Yes, Obesity can be caused by health problems or genetics or whatever. But it can also be caused by drinking to many sodas, eating to much unhealthy food, or sitting around passively consuming mindless television. Obesity doesn't have to be a Moral Failing, but it can be the result of a series of moral failings.

So, then, we're actually not talking about OBESITY, we're talking about people who have X, Y, Z character flaw (which can result in obesity) are we not?


Yes, effectively, They are character flaws which result in me not wanting to associate with people who exult said character flaws as a badge of honor.

Quote:
I undertook every healthy means and several unhealthy means when I was obese to lose weight, and simply couldn't.
What, then, would you have had against dating me, for instance?
rabbittss wrote:
The tendency of people in the south to "leave it in gods hands" cannot be ignored either. Why bother attempting to better yourself when you're going to be perfect in Heaven anyway? Much better to just sit around and wait for the magic sky man to fix all your problems.

I resent the implication, in the context of the current discussion, that killing myself to achieve some "ideal" or "normal" or "healthy" or whatever the buzzword of the week is for something for me which requires outright starvation is "attempting to better myself". Moreover, I'm from a relatively-privileged background-


I'm sorry that your experience in weightloss was difficult. I know that it is not easy. But I also know that it's possible to say "No" to seconds, "No" to Sugary drinks, "No" to sitting around being inactive. No one makes them eat 4 bowls of spaghetti and watch 12 hours of TV. The Public Library will loan you books for free. I know there aren't always options to get out and exercise and I know with a painful fury that the South is designed to cater to the dreaded automobile. But No one twists people's arm to make them eat at Mcdonalds 3 times a day. It's perfectly possible to shop at Walmart and buy healthy foods and not go broke. The difference is they don't taste like salt and sugar and all the artificial flavorings that the food which is made of reprocessed stuff does so people don't want to eat it.

Quote:
most people in the South are disproportionately poor, disproportionately uneducated, and sneering at them for being at the mercy of a food-dessert-ridden area governed by heavily-subsidized chains of food supply which leave them little actual choice of what foods to buy given their limited means strikes me somewhat elitist.


I'm glad I come across as Elitist. That's the point. Only in America is that considered a bad thing.



Kurgan
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20 Apr 2012, 7:42 pm

rabbittss wrote:
Quote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
I don't feel bitter about having made a choice. I feel bitter about having to have made the choice.

What "made you" make the choice to not date fat people, for instance? What external force acted upon you?


That I find them aesthetically unappealing. I also find Picasso to be a sh** artist. But as the saying goes, there is no accounting for taste. I do not, by the way, find extremely thin people attractive either.

Quote:
rabbittss wrote:
Yes, Obesity can be caused by health problems or genetics or whatever. But it can also be caused by drinking to many sodas, eating to much unhealthy food, or sitting around passively consuming mindless television. Obesity doesn't have to be a Moral Failing, but it can be the result of a series of moral failings.

So, then, we're actually not talking about OBESITY, we're talking about people who have X, Y, Z character flaw (which can result in obesity) are we not?


Yes, effectively, They are character flaws which result in me not wanting to associate with people who exult said character flaws as a badge of honor.

Quote:
I undertook every healthy means and several unhealthy means when I was obese to lose weight, and simply couldn't.
What, then, would you have had against dating me, for instance?
rabbittss wrote:
The tendency of people in the south to "leave it in gods hands" cannot be ignored either. Why bother attempting to better yourself when you're going to be perfect in Heaven anyway? Much better to just sit around and wait for the magic sky man to fix all your problems.

I resent the implication, in the context of the current discussion, that killing myself to achieve some "ideal" or "normal" or "healthy" or whatever the buzzword of the week is for something for me which requires outright starvation is "attempting to better myself". Moreover, I'm from a relatively-privileged background-


I'm sorry that your experience in weightloss was difficult. I know that it is not easy. But I also know that it's possible to say "No" to seconds, "No" to Sugary drinks, "No" to sitting around being inactive. No one makes them eat 4 bowls of spaghetti and watch 12 hours of TV. The Public Library will loan you books for free. I know there aren't always options to get out and exercise and I know with a painful fury that the South is designed to cater to the dreaded automobile. But No one twists people's arm to make them eat at Mcdonalds 3 times a day. It's perfectly possible to shop at Walmart and buy healthy foods and not go broke. The difference is they don't taste like salt and sugar and all the artificial flavorings that the food which is made of reprocessed stuff does so people don't want to eat it.

Quote:
most people in the South are disproportionately poor, disproportionately uneducated, and sneering at them for being at the mercy of a food-dessert-ridden area governed by heavily-subsidized chains of food supply which leave them little actual choice of what foods to buy given their limited means strikes me somewhat elitist.


I'm glad I come across as Elitist. That's the point. Only in America is that considered a bad thing.


There are very few records of elitism not fueled by imperialism, so it's not a good thing.



ValentineWiggin
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20 Apr 2012, 7:42 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Mention one Playboy Bunny, Bond Girl or Hooters calendar girl with 17% body fat.

Oh, hello there! Welcome back to the discussion.
Actually, the MAJORITY of playboy models have a BMI below "normal", and have for some time
Gender Difference in Population versus Media Body Sizes: A Comparison Over Four Decades

Quote:
It's the one who's closest to 23% body fat.

No, actually, the threat to female fertility per BMI point is greatly magnified toward the smaller end of the scale as opposed to the larger,
as evidenced by your very own links whereby even obese women remained fertile.
Quote:
I have already proven my point; men will instinctively target more feminine and fertile girls.

Your point was that the more "fertile" women are those resembling the current popular aesthetic- a laughable assertion.
Since being underweight SIGNIFICANTLY endangers female fertility moreso than does obesity,
you've this entire time been playing the fool- arguing that men's preferences are based on fertility, acknowledging that modern men go for one body type, and ignoring that this body type is the LEAST fertile.

Overall, a more responsive post than the rest of your drivel, but you'll still have to do better.


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of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


rabbittss
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20 Apr 2012, 7:44 pm

Kurgan wrote:

There are very few records of elitism not fueled by imperialism, so it's not a good thing.


You opinion. Not mine.



ValentineWiggin
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20 Apr 2012, 7:45 pm

rabbittss wrote:
I'm glad I come across as Elitist. That's the point. Only in America is that considered a bad thing.


Pretty much everywhere, passing moral judgement on and wrinkling your nose at people who cannot help their circumstances is considered a "bad thing".

I can agree with you that in America, many are so ignorant that INTELLECTUALISM is "considered a bad thing",
but then INTELLECTUALS are able to acknowledge that the "obesity crisis" in America is resultant of a myriad of factors involving incredible government, environmental, corporate, and cultural forces, with the individual who's subject to them exercising, in contrast, a bare minimum of power over their circumstance.


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of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 20 Apr 2012, 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rabbittss
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20 Apr 2012, 7:48 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
I'm glad I come across as Elitist. That's the point. Only in America is that considered a bad thing.


Pretty much everywhere, passing moral judgement on and wrinkling your nose at people who cannot help their circumstances is considered a "bad thing".

I can agree with you that in America, many are so ignorant that INTELLECTUALISM is "considered a bad thing",
but then INTELLECTUALS are able to acknowledge that the "obesity crisis" in America is resultant of a myriad of factors involving incredible government, corporate, and cultural forces, with the individual who's subject to them exercising, in contrast, a bare minimum of power over their circumstance.


So it's bad for me to pass moral judgement on people who are overweight or ignorant and who do nothing to correct these problems.. but it's Okay for the posters on this forum to pass moral judgement on me for doing so. Got it.



ValentineWiggin
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20 Apr 2012, 7:53 pm

rabbittss wrote:

I'm sorry that your experience in weightloss was difficult. I know that it is not easy. But I also know that it's possible to say "No" to seconds, "No" to Sugary drinks, "No" to sitting around being inactive. No one makes them eat 4 bowls of spaghetti and watch 12 hours of TV. The Public Library will loan you books for free. I know there aren't always options to get out and exercise and I know with a painful fury that the South is designed to cater to the dreaded automobile. But No one twists people's arm to make them eat at Mcdonalds 3 times a day. It's perfectly possible to shop at Walmart and buy healthy foods and not go broke. The difference is they don't taste like salt and sugar and all the artificial flavorings that the food which is made of reprocessed stuff does so people don't want to eat it.

The fact that you consider this the life of the average fat person is grossly-insulting, and yet says so much about why you're so prejudiced against them.

By the time I hit 215 lbs, I had been a raw vegan for three years, eating 500 calories a day and exercising for hours.
While many people might lack my obsessiveness, a good many of the people you'd stereotype as calorie-inhaling lazy gluttons have tried harder than you can imagine to lose weight. They've starved and exercised, they've cried at night thinking of how you and other people judge them, and they've considered ending their lives rather than living in a world where they're ridiculed and people feel entitled to call them "disgusting" in a way they wouldn't dream of applying to black people, or Jewish people, or any other group


_________________
"Such is the Frailty
of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


Kurgan
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20 Apr 2012, 7:55 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Oh, hello there! Welcome back to the discussion.
Actually, the MAJORITY of playboy models have a BMI below "normal", and have for some time
Gender Difference in Population versus Media Body Sizes: A Comparison Over Four Decades


'Normal' and 'ideal' are two different things.

Quote:
No, actually, the threat to female fertility per BMI point is greatly magnified toward the smaller end of the scale as opposed to the larger,


Have you got any proofs for this? COUNTLESS studies have shown that overweight dramatically decreases fertility, allthough it does not kill it completely. This is why many attached, obese women who lose a lot of fat often become pregnant afterwards.

Quote:
as evidenced by your very own links whereby even obese women remained fertile.


Again, LESS FERTILE does not mean INFERTILE. Obesity leads to LESS FERTILITY; thus it's less attractive.

Quote:
Your point was that the more "fertile" women are those resembling the current popular aesthetic- a laughable assertion.
Since being underweight SIGNIFICANTLY endangers female fertility moreso than does obesity,
you've this entire time been playing the fool- arguing that men's preferences are based on fertility, acknowledging that modern men go for one body type, and ignoring that this body type is the LEAST fertile.

Overall, a more responsive post than the rest of your drivel, but you'll still have to do better.


You're beating a dead horse. A Playboy bunny is more fertile than an obese woman. Playboy bunnies are fit and have a healthy level of body fat.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles ... man-nature

The fact that the beauty standards (given enough food) remain the same for thousands of years, just shows that it's fueled by our instincts. Nature may seem cruel, but it's orderly and ultimately does what's best for the evolution.

Image



scubasteve
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20 Apr 2012, 7:55 pm

rabbittss wrote:
So it's bad for me to pass moral judgement on people who are overweight


Yes.

rabbittss wrote:
or ignorant


No.

And it's disturbing how you seem to assume these go hand-in-hand.

The point I was trying to make about Adam Richman is that he's overweight, and he's an intellectual. What you think of his show is irrelevant. It wasn't even his idea.



ValentineWiggin
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20 Apr 2012, 7:59 pm

rabbittss wrote:

So it's bad for me to pass moral judgement on people who are overweight or ignorant and who do nothing to correct these problems.. but it's Okay for the posters on this forum to pass moral judgement on me for doing so. Got it.


It's bad for you to:
a. pretend being overweight IS a "problem" for everyone
b. pretend being overweight is a "problem" that CAN be "corrected" for everyone
c. pretend that widespread ignorance is anything other than the result of widespread systems which result in it, such as poverty and lack of education

Unless you'd like to argue that the poor are actually intellectually-inferior?

And yes, being a bigot is quite different from judging said bigot.


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of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


rabbittss
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20 Apr 2012, 8:01 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
rabbittss wrote:

I'm sorry that your experience in weightloss was difficult. I know that it is not easy. But I also know that it's possible to say "No" to seconds, "No" to Sugary drinks, "No" to sitting around being inactive. No one makes them eat 4 bowls of spaghetti and watch 12 hours of TV. The Public Library will loan you books for free. I know there aren't always options to get out and exercise and I know with a painful fury that the South is designed to cater to the dreaded automobile. But No one twists people's arm to make them eat at Mcdonalds 3 times a day. It's perfectly possible to shop at Walmart and buy healthy foods and not go broke. The difference is they don't taste like salt and sugar and all the artificial flavorings that the food which is made of reprocessed stuff does so people don't want to eat it.

The fact that you consider this the life of the average fat person is grossly-insulting, and yet says so much about why you're so prejudiced against them.

By the time I hit 215 lbs, I had been a raw vegan for three years, eating 500 calories a day and exercising for hours.
While many people might lack my obsessiveness, a good many of the people you'd stereotype as calorie-inhaling lazy gluttons have tried harder than you can imagine to lose weight. They've starved and exercised, they've cried at night thinking of how you and other people judge them, and they've considered ending their lives rather than living in a world where they're ridiculed and people feel entitled to call them "disgusting" in a way they wouldn't dream of applying to black people, or Jewish people, or any other group


Again, I'm sorry that you had such a hard time. I am well aware of the forces at work here. People are making money off of making other people sick, and then more people are making money by treating those now sick people, and all of it's encouraged by an extremely bizarre system of government irregulation combined with an equally bizarre system of government subsidies.


scubasteve wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
So it's bad for me to pass moral judgement on people who are overweight


Yes.

rabbittss wrote:
or ignorant


No.

And it's disturbing how you seem to assume these go hand-in-hand.


You obviously haven't been to Georgia. You also ignored my question. Why is it okay for some one to pass judgment on me, but not okay for me to pass judgement on others? Clearly if we are all to avoid passing judgement, then you should keep your trap shut when I say something you don't like.



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20 Apr 2012, 8:04 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
b. pretend being overweight is a "problem" that CAN be "corrected" for everyone


Actually in (litterally) 99% of all cases it can. This is why you never see a significantly obese chimpanzee out in the wild.

Quote:
Unless you'd like to argue that the poor are actually intellectually-inferior?


Socio-economic factors play a large part in the development of your IQ. This is why black people from Bermuda usually have much higher IQs than black people from Zimbabwe and why white people from Great Britain have a higher IQ than white people from Moldova.



ValentineWiggin
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20 Apr 2012, 8:05 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Have you got any proofs for this? COUNTLESS studies have shown that overweight dramatically decreases fertility, allthough it does not kill it completely. This is why many attached, obese women who lose a lot of fat often become pregnant afterwards.[/quote

Quote:
as evidenced by your very own links whereby even obese women remained fertile.


Again, LESS FERTILE does not mean INFERTILE. Obesity leads to LESS FERTILITY; thus it's less attractive.

Quote:
Your point was that the more "fertile" women are those resembling the current popular aesthetic- a laughable assertion.
Since being underweight SIGNIFICANTLY endangers female fertility moreso than does obesity,
you've this entire time been playing the fool- arguing that men's preferences are based on fertility, acknowledging that modern men go for one body type, and ignoring that this body type is the LEAST fertile.

Overall, a more responsive post than the rest of your drivel, but you'll still have to do better.


You're beating a dead horse. A Playboy bunny is more fertile than an obese woman. Playboy bunnies are fit and have a healthy level of body fat.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles ... man-nature

The fact that the beauty standards (given enough food) remain the same for thousands of years, just shows that it's fueled by our instincts. Nature may seem cruel, but it's orderly and ultimately does what's best for the evolution.

Image


I'm done. I've grown bored of the:
repeating irrelevancies ad nauseum
failing to address points actually made
citing links as evidence, then arguing the opposite of the information they contain
reductio ad absurdum
gross historical ignorance ("beauty standards (given enough food) remain the same for thousands of years" :lmao: )
outright denial of biological variation among organisms
making up realities for strangers based on personal misconceptions of physiology


_________________
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of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


scubasteve
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20 Apr 2012, 8:07 pm

rabbittss wrote:
You obviously haven't been to Georgia. You also ignored my question. Why is it okay for some one to pass judgment on me, but not okay for me to pass judgement on others? Clearly if we are all to avoid passing judgement, then you should keep your trap shut when I say something you don't like.


I did not ignore your question. I think you've misread my response. I will always call someone out if I feel they're being ignorant, and I have no issue if you do the same. To me, that is very different from calling someone out for their lifestyle or appearance. (ie. their weight.)

Oh, and I have family in Savannah. Some of them are overweight. They're also well-educated people with moral integrity.



Last edited by scubasteve on 20 Apr 2012, 8:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ValentineWiggin
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20 Apr 2012, 8:07 pm

Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
b. pretend being overweight is a "problem" that CAN be "corrected" for everyone


Actually in (litterally) 99% of all cases it can. This is why you never see a significantly obese chimpanzee out in the wild.


Oh, so all we have to do is airdrop millions of people into the wilderness!! !

Quote:


Socio-economic factors play a large part in the development of your IQ. This is why black people from Bermuda usually have much higher IQs than black people from Zimbabwe and why white people from Great Britain have a higher IQ than white people from Moldova.


IQ tests....























:lol:


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of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


ValentineWiggin
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20 Apr 2012, 8:09 pm

rabbittss wrote:
You obviously haven't been to Georgia. You also ignored my question. Why is it okay for some one to pass judgment on me, but not okay for me to pass judgement on others?


Probably because
you're being judged for passing judgement on others.

How is this difficult?


_________________
"Such is the Frailty
of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."