When family disapproves
04 Oct 2009, 1:28 pm
Roman wrote:
Merle wrote:
Ultimate responsibility for the success and failure lies within the individual. The family is there to help provide guidance and direction - but it is not their life to live. Nor, if they truly cared, would want you to follow their advice 100%.
Disapproval should be expressed, either backed by fact or simply as concern for the relationship. However, it should be tempered with the care/love of those giving the advice to support the individual regardless of their choices.
Otherwise it's just a means of manipulation. And relationships can generally do without external manipulation.
Unless you get a kick out of it, and then it's fun.
Disapproval should be expressed, either backed by fact or simply as concern for the relationship. However, it should be tempered with the care/love of those giving the advice to support the individual regardless of their choices.
Otherwise it's just a means of manipulation. And relationships can generally do without external manipulation.
Unless you get a kick out of it, and then it's fun.
But, based on what you just said, wouldn't you classify what my mom did to be manipulation? Here is what it is:
1) During the remainder of the time before I had to go to North Carolina my mom (NOT me!) said that I her honest advice is that I "throw Jennifer into garbage and wipe my feet off of her", "run away from her as fast as she can", that she is "a wolf with sharp teeth", etc.
2) Again, before North Carolina my mom said that Jennifer is
a) hysteric woman (that was in response to my telling her that Jennifer cries, so again my mom refused to see a clear evidence that Jennifer is a victim and instead used it against her, just like Europe refuses to see that Jews are victims and thus using things against them)
b) that if I go to North Carolina Jennifer will "drag" me into a bed with her and "make sure we have a child" in order to trap me
c) that she will ruin my career because I mentioned that she is against my studying physics (when me, my mom and Jennifer met, my mom asked Jennifer if I would have time to study, I answered yes, and then few minutes later I doulbe-checked with Jennifer if I was right saying yes since I wanted to avoid comming across as lying in Jennifer's favor, and my mom got all over that one little double-check)
d) That Jennifer is fat and no sane guy would ever be with a monster like that, so of course she wants me since I am the only one crazy to be with her
e) That, since Jennifer has polycistic ovaries, which is HORMONAL and would make her INFERTILE, I shouldn't ever be with her (NOTE: it contradicts part b where she is afraid I would get a kid with her)
3) Then she also told my dad (and my dad is in Russia while we were in USA) as to how horrible Jennifer is. He then called me from Russia and left a message that I ran onto a "b***h". When I called him back to talk about it, he told me that Jennifer is a lose woman who sleeps around with all kinds of guys. When I tried to counter him by telling him how there was a particular guy who competed with me to be with her, he said that she made that guy up, and if I remember correctly he also said that no one would seriously want her anyway to back it up.
4) AFTER North Carolina there was another BIG fiasco as to whether or not I should go to Christmass to see her family. UN-like North Carolina, both of my parents had VERY STRONG postition that I absolutely should NOT see her on Christmass, and they would insist on that position even if I do try to openly argue with it. Their reason was that my thesis defense was at the end of January so it would be "ridiculous" to see a family right before the thesis defense. There were quite a few counter-arguments I would bring up (although I would phrame it as "jennifer said X can you help me argue with her" which they would ignore and act as if it was my opinion, just like they ignored it before North Carolina) none of which they heard. They are as follows:
a) I have plenty of time BEFORE Christmass, so I have time to prepare. Their response: what if you won't? My counter-argument: if the defense was BEFORE Christmass, I would be able to prepare, right? So, why can't I pretend it is before Christmass
b) Jennifer told me several times her family will let me study! In fact she said that her dad for the most part just watches TV! They would tell me that Jennifer can't speak for others (even if I CLEARLY tell them she KNOWS them it is her own family) or that they KNOW it is rude if I just study, never mind that Jennifer should be the one concerned if it is rude or not. BOTTOM LINE: they simply don't believe that Jennifer would let me study, they think she lies to me
c) I should go on Dec 22 to California (where my mom lives) to celebrate my grandmother's birthday. PLEASE NOTE: when I decided to cancel BOTH California (where my mom lives) AND Arizona (where Jennifer's family lives), in favor of staying in Michigan to study for the exam, it didn't matter any more that I missed my grandmother's birthday.
d) If I insist on going to Arizona, why don't I go few days later so I can have my last meeting with one of the ppl in my dissertation committee. Well, I was meeting one of them twice a week and the other three times a week, so ONE last meeting didn't matter that much if I had 20 meetings until that one. YET, that meeting WAS important enough to miss my grandmother's birthday, yet Jennifer's family was not (just like the Jews are "not important" when it comes to the way Europe treats them).
5) When I refutted the above arguments, they resorted to openly saying their real concerns:
a) If I go to Arizona Jennifer will force me to marry
b) On top of forcing me to marry her, she will force me to abandone my career as a physicist, and find me a job as a janitor
c) Jennifer is like a garbage can, and other girls are like fine restaurants, and they don't get why I eat from a garbage can while there are 10 fine restaurants just around the block?
6) After Christmass when I was done with my ph.d. defense my mom wanted me back to see my grandmother for a passover. Jennifer on the other hand wanted me in Michigan. My mom was bringing up some strong reasons for me to go to passover, such as my grandomther is old and might die, so when else will I selebrate passover with her, especially since I go to India for postdoc and who knows if I will be able to come back for passover next year. Now PLEASE NOTE: previous years I didn't celebrate passover in California either, because of school. It was never an issue. Yet, once Jennifer was around it became an issue. It is similar to the way how whenever Arabs attack each other it is never an issue, but when Jews are the ones that, supposedly, attack Arabs, it becomes an issue.
7) Right before the passover, Jennifer's grandmother and aunt were in a terrible car accident. They were both having serous hemirages and were unconscious for a few days. Her aunt also bit off her tongue off. Also, it looked like one or both of them were going to die (it turned out that neither died, although her aunt ended up with permanent brain damage so that she acts like 5 year old sometimes). Anyway, I called my mom to make it a reason to see it. Her response:
a) NO, I should see my grandmother because my grandmother has hernia PRE-surgery appointment. By the way, it was April, and my grandmother STILL haven't gotten an actual surgery appointment. Yet, being with my grandmother for her PRE-surgery was more important than attending to Jennifer's family who were actually dying
b) My mom's land lord asked me how do I know Jennifer is telling the truth about the car accident. So in other words, they assume she lies. If someone lies, what do you do? You IGNORE everything they say, just like Europe IGNORED the fate of Jews under Hitler or under Arabs.
c) My mom pointed out how the fact that Jennifer won't go there without me (she is not allowed to see them while they are in intense care, unless they are in a direct family) shows what kind of horrible attitude she has towards her own family
8 ) Since Jennifer didn't want to let me to choose passover with my family over her, I perswaded her to make a compromise, so I took her there with me. She wrote a very long email to my mom detailing all of our past disagreements. In each case she would write three parts: what she (Jennifer) did wrong, what my mom did wrong, and what Jennifer expects different for the future. Even though Jennifer spent JUST AS MUCH time admitting her own mistakes as she did outlining my mom's, my mom TOTALLY IGNORED the part where she admitted her own mistakes and viewed that email as another attack on her, even though the TRUE intention of the email was to make piece. Again, this is similar to the way Europe views Jews. The reason the behavior of Jews towards Arabs is viewed in such a negative light is that they totally IGNORED what Arabs do to Jews. In the same way, the reason the email that Jennifer wrote is viewed in such a negative light is that my mom totally ignored everything that Jennifer said where she admitted her own mistakes. MY MOM THEN WENT AS FAR AS REPRINTING THAT EMAIL AND SHOWING IT TO ALL HER FRIENDS, ALL OF WHICH CONFIRMED THAT THE EMAIL WAS "AN ATTACK". ONE OF HER FRIENDS DID PSYCHOANALYSIS OF THAT EMAIL AND WROTE AN "EVALUATION" OF JENNIFER, all of which was done without her permission!
9) While at the passover, one of my mom's friends (the same one as the one who did the evaluation of the email) said, in Russian, that Jennifer is very ugly (she weighs 250 lbl). Now, everyone there knew Russian except for Jennifer. Then, my grandmother wanted to talk to me because "she haven't seen me for such a long time". When she did talk, she told me how I am such a fair guy and Jennifer is such a monster and she doesn't understand why I was with her. When I told Jennifer what my grandmother said after I talked to her Jennifer was very upset. I then held her hand while there was a concert at our house (it was few days AFTER passover, so the concert had nothing to do with it) and then my mom criticized me for holding her hands during the concert because it "disracts the audience".
10) I then went to see Jennifer's family for easter. It was only for a couple of days. Yet, my mom called Jennifer's family because I didn't call her when she expected. Since Jennifer didn't give any permission to my mom to call her family, this put her in a bad mood and ruined the whole thing.
11) Even though I have defended thesis a few months ago, the official graduation was in May. The ticket back was scheduled on saturday. Jennifer was very upset that I didn't stay with her for Sunday as well. I first accused my mom as to why did she "forget" to schedule ticket for sunday. She pointed out that I forgot it too, since she asked me if the saturday ticket was okay. I then started whining as to what to do to "fix" it now that we forgot. She had no answer, as if she OVERLOOKED something obvous: change the ticket (just like Europe "overlooked" the option of bombing railroads leading to concentration camps). I THEN SHOVED THAT OPTION INTO HER FACE, AND PRESNTED IT AS MY OWN WISH NOT HERS (just like Jews, after being tried with seeing the world ingoring that option during WW2, they shove the option of self-defence into the world's face as they deal with Palestinians) but my mom ACTIVELY argued against it (just like the world actively argues against Israel's self defense). We had a week long fight, which consisted on me pointing out why is ONE SINGLE DAY matter so much, and my mom telling me some lame things as someone has to teach me to sing and he only has 2 days so one more day would help. Well c'mon 2 days or 3 days don't make a difference! Her other excuse was that she felt sick while at my graduation so she wanted me to accompany her on a plane back, and she was going back on Saturday. Well, she is over protective so she NEVER expects me to take care of her while sick, so this was clearly a plot for her to separate me from Jennifer.
12) Before graduation she asked me if Jennifer is comming, I said I didn't bring up a subject to her, and that I was going to call her and ask. My mom stopped me from calling her and saying that she would feel more comfortable without her. I didn't call. Then the next day I felt angry that I didn't call, and when graduation neared I wanted to call her to get her come as fast as possible so she won't be late. MY MOM DENIED WHAT SHE DID YESTERDAY (just like Europe denies the fate of the Jews) and told me that she REMINDED me to call her and I CHOSE not to. Well, its like she thinks I am stupid that I would think that telling me NOT to call her amounts to reminding me to call her. Anyway, I then outbursted during graduation by running up to a chair mad and swearing at him. Then after that I wanted to "fix" it. So when me, my mom, and Jennifer were supposed to meet, I ran off away from BOTH of them to look for a chair man. Then while I was gone, my mom attacked Jennifer -- for instance Jennifer said that my mom told her that I was scared of her which is why I ran. Again, my mom IGNORES a scenario that Jennifer might be a victim (i.e. I decided to disrespect Jennifer by running), and the only way to do it is to say that Jennifer is a threat (i.e. I was scared of her which is why I ran). This ruined the graduation.
13) When my mom finally agreed to let me stay one more day with Jennifer she told me that her condition is that I don't make "any plans" with Jennifer, such as the next Christmass. I then told my mom that I don't have to defend thesis after next Christmass, so whats wrong with it? She said that I don't know how many free days I will have as a post doc, and Jennifer won't care, if I have plans with her Jennifer will make me follow through no matter what. I then told her that if Institute won't allow me to, I will say so. My mom told me that no I won't and reminded me how I insisted that I was "perfectly ready" and "really wanted" to see Jennifer for previous Christmass despite my defense few weeks later. AGAIN SHE COMPLETELY FORGOT THAT WHEN I WAS PRESENTING ARGUMENTS TO SEE JENNIFER PREVIOUS CHRISTMASS I ALWAYS FRAMED THEM AS "JENNIFER WANTS ME TO DO IT BECAUSE OF X, I DON"T WANT TO DO IT, CAN YOU HELP ME REFUTE X SO I CAN COUNTER JENNIFER". But she forgot all that and decided that I said, FROM MYSELF, that I believed X. Never mind the fact that if I really believed X or really wanted to go to Christmass I won't be asking my mom for advice on how to counter Jennifer. Again, she ignores whenever Jennifer is a victim!
Perhaps the root of all this is perhaps Jennifer is not Jewish?
04 Oct 2009, 2:11 pm
I'm getting the idea through comments such as his mother calling her a "trash can" and so forth that the mother fits the stereotype of a rich jewish woman wanting only to acquire more wealth and status. I know it's only a stereotype and not all jewish people are that way (I know plenty of jewish people that aren't personally), but there is still a group within that are that way, and I have a feeling that his mother is like that judging from his posts (though obviously i have never met her so I can't say for certain)...
04 Oct 2009, 10:38 pm
Roman wrote:
Merle wrote:
Ultimate responsibility for the success and failure lies within the individual. The family is there to help provide guidance and direction - but it is not their life to live. Nor, if they truly cared, would want you to follow their advice 100%.
Disapproval should be expressed, either backed by fact or simply as concern for the relationship. However, it should be tempered with the care/love of those giving the advice to support the individual regardless of their choices.
Otherwise it's just a means of manipulation. And relationships can generally do without external manipulation.
Unless you get a kick out of it, and then it's fun.
Disapproval should be expressed, either backed by fact or simply as concern for the relationship. However, it should be tempered with the care/love of those giving the advice to support the individual regardless of their choices.
Otherwise it's just a means of manipulation. And relationships can generally do without external manipulation.
Unless you get a kick out of it, and then it's fun.
But, based on what you just said, wouldn't you classify what my mom did to be manipulation? Here is what it is:
1) During the remainder of the time before I had to go to North Carolina my mom (NOT me!) said that I her honest advice is that I "throw Jennifer into garbage and wipe my feet off of her", "run away from her as fast as she can", that she is "a wolf with sharp teeth", etc.
2) Again, before North Carolina my mom said that Jennifer is
a) hysteric woman (that was in response to my telling her that Jennifer cries, so again my mom refused to see a clear evidence that Jennifer is a victim and instead used it against her, just like Europe refuses to see that Jews are victims and thus using things against them)
b) that if I go to North Carolina Jennifer will "drag" me into a bed with her and "make sure we have a child" in order to trap me
c) that she will ruin my career because I mentioned that she is against my studying physics (when me, my mom and Jennifer met, my mom asked Jennifer if I would have time to study, I answered yes, and then few minutes later I doulbe-checked with Jennifer if I was right saying yes since I wanted to avoid comming across as lying in Jennifer's favor, and my mom got all over that one little double-check)
d) That Jennifer is fat and no sane guy would ever be with a monster like that, so of course she wants me since I am the only one crazy to be with her
e) That, since Jennifer has polycistic ovaries, which is HORMONAL and would make her INFERTILE, I shouldn't ever be with her (NOTE: it contradicts part b where she is afraid I would get a kid with her)
3) Then she also told my dad (and my dad is in Russia while we were in USA) as to how horrible Jennifer is. He then called me from Russia and left a message that I ran onto a "b***h". When I called him back to talk about it, he told me that Jennifer is a lose woman who sleeps around with all kinds of guys. When I tried to counter him by telling him how there was a particular guy who competed with me to be with her, he said that she made that guy up, and if I remember correctly he also said that no one would seriously want her anyway to back it up.
4) AFTER North Carolina there was another BIG fiasco as to whether or not I should go to Christmass to see her family. UN-like North Carolina, both of my parents had VERY STRONG postition that I absolutely should NOT see her on Christmass, and they would insist on that position even if I do try to openly argue with it. Their reason was that my thesis defense was at the end of January so it would be "ridiculous" to see a family right before the thesis defense. There were quite a few counter-arguments I would bring up (although I would phrame it as "jennifer said X can you help me argue with her" which they would ignore and act as if it was my opinion, just like they ignored it before North Carolina) none of which they heard. They are as follows:
a) I have plenty of time BEFORE Christmass, so I have time to prepare. Their response: what if you won't? My counter-argument: if the defense was BEFORE Christmass, I would be able to prepare, right? So, why can't I pretend it is before Christmass
b) Jennifer told me several times her family will let me study! In fact she said that her dad for the most part just watches TV! They would tell me that Jennifer can't speak for others (even if I CLEARLY tell them she KNOWS them it is her own family) or that they KNOW it is rude if I just study, never mind that Jennifer should be the one concerned if it is rude or not. BOTTOM LINE: they simply don't believe that Jennifer would let me study, they think she lies to me
c) I should go on Dec 22 to California (where my mom lives) to celebrate my grandmother's birthday. PLEASE NOTE: when I decided to cancel BOTH California (where my mom lives) AND Arizona (where Jennifer's family lives), in favor of staying in Michigan to study for the exam, it didn't matter any more that I missed my grandmother's birthday.
d) If I insist on going to Arizona, why don't I go few days later so I can have my last meeting with one of the ppl in my dissertation committee. Well, I was meeting one of them twice a week and the other three times a week, so ONE last meeting didn't matter that much if I had 20 meetings until that one. YET, that meeting WAS important enough to miss my grandmother's birthday, yet Jennifer's family was not (just like the Jews are "not important" when it comes to the way Europe treats them).
5) When I refutted the above arguments, they resorted to openly saying their real concerns:
a) If I go to Arizona Jennifer will force me to marry
b) On top of forcing me to marry her, she will force me to abandone my career as a physicist, and find me a job as a janitor
c) Jennifer is like a garbage can, and other girls are like fine restaurants, and they don't get why I eat from a garbage can while there are 10 fine restaurants just around the block?
6) After Christmass when I was done with my ph.d. defense my mom wanted me back to see my grandmother for a passover. Jennifer on the other hand wanted me in Michigan. My mom was bringing up some strong reasons for me to go to passover, such as my grandomther is old and might die, so when else will I selebrate passover with her, especially since I go to India for postdoc and who knows if I will be able to come back for passover next year. Now PLEASE NOTE: previous years I didn't celebrate passover in California either, because of school. It was never an issue. Yet, once Jennifer was around it became an issue. It is similar to the way how whenever Arabs attack each other it is never an issue, but when Jews are the ones that, supposedly, attack Arabs, it becomes an issue.
7) Right before the passover, Jennifer's grandmother and aunt were in a terrible car accident. They were both having serous hemirages and were unconscious for a few days. Her aunt also bit off her tongue off. Also, it looked like one or both of them were going to die (it turned out that neither died, although her aunt ended up with permanent brain damage so that she acts like 5 year old sometimes). Anyway, I called my mom to make it a reason to see it. Her response:
a) NO, I should see my grandmother because my grandmother has hernia PRE-surgery appointment. By the way, it was April, and my grandmother STILL haven't gotten an actual surgery appointment. Yet, being with my grandmother for her PRE-surgery was more important than attending to Jennifer's family who were actually dying
b) My mom's land lord asked me how do I know Jennifer is telling the truth about the car accident. So in other words, they assume she lies. If someone lies, what do you do? You IGNORE everything they say, just like Europe IGNORED the fate of Jews under Hitler or under Arabs.
c) My mom pointed out how the fact that Jennifer won't go there without me (she is not allowed to see them while they are in intense care, unless they are in a direct family) shows what kind of horrible attitude she has towards her own family
8 ) Since Jennifer didn't want to let me to choose passover with my family over her, I perswaded her to make a compromise, so I took her there with me. She wrote a very long email to my mom detailing all of our past disagreements. In each case she would write three parts: what she (Jennifer) did wrong, what my mom did wrong, and what Jennifer expects different for the future. Even though Jennifer spent JUST AS MUCH time admitting her own mistakes as she did outlining my mom's, my mom TOTALLY IGNORED the part where she admitted her own mistakes and viewed that email as another attack on her, even though the TRUE intention of the email was to make piece. Again, this is similar to the way Europe views Jews. The reason the behavior of Jews towards Arabs is viewed in such a negative light is that they totally IGNORED what Arabs do to Jews. In the same way, the reason the email that Jennifer wrote is viewed in such a negative light is that my mom totally ignored everything that Jennifer said where she admitted her own mistakes. MY MOM THEN WENT AS FAR AS REPRINTING THAT EMAIL AND SHOWING IT TO ALL HER FRIENDS, ALL OF WHICH CONFIRMED THAT THE EMAIL WAS "AN ATTACK". ONE OF HER FRIENDS DID PSYCHOANALYSIS OF THAT EMAIL AND WROTE AN "EVALUATION" OF JENNIFER, all of which was done without her permission!
9) While at the passover, one of my mom's friends (the same one as the one who did the evaluation of the email) said, in Russian, that Jennifer is very ugly (she weighs 250 lbl). Now, everyone there knew Russian except for Jennifer. Then, my grandmother wanted to talk to me because "she haven't seen me for such a long time". When she did talk, she told me how I am such a fair guy and Jennifer is such a monster and she doesn't understand why I was with her. When I told Jennifer what my grandmother said after I talked to her Jennifer was very upset. I then held her hand while there was a concert at our house (it was few days AFTER passover, so the concert had nothing to do with it) and then my mom criticized me for holding her hands during the concert because it "disracts the audience".
10) I then went to see Jennifer's family for easter. It was only for a couple of days. Yet, my mom called Jennifer's family because I didn't call her when she expected. Since Jennifer didn't give any permission to my mom to call her family, this put her in a bad mood and ruined the whole thing.
11) Even though I have defended thesis a few months ago, the official graduation was in May. The ticket back was scheduled on saturday. Jennifer was very upset that I didn't stay with her for Sunday as well. I first accused my mom as to why did she "forget" to schedule ticket for sunday. She pointed out that I forgot it too, since she asked me if the saturday ticket was okay. I then started whining as to what to do to "fix" it now that we forgot. She had no answer, as if she OVERLOOKED something obvous: change the ticket (just like Europe "overlooked" the option of bombing railroads leading to concentration camps). I THEN SHOVED THAT OPTION INTO HER FACE, AND PRESNTED IT AS MY OWN WISH NOT HERS (just like Jews, after being tried with seeing the world ingoring that option during WW2, they shove the option of self-defence into the world's face as they deal with Palestinians) but my mom ACTIVELY argued against it (just like the world actively argues against Israel's self defense). We had a week long fight, which consisted on me pointing out why is ONE SINGLE DAY matter so much, and my mom telling me some lame things as someone has to teach me to sing and he only has 2 days so one more day would help. Well c'mon 2 days or 3 days don't make a difference! Her other excuse was that she felt sick while at my graduation so she wanted me to accompany her on a plane back, and she was going back on Saturday. Well, she is over protective so she NEVER expects me to take care of her while sick, so this was clearly a plot for her to separate me from Jennifer.
12) Before graduation she asked me if Jennifer is comming, I said I didn't bring up a subject to her, and that I was going to call her and ask. My mom stopped me from calling her and saying that she would feel more comfortable without her. I didn't call. Then the next day I felt angry that I didn't call, and when graduation neared I wanted to call her to get her come as fast as possible so she won't be late. MY MOM DENIED WHAT SHE DID YESTERDAY (just like Europe denies the fate of the Jews) and told me that she REMINDED me to call her and I CHOSE not to. Well, its like she thinks I am stupid that I would think that telling me NOT to call her amounts to reminding me to call her. Anyway, I then outbursted during graduation by running up to a chair mad and swearing at him. Then after that I wanted to "fix" it. So when me, my mom, and Jennifer were supposed to meet, I ran off away from BOTH of them to look for a chair man. Then while I was gone, my mom attacked Jennifer -- for instance Jennifer said that my mom told her that I was scared of her which is why I ran. Again, my mom IGNORES a scenario that Jennifer might be a victim (i.e. I decided to disrespect Jennifer by running), and the only way to do it is to say that Jennifer is a threat (i.e. I was scared of her which is why I ran). This ruined the graduation.
13) When my mom finally agreed to let me stay one more day with Jennifer she told me that her condition is that I don't make "any plans" with Jennifer, such as the next Christmass. I then told my mom that I don't have to defend thesis after next Christmass, so whats wrong with it? She said that I don't know how many free days I will have as a post doc, and Jennifer won't care, if I have plans with her Jennifer will make me follow through no matter what. I then told her that if Institute won't allow me to, I will say so. My mom told me that no I won't and reminded me how I insisted that I was "perfectly ready" and "really wanted" to see Jennifer for previous Christmass despite my defense few weeks later. AGAIN SHE COMPLETELY FORGOT THAT WHEN I WAS PRESENTING ARGUMENTS TO SEE JENNIFER PREVIOUS CHRISTMASS I ALWAYS FRAMED THEM AS "JENNIFER WANTS ME TO DO IT BECAUSE OF X, I DON"T WANT TO DO IT, CAN YOU HELP ME REFUTE X SO I CAN COUNTER JENNIFER". But she forgot all that and decided that I said, FROM MYSELF, that I believed X. Never mind the fact that if I really believed X or really wanted to go to Christmass I won't be asking my mom for advice on how to counter Jennifer. Again, she ignores whenever Jennifer is a victim!
Total 100% manipulation. Yes, there are many reasons behind it and we can apply cute little terms to it (e.g. living her life through you, worried about losing her child, fear of change, etc.).
But basically, she's trying to be a parent in the truest sense of the word.
Yes, she's your mother and there's a certain amount of guilt which goes with it. But boy-o-boy, you have a serious issue on your hands:
Do you help her understand who you are?
Do you walk away and live your life, maintain intermittent contact?
Do you take her advice with a grain of salt and use it as additional data points?
Do you just listen to her as it's easier?
If you're 18-24, I'd advise just taking what she says with a grain of salt and listen to her as you're likely to need her in the near future. If you're in your 40's, then you're probably better maintaining intermittent contact. If you're in your 50's and older, you may want to seek closure and try to have her (from your own PoV) understand what her actions have done to you.
But personally - egads. I'd move away and break contact for a while. Family, especially mothers, generate a lot of deep feelings. If you're not prepared to swim in those murky depths, don't go there.
05 Oct 2009, 1:20 am
ToadOfSteel wrote:
I'm getting the idea through comments such as his mother calling her a "trash can" and so forth that the mother fits the stereotype of a rich jewish woman wanting only to acquire more wealth and status. I know it's only a stereotype and not all jewish people are that way (I know plenty of jewish people that aren't personally), but there is still a group within that are that way, and I have a feeling that his mother is like that judging from his posts (though obviously i have never met her so I can't say for certain)...
My mom is not rich (she is lower middle class) and her comment about Jennifer being "grabage can" was referring to personality and health as opposed to financial situation (she didn't ask me how Jennifer does financially).
HOWEVER, my mom still fits every single other stereotype of a Jewish mother that there is on a planet:
1) She didn't approve of either of the two girls I was involved with (both of which were not Jewish). But then I had that roommate who WAS Jewish and whom I didn't like, and she felt it was so horrible I wasn't with her. I guess to be honest it more seems like she tried to use that roommate to get me off of the first girl since she thinks I am too young to date, Jewish or not, and also that roommate was referring to herself and me as "friends". But still, it doesn't change the fact that her attitude is that if I want to date so badly, I better date someone Jewish.
2) Even though she si not rich she is still very materialistic in her ATTITUDE about money, whenever I am irresponsible with money this is a disaster for her. She was also shocked when she saw how much money I spent with Jennifer during the trip to North Carolina; but from what Jennifer told me it si normal to spend a lot of money on vocation
3) She is very overprotective, just like Jewish mothers are known to be
4) I have noticed how she has fascination with Jewish names. I have noticed it by the fact that whenever she talks about some of her friends that have distincly Jewish last name, she refers them by their last name and not just the first name, just so she can pronounce the Jewish name
5) Once before i left to India for postdoc we invited the psychologist I used to have in high school just to say goodbye I guess. Anyway, there was a conversation about chain letters or pyramid schemes. In that conversation my mom commented that some specific Jewish person "invented" them (I don't remember who taht was, but she told me his name). She was quickly corrected that they existed before that person. But anyway, she was PRAISING that person for inventing "something so clever". So, as long as she thinks it is done by someone Jewish, it becomes automatically praiseworthy, even if it is a scam.
6) When I was applying to postdocs at one instance I remember she asked my landlord to show her a photograph of one of the professors I was interested in. I asked why, and landlord said that she wanted to see if that person was Jewish or not.
7) When I was starting graduate school she didn't want me to go far away from home (I did my undergrad at UC Berkeley and since my mom lives in Berkeley, CA, I stayed at home). In fact, she wanted to hold me back a year so that I can raise my GPA and go to UC Berkeley for graduate school as well. When it became clear that stopping me from applying to graduate schools far away won't work, she had an idea that I go to school in Israel because she trusts her own people and, thus, my being far away won't be so much of an issue since other Jews would be very supportive of my disability. I never went there by the way. I simply told her it is stupid.
Speaking of her attitude towards Israel, I went to birthright tour to Israel three years ago, which is free for everyone who are born Jewish. Anyway, that tour started right at the very first day of bombing from the Lebanon. Most of the parents were worried. But my mom was one of the very few parents who were NOT, since she so much loves Israel that nothing would possibly happen to me while I am there. It is very unusual of her NOT to worry by the way, usually she is one of the MOST worried parents, even among Jewish parents.
9) Once Yael, who is the daughter of my mom's landlord's friend was comming to USA and she was supposed to make money by taking care of some elderly person, who is also a friends of the landlord. There was another woman who was taking care of that person before her, her name was Johan, and she was NOT Jewish. Anyway, Yael claimed that Johan wasn't taking care of that person well enough, and was trying to get Johan to do things differently than she did before she came. So there was a lot of fighting and eventually Yael was kicked out of the house. Anyway, even though my mom knew Yael only THROUGH the landlord, somehow my mom was totally on Yael's side while the landlord was not. More than that, when they were trying to find her another place to stay after she was kicked out, my mom was suggesting some Jewish woman she can stay with, and her argument was "she feels Jewish while Johan obviously dooesn't; in fact Johan probably feels anti-Jewish". As if my mom doesn't see that it doesn't have anythign to do with Johan being anti-Jewish or Yael needing someone who feels Jewish; it ahs to do with Yael being over-controlling.
10) Eventually Yael ended up staying in our place. So at one time she smoked Marijana. Both my mom's landlord, as well as my mom's mom were completely angry with Yael. My mom wasn't; i guess my mom can't be mad at anyone Jewish.
05 Oct 2009, 1:28 am
CelticGoddess wrote:
Roman, your mother is one part clash of cultures with a huge dose of "omg that's a nightmare to deal with." In a case like yours, I would say that the less you tell her the better. The less she knows, the less she can comment on. Chances are, no woman will ever meet her standards unless she hand picked her, herself. Jennifer must have balls of steel to stick this out because I'm not sure I could hack it.
Well, my initial intention was to keep ALL Of the girls i date from my mom. But the two long term girls I had both forced me to tell my mom about them. So what can I do to avoid this in future?
I guess it might be my fault that they forced me since I didn't tell them my mom would disapprove and instead I told them I wanted to "maintain the image of a physicist who doesn't do anything but physics". I guess that is because I didn't know myself my mom would disapprove, until after I met Jennifer. But from where I now sit, I see that the whole "image of a physicist" thing might well have been a consequence of the fact that whenever I express feelings they get disapproved, so I trained myself not to express any.
So now that i know all that, I can simply tell the girls it is my mom's disapproval thing and not even mention any of my other issues since they are merely consequences which I weren't consciuosly aware of. But is it likely that the future girls would agree not to tell my family if I present it that way, or will they still insist I tell them? What do you think?
05 Oct 2009, 2:01 am
Shebakoby wrote:
Perhaps the root of all this is perhaps Jennifer is not Jewish?
So why not be honest and straightout say "Jennifer is not Jewish so I don't want you dating her". The funny thing is that within this whole time she knew about Jennifer, which was now over a year, she never once mentioned anything about her not being Jewish. Instead, somewhere, somehow something was inconvenient so for some weird reason I couldn't do this or taht with Jennifer just now. And I left wonder why.
My mom is not the only example of a Jew who behaves this way. Do you know that in Israel the Messianic Jews (the Jews that believe in Jesus) are under attack from regular Jews, and a lot of them get PHYSICALLY hurt. One such example is a kid opening a present box that has explosive on it. And then, of course, there are some orthodox Jews who come weekly in front of the house of Messianic Jews to chant how much they hate Jesus and oftentimes they physically beat Messianic Jews up.
Now, of course, the number of Jews that are openly violent towards Messianic Jews is far fewer than 50%. But what the rest of the Jews are guilty of is IGNORING Messianic Jews and FORGETTING to defend them. When Messianic Jews complain to police about the violence that they experience, the best response that they get is that they will "look into it" and then as the time passes, police never "gets around" to look at it, because there are too many other cases. Then, while they get no response and the violence keeps happening, they will go to the police again and again, and eventually police will tell them to "stop bothering them". Then, there was one Messianic Jew who got fed up with all the violence that he got from regular Jews FOR YEARS, and he finally decided to fight back. Guess what, the next day HE (the Messianic Jew) was arrested for violence.
This is very similar to the way my mom treats Jennifer. Before North Carolina when I was attacking Jennifer my mom (who is Jewish) refused to defend her (and Jennifer is Christian), just like Israeli police refuses to defend Messianic Jews (my attack on Jennifer was fake, and the only intention was to get my mom to defend her, which she never did no matter how hard I tried). Then when that particular Messianic Jew fought back, it was very similar to the way Jennifer fought back. And in both cases the person who fought back was punished: Messianic Jew was punished for being "violent" and Jennifer is punished for being "controlling".
The funny thing is that this is the exact treatment that the Jews are getting from antisemitic non-Jews. Do you konw that the Jews during the holocaust could have been saved if only Europe would either let Jews migrate into their contries or at least bomb railways leading to concentration camps? In fact there were proposals to do just that, but somehow the planes couldn't EXACTLY reach the railways, even though they were all around tehse locations, as long as the purpose was something other than bombing them. Why couldn't they just honestly say "we are not going to bomb railways because Jews killed Jesus Christ so they deserve exactly what they are getting"?
I think it is very similar to the way Europe in its campaign against Israel never once mentioned that Jews killed Jesus Christ. In fact, they never accused Israel of a single thing Israel didn't, in fact, do. Their tactic is NOT to invent something anti-Jewish, but rather ignore things that are pro-Jewish. In particular, they ignore that Palestine has attacked Israel first, and Israel is merely defending itself. So if you IGNORE that Palestine attacked Israel first, how can you possibly interpret Israeli actions in any way OTHER than terror.
Well the funny thing is that Jews are no better in this respect. My mom is one example of a Jew who mistreats non-Jews by IGNORING them, and Israeli police is another such example. This same pattern even existed in bibli cal times:
Quote:
Mark 3
1And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
2And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
3And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
4And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
5And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
1And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
2And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
3And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
4And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
5And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
Now look at the thing in bold in the above passage: "but they had their piece". That is the Jewish way of doing things: instead of being HONEST they EVADE the question. Well, that is also the way antisemitic non-Jews treat the Jews as well, whether it be failure to bomb railways or failure to notice that Palestinians attacked Israel first.
Now, less than three years afterwards, these same Jews who "held their piece" were yelling very loudly "let him be crucified", "his blood be on us and on our children", etc. There is an interesting parallel here. Europe also "held its piece" during the holocaust. But then during Israeli Palesitinian conflict they don't hold their piece; they are very vocal against Israel. Likewise, Israeli police "held its piece" when a Messianic Jew was being attacked. But when he foguth back they no longer held their piece but hurried up and arrested him instead. Now, what happened in both instances? Well, the party taht wanted to hold its piece wasn't allowed to, so it started to FIGHT just to hold a piece. In case of Jews they really wanted to IGNORE message of Jesus. Let me stress it -- they didn't want to oppose it, they just wanted to ignore it, since they were far too concerned with not eating with their hands unwashed to even bother. But once tehy couldn't IGNORE, they became agressive in order ot do just that. In case of Europe same thing. Europe wants to IGNORE what is being done to the Jews, whether it is being done by Hitler or by Palestinians. In case of Hitler, they successfully ignored it, so they had their piece. But in case of Palestinians they weren't allowed to, since Israel, herself, started to DO SOMETHING about the very thing they were trying to "ignore", so now they have to yell and protest just so that they can hold their piece again. And finally Israeli police wanted to IGNORE what was being done to a Messianic Jew, but once they failed, they had to arrest Messianic Jew for violence.
Now, lets go back to my mom. Did my mom attack Jennifer from the very beginning? No. As you will see from this thread ( http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt108539.html ) where i described it in more detail, it started from MY trying to attack Jennifer and my mom IGNORING my attacks and FORGETTING to defend her. So she held her piece, just like Jews in Jesus' time did. But then Jennifer didn't let her hold her piece, so then she had to protest (much like Jews had to yell " his blood be upon us and upon our children" and also just like Europe has to yell "Israel is using excessive force").
Let me close with this: when I was little my mom was going to give me a medicine before I had to go to bed. I said "I don't want calcium, don't you see that since it tastes so bad my body tells me that it doesn't need it". My mom's responds in a very sweet voice: "Tak eto zhe ne kaltsij, eto zh theralene" (which means, in Russian, "this is not calcium, it is theralene"). Now, theralene, which was given to me to fight allergy, was also a sedative (see here http://www.flexyx.com/T/Theralene.html# ). The way sedatives work is by RUINING BRAIN CELLS. So why doesn't my body says there is anything wrong with theralene? Because it is coated!! ! So, my mom doesn't bother refute the "trust your own body" theory; she simply LIES to me that my body doesn't have anything against the pill, by coating it! Well, that is the way she treats the whole Jennifer business. And that is also the way Jews treat non-Jews in general, and similarly it is the way antisemites treat Jews as well. Jews and non Jews fight each other with threralene, and they give each other theralebe ti fught theralene! Orthodox Jews gave theralene to a Messianic Jew in Israel, and so does Europe gives theralene to regular Jews (whether in Israel or during World War 2). My mom gives theralene to Jennifer. In all cases theralene is coated, and it is always about "holding one's piece", but once the targetted party refuses to take terralene, thats when agression begines. The only difference is that only some portion of non-Jews are interested to fight Jews with theralene, while for Jews the desire to give theralene to non-Jews is very mainstream.
Last edited by Roman on 05 Oct 2009, 6:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
05 Oct 2009, 2:39 am
Merle wrote:
Total 100% manipulation. Yes, there are many reasons behind it and we can apply cute little terms to it (e.g. living her life through you,
Well, she does live her life through me. She doesn't like beef, so she assumes I don't like beef either. Her stomach feels heavy after she eats beef, so she assumes mine does too. In case of food, she assumes my tastes are 100% like hers.
Also, since the backpack I carry would be heavy for her, she assumes it is heavy for me as well. Her uncles are easilly getting dislocated, so, for that reason, she makes sure I tie my shoes well -- in fact when I do it myself it is never good enough, when I am in California she bends down and ties my shoes for me, unless I rush out of the appartment before she walks downstairs. Also, when I was younger she was worried when I walk in dark, because she is scared of walking in dark, although she got over this specific thing now that I have walked in dark enough times.
Merle wrote:
worried about losing her child,
Yes, she treats me like a child. It took a lot of fighting to even let her allow me to go far away from home. She still babysits me as much as she can:
1) When I visit her, if I study, she would walk into my room without knocking the door whenver she has to ask me something
2) If she walks into my room, and there is a mess in a table, she would make me stop studying and clean up all the mess (even if I am in the middle of calculation, and it takes half an hour to clean a mess)
3) Whenever I have to go somewhere she buys me tickets instead of letting me do that myself
4) Right now it is harder since I am in India, but when I was living in USA, she was visitting me every two months. She is a consultant in a school for the deaf so she was finding schools for the deaf in the areas where I live and set up "consultation appointments" there. She would typically come on Thursday and leave on Tuesday so she can spend weekend with me. But the last few months when I was in Michign, when she knew about Jennfier, she started extending her stays for the entire week.
5) She thinks that, because of my scoliosis, I have to sign up for yoga. Every second time she talks to me, she keps mentioning yoga. She doesn't get that yoga is an OPTION, not a must
6) Whenever she gets an idea of what I can do to better my career, she would push it until I do that. For example, she decided that since I had trouble settling down in India they probably don't like me, so she thinks I should rpesent my work here in order to make them like me. Now, ever since I caught her on that, she denies this to be a reason. So if that is not a reason, I should probably believe that it just "randomly occured" to her htat I should present my work here. If so, how come she pushes it so hard that I do? After all the past few years I was going to conferences to other schools to present, and she never once mentioned I should present it in the school I am at. But now, just because it HAPPENED to occur to her, she became OBSESSED that I do it!
7) She keeps worrying that I would forget certain details, and she kept thinking of what I should do the world over and give me a DETAILED instruction. Case in point: she was told that in India there is a rainly season starting from the second half of October, and there are a special high boots you have to wear. So she sent me an email asking me to find out the store and the way to get to that store so I can buy them. So why is she thinking I would remember to buy them WITHOUT remembering to find the way to the store? What would I do? Would I just go in radnom direction and think I would randomly ran into the store?
Merle wrote:
fear of change, etc.).
Yeah thats her too. Whenever there is a change that SHE didn't think of herself, it is always a bad hting. Her automatic reaction to new, unexpected, information is almost always the negative one, before she even had time to process it.
Merle wrote:
But basically, she's trying to be a parent in the truest sense of the word.
Thats because she thinks I am much younger than my age. I am already 29, but she thinks that psychologically I am 12.
Merle wrote:
Yes, she's your mother and there's a certain amount of guilt which goes with it.
What guilt are you referring to?
Merle wrote:
Do you help her understand who you are?
It depends on waht you are referring to. If you refer to her asking me to clean up a table, as well as reminding me of htings, YES. Whenever she brings something up like buying boots, I would start a long argument with her as to why she whouthg I would remember to buy boots but forget to find out a way to the store. She would simply deny that there was anything wrong with it, and say that she had "just asked". But the fact of a matter is that back when I was living in USA when she actually KNEW more details to guide me, she would shove them into my ear no matter how many times I would interrupt her and tell her I can think of it myself. Her strategy is to say "yes I know you will think of everything yourself, but did you think of this little thing" I say YES, and then she say "and how about this little thing", etc. until she goes through EVERYTHING, and then when I confront her she would completely deny how hard she was trying to remind me and just say "she was just mentioned it out of politeness".
Merle wrote:
Do you walk away and live your life, maintain intermittent contact?
I live in India, she lives in USA. She doesn't have my phone number, so I have to call her. I don't, unless she emails me and asks to call her. But when she emails me she says something like "very important news, please call". So OF COURSE I call if I don't know what the "very important news" are. What if it is something horrible like her saying she is going to come over. Now, if she doesn't say "very important news" then I usually don't call right away, but then she would send me three or four more emails within the next day telling me that she is worried.
Merle wrote:
Do you take her advice with a grain of salt and use it as additional data points?
There were a lot of times when I didn't listen to her advice:
1) Starting from high school on my mom, and the rest of the family as well, were thinking I overfocus on physics too much and might overload myself, and that I need to take weekends off. I was still overfocussing on physics no matter what they said.
2) While in high school I took math and physics in college. I usually took 2 math courses and 1 physics course. She thought it was too much. I did it anyway.
3) As a result of college courses interfering with high school work, I was behind in everything else. Yet, I wanted to gradute a year early, which required me to ask high school to let me take more courses than students are allowed within a junior year so I can graduate by the end of junior. Again, my mom was against it since she thought I would overload myself, but I did that anyway.
4) I took 5 courses a semester while in college. She thought it was too much. I still took 5 courses no matter what she said.
5) I graduated college a year early. She wanted me to stay a year more, mainly because she was hoping I would raise my GPA and get into UC Berkeley, which is where I live. But I graduated a year early anyway
6) Since I insisted on graduating and going to graduate school early, she wanted me to apply to schools near where I live. I applied to schools far away in order to prove to her I can live on my own.
7) When I was applying for post doc, she didn't want me to go to India because she was afraid I would get some dangerous disease, or that I would be isolated scientifically (since most important conferences are in Europe or USA) so she wanted me to postpone post doc so I can try and get into other places. I went to India regardless of what she said.
I guess standing up for love is much harder. I am USED to standing up to physics, so I take it as a COMPLIMENT if they say something like I study too much and would overload myself, so I actually ENJOY standing up for that. But if I stand up for love it would be totally inconsistent with physics. After all, if I am so much into physics that I don't even care about anything else (it took A LOT of effort for my mom to make me go see movie because I had to study), how come not only I found love on my own without anyone pushing me to, but I can even stand up for it? That is very inconsistent, and that uis the main obstacle that I have.
In fact, even before I kenw my mom would disapprove I was hiding all the girls from her, just to be consistent with someone who "just wants to study". So even if my mom wanted me to date, I would still hide from her that I am dating just to be consistent. Now do you see how it is 10 times harder if she DOESN"T want me to date?
Merle wrote:
Do you just listen to her as it's easier?
Before I had Jennifer, I was standing up both for studying hard AND for staying away from home. That is EXACTLY as much as I want to stand up on my own and that is EXACTLY what is easier (living with her is not easy since then I would be agonizing every day how horrible it is I am again with her while most ppl are not living with their parents). But as far as PLANS my mom makes (such as she wants to visit me at such a time or she wants me to go to Urkaine) THAT is where it is easier to just listen to her, after all they only take a small portion of a year, so no one asks me to live with my mom, so why not just do it to avoid the conflict? I am sure Sarah (my first gf) would allow me to listen to her as far as the latter is concerned; but Jennifer threw a big fuss over it and was pushing me not to even though for me it would have been easier if I just listened to her.
Merle wrote:
If you're 18-24, I'd advise just taking what she says with a grain of salt and listen to her as you're likely to need her in the near future. If you're in your 40's, then you're probably better maintaining intermittent contact. If you're in your 50's and older, you may want to seek closure and try to have her (from your own PoV) understand what her actions have done to you.
But personally - egads. I'd move away and break contact for a while. Family, especially mothers, generate a lot of deep feelings. If you're not prepared to swim in those murky depths, don't go there.
But personally - egads. I'd move away and break contact for a while. Family, especially mothers, generate a lot of deep feelings. If you're not prepared to swim in those murky depths, don't go there.
I am 29.
Last edited by Roman on 05 Oct 2009, 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
05 Oct 2009, 2:49 am
zena4 wrote:
If I was your Jennifer, I would never marry you.
I would hate to have your mother as a mother-in-law
Sorry to say Roman.
I would hate to have your mother as a mother-in-law
Sorry to say Roman.
Now do you see how unfair it is? Why do I have to lose women over something I CAN"T HELP, such as my mom's opinion of me?
For instance, I still am not over Anne, a girl who rejected me back in 2005 because "your mom sounds like she shelters you and it seems that your ex-girlfriend did the same; if you would be expecting this from someone in a relationship, this is an area where I just couldn't handle" (see more detail in this thread http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt5922.html ) So how come she said "if YOU would be expecting this of someone in a relationship" if *I* don't want it -- in fact I effectively dumped Sarah (I stopped responding to her for three months which eventually made her dump me) because of this very thing -- she "sheltered" me as Anne said. So, obviously I DON"T expect it. Yet, assumptions are being made about ME because of behavior of others around me.
Now I know you are not accusing me of anything you are saying that you wouldn't want my mom for a mother in law. But still, don't you see how unfair it is? Why should *I* bear consequences for soemone else's behavior if I can't control that other person?
05 Oct 2009, 2:54 am
zena4 wrote:
Theralene is a good medication but it's also well known to put childrend to sleep (and get rid of them by the same way).
True, I got theralene to put me to sleep. But the other purpose was to make me less hyperactive. So hyperactivity refers to day, not night. This means that it carries over to the following day.
I see what is wrong with not being able to fall asleep: you will be sleepy the next day. But what can possibly be wrong with being hyperactive? Being sleepy makes you less productive; being hyperactive makes you MORE productive. So not being able to fall asleep is a bad thing; being hyperactive is a GOOD thing.
Why did my mom treat being hyperactive as a bad thing? Because society views it as such, so she wanted to sacrifice something that is objectively good to please society.
This is actually the point that my mom doesn't get. For instance, she was against my taking so much college math and physics while I was still in high school, and she was also against my rushing through college to get to graduate school as fast as I can. Why? Because she believes that a development should be "even", so since my social skills as well as knowledge of humanity courses is so far behind, by pushing math and physics even further ahead I make my development even less even. But what she doesn't get is this: how do you define what is even and what isn't? In order to do that, you have to say which milestone in math or physics corresponds to which milestone in social skills. The way you do it is by observing NT-s and trying to sacrifice my progress in math in physics JUST to accomodate NT standards was the exact mistake my mom wanted to make (I didn't let her to, as I was still taking all the classes I ever wanted to take even if it meant fighting with her for months).
Now, with hyperactivity it is similar. How does she know whether I am hyperactive or not? By comparing me to NT-s. So she wanted to kill my brain cells just to make me more similar to NT, just like she wanted to slow down my progress with courses in order to make me more in line with NT-s as well. Diabetes is radically different from either of these examples. In case of diabetes, it is OBJECTIVELY worse for a diabetic himself; he doesn't have to compare himself to anyone else to figure it out. The reason a body won't warn you against diabetes is that, as collista said, your body is evolved for a different climate. But in case of hyperactivity or Asperger, it has nothing to do with climate; the reason your body doesn't like theralene is simoply that neither hyperactivity nor Asperger is bad, if it wasn't for judgmenetal people around.
05 Oct 2009, 8:45 am
I don't know about your mother, I never met her, but what I know is that if you talked as much as a child as you write now as an adult, it was certainly exhausting to take care of you.
But that is certainly a thing you never seriously thought of, as I can see.
That your mother could be tired.
Needed sleep and silence for herself.
Could you consider that?
And if she does as she does now, it can be that you, as a child, used her that way.
But mind you! I'm not putting a fault or anything on a child, a little boy who had so much of energy in his brain and his body.
But... was your mother alone to raise you, take care of you?
Because an adult has a lot of things to do and to think as well. Plus the children.
Were you just the two of you or did you have your father too?
06 Oct 2009, 7:07 am
zena4 wrote:
I don't know about your mother, I never met her, but what I know is that if you talked as much as a child as you write now as an adult, it was certainly exhausting to take care of you.
But that is certainly a thing you never seriously thought of, as I can see.
That your mother could be tired.
Needed sleep and silence for herself.
Could you consider that?
But that is certainly a thing you never seriously thought of, as I can see.
That your mother could be tired.
Needed sleep and silence for herself.
Could you consider that?
Let me tell you few things in this regard:
THING NUMBER 1:
Compare the TEMPORARY damage I do to her by making her tired through hyperactivity, and PERMANENT damage she does to me by giving me theralene, which probably has some effect on early brain development. Don't you think it is not worth it do do lifelong permanent damage to me just so that she can have piece and quiet for a year or two? Also, why not use some other techniques, like reward/punishment or psychotherapy to get me to calm down? I am sure it might be hard, but still possible. On the other hand, once they kill off my brain cells with theralene, it is no longer possible to get them back by "teaching" me to be "smarter".
Now, this seems like what NT-s are doing in general. I am sure a lot of girls who rejected me, and professors who refused working with me, did that precisely because I was making them tired. Now, the girls who rejected me have harmed my self esteem to such an extend that I had to sacrifice my career as I was online obsessively looking for their replacements. Professors who refused working with me have hurt my career directly since I was nearly expelled due to not having an advisor. Now, how much would I have hurt either the girls or professors? I would have ONLY made them tired. Yes it is bad; but not nearly as bad as ruining someone's career or self esteem. I been to loud places. High school was one example. Yes it was bad. But I felt relieve once I got out. On the other hand, I don't have relief once I get out of someone who rejects me; I obsess over that person.
Now, I know you are going to tell me it is not their job to accomodate me. But let me tell you this. As an aspie I am sure you, yourself, do something that makes people uncomfortable. After all, if such was not the case, then aspies wouldn't have had trouble making friends. Also, I am sure all NT-s have a lot of things on their plate, and if someone had enough of a stress, they don't want more stress to be around someone they are not comfortable with. So, are you saying they are justified in avoiding aspies, which would include you? No. But then how come my Asperger is worse than other people's? How come NT-s should accomodate other aspies, but somehow I am an exception?
THING NUMBER 2:
My mom didn't just pull something out of the store and gave me. SHe has consulted with a doctor on what to do about my allergies. That doctor believed in alternative medicine and she said that she should deal with "my whole body" rather than just allergies. So she put me on a special diet, that didn't have a lot of meat, but had a lot of vegies. I had to eat buckweet every mornign and cottage cheese every evening. Now these are just a couple of things; but it was a very complicated diet that she wrote several pages which probably my mom doesn't remember any more either.
Well, theralene was part of that program. In fact, it wasn't even available in Russian stores, my mom had to order it from France to give it to me! From what the doctor told her, apart from allergies I also had neirodermites which is related to overactive nervous system, so she had to give me some medicine that would "calm me down" because it would "calm down my skin" as well.
Anyway, I think this diet has compromised my growth in that I didn't have a lot of meat, and when I did it was chicken rather than beef. Right now my bone structure is very thin and I don't have a lot of muscles. I believe that diet is why. But my mom doesn't think that, she thinks I enheritted it from her, even though my dad is much stronger than that.
How do I know that is what she thinks? Well, when she was pregnant, she was told that since she has such a small size, she should eat very little in order not to have difficult pregnancy. SHE HERSELF ADMITS IT WAS A MISTAKE. In fact she realized it was a mistake right when I was born when she saw how hungry I was constantly crying and then she was told by few mothers she made a mistake and she believed them. So, in this context, I asked her could that be why my bones are so thin? She said no, it is genetic. So you see how she is DETERMINED to believe that it is genetic, even though she knows she made a mistake?
Well, in her case when she was little she never had a lot of appetitie. She described how her parents were trying to get her to eat, and she never would. So IN HER CASE she is right, her body was genetically programmed to be small, which is why she didn't need much food: if she were to force herself to eat more her body would simply reject it, or put it towards fat. So, since she assumes I am just like her, she thinks my body is similarly programmed for short growth, which means that it similarly doesn't need much food; that is why she was willing to put me on a diet that the doctor suggested since she figured I wuold end up with small bones and no muscles anyway.
But that is where is is wrong. I am NOT just like her. There are several examples to illustrate it (let me put it in "quote" just so that they will be clearly separated from the main line of thought):
Quote:
a) FOOD:
(i) She assumes I like the same food as her. She doesn't like beef and she likes lamb. She assumes I am the same way. I AM NOT. I like both meets, and I don't even know how to distinguish one from the other!
(ii) She doesn't like to drink milk so she assumes I don't either. But I do
(iii) She likes leak soup (leak is a sort of an onion), so she assumed I did as well
(iv) She likes tomatoes, so she assumes I do too, and she gives me a lot of them
b) PHYSICAL NEEDS:
(i) Her uncle is easilly dislocated, so she assumes mine is, too, which is why she is obsessed that I tie my shoes very tight. But actually most of the time I barely tie them at all, and nothing happened to me
(ii) The backpack that I carry is too heavy for her and she tries to argue with me not to put so much books there. But actually when I cary it I don't feel its weight at all
(iii) Once when she swam out there was storm and she couldn't get to the store. Now she is worried whenever I swim out far away and tells me not to, even though nothing like that EVER happened with me. Now, she is also afraid to swim far away in a lake, even though there is no storm in a lake, so she is worried when I swim far away in a lake, as well
(iv) She is afraid to go when its dark, so she is worried when I do, too
c) INSECURITIES:
(i) When she was little she was afraid of strangers. So when she had a guests comming over and I couldn't stop doing my math or physics homework, she would tell them that I simply feel insecure to meet them. Well, in my case this had nothing to do with insecurity -- I simply didn't feel like stopping doing math or physics. She knows that I have difficulty stopping, for instance, I won't stop if she calls me to eat, and I won't go to bed on time because I can't stop. Yet, somehow, in case of ppl comming over she decided that I was "hiding" from them
(ii) When she was little she was too insecure to be far away from her parents. In fact, when her mother was off work, she kept counting hours because she was desperate to see her back; eventually, her mother was taking her TO work. I believe this has something to do with her not wanting me to go to school far away from home, since SHE never would have.
(i) She assumes I like the same food as her. She doesn't like beef and she likes lamb. She assumes I am the same way. I AM NOT. I like both meets, and I don't even know how to distinguish one from the other!
(ii) She doesn't like to drink milk so she assumes I don't either. But I do
(iii) She likes leak soup (leak is a sort of an onion), so she assumed I did as well
(iv) She likes tomatoes, so she assumes I do too, and she gives me a lot of them
b) PHYSICAL NEEDS:
(i) Her uncle is easilly dislocated, so she assumes mine is, too, which is why she is obsessed that I tie my shoes very tight. But actually most of the time I barely tie them at all, and nothing happened to me
(ii) The backpack that I carry is too heavy for her and she tries to argue with me not to put so much books there. But actually when I cary it I don't feel its weight at all
(iii) Once when she swam out there was storm and she couldn't get to the store. Now she is worried whenever I swim out far away and tells me not to, even though nothing like that EVER happened with me. Now, she is also afraid to swim far away in a lake, even though there is no storm in a lake, so she is worried when I swim far away in a lake, as well
(iv) She is afraid to go when its dark, so she is worried when I do, too
c) INSECURITIES:
(i) When she was little she was afraid of strangers. So when she had a guests comming over and I couldn't stop doing my math or physics homework, she would tell them that I simply feel insecure to meet them. Well, in my case this had nothing to do with insecurity -- I simply didn't feel like stopping doing math or physics. She knows that I have difficulty stopping, for instance, I won't stop if she calls me to eat, and I won't go to bed on time because I can't stop. Yet, somehow, in case of ppl comming over she decided that I was "hiding" from them
(ii) When she was little she was too insecure to be far away from her parents. In fact, when her mother was off work, she kept counting hours because she was desperate to see her back; eventually, her mother was taking her TO work. I believe this has something to do with her not wanting me to go to school far away from home, since SHE never would have.
Anyway, going back to the diet, I believe what happened is that she thought I was just like her, so she decided that since her body woouldn't grow much, mine wouldn't either. Thats why it was okay to put me on that diet with not much meat, since it would have been okay FOR HER to be on that diet. Consequently, she is not going to believe that I have thin bones because of that diet; after all I am supposed to be just like her, and she has even thinner bones.
But anyway, going back to theralene since that doctor thought it was okay to put me on a diet that compromised my bone growth, as long as it cured my allergies, I am sure the doctor also felt it was okay to put me on a medication that compromised my mental development, as long as it accomplishing the goal of curing allergies. Sure, that doctor said that her concern was "the body as a whole" which is why she went beyond doing things that adressed allergies directly (which would be removing allergines -- which was fish and blooming). But that doctor's philosophy was that it is not necessery to be superman physically, or to be a savant mentally, as long as I don't have any areas where I am below average, such as allergies. Since theralene, obviusly, didn't make me mentally ret*d, it was okay to give it to me; she didn't care that I would no longer be as far above average as I wish to be. But I do.
THING NUMBER 3:
My mom describes me as a very quiet child who was always thinking about something and living in my own world. In fact, she said that when she talked to other parents who complained about their kids being trouble makers she was proud to say that I weren't. Now, it wasn't because of theralene. Based on what she said I was on theralene only a small portion of my childhood; yet being quiet was my major feature. So this means that I can't possibly caused ACTUAL trouble to her. In fact, how can she have it both ways and said that I was too quiet AND too loud which is basically what we get if we pull together the two different things she said?
The answer is that her concern was that I was not "like" other kids, which has nothing to do with ACTUAL trouble I put her through. So, since I was quiet, this made me abnormal. So from now on she sees me as abnormal, and when I am loud it would be abnormal, too. One abnormality, in her mind, can't possibly make up for the other even though they are opposite. Instead, since I am supposed to be "quiet" something horrible must have happen to make me loud; even though for any other kid this kind of loud would be perfectly normal.
This, by the way, is similar to the way she treats the diet thing. Since HER body doesn't require meat, and she projected herself on me, it must be "normal" for me not to eat meat, hence she agreed to a diet that ultimately compromised my bone and muscle growth. Similarly, since I was the quiet one, my body must require being quiet, hence the moment I am loud she is more than willing to agree with meds that would make me quiet and compromise my brain development.
zena4 wrote:
And if she does as she does now, it can be that you, as a child, used her that way.
Are you trying to say that she is punishes me for what I did as a child? Because I don't think she does, since she views me as disabled and thus views my childhood behavior as something I can't help.
zena4 wrote:
But mind you! I'm not putting a fault or anything on a child, a little boy who had so much of energy in his brain and his body.
How come you are sarcastic while saying it? I mean, it is true, a little kid is not aware of the effect their behavior has on others, so why should they be punished for something they are not aware of?
zena4 wrote:
But... was your mother alone to raise you, take care of you?
Because an adult has a lot of things to do and to think as well. Plus the children.
Were you just the two of you or did you have your father too?
Because an adult has a lot of things to do and to think as well. Plus the children.
Were you just the two of you or did you have your father too?
My father was there too. Although they didn't get alone well, so thats why part of the time I spent at the appartment of my parents, and the other part of the time I spent at the appartment of my grandparents (mother's parents); during the latter period of time my mom, too, was often at the appartment of my grandparents as well, although sometimes she would go to my father's place while I am with my grandparent's.
06 Oct 2009, 7:33 am
I was not sarcastic.
When I am, I write it down.
But being so talkative and making such a fuss about everything and anything that people can answer you, you can't deny being the real son of your mother!
[and there, I don't know if I'm sarcastic or not - so you can take it as you like.]
06 Oct 2009, 7:39 am
By the way, speaking of theralene, lets take more extreme case where parents decided to arrest the growth of their profoundly ret*d daughter. Of course, what they did to her is FAR FAR worse than what was done to me, but it still has the same philosophy: if a child is disabled it is okay do further disable them. So here are some links for you about that girl:
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15517226/
and
http://www.tash.org/InTheNews/06Attenua ... rticle.pdf
06 Oct 2009, 7:40 am
zena4 wrote:
I was not sarcastic.
When I am, I write it down.
But being so talkative and making such a fuss about everything and anything that people can answer you, you can't deny being the real son of your mother!
[and there, I don't know if I'm sarcastic or not - so you can take it as you like.]
When I am, I write it down.
But being so talkative and making such a fuss about everything and anything that people can answer you, you can't deny being the real son of your mother!
[and there, I don't know if I'm sarcastic or not - so you can take it as you like.]
LOL
06 Oct 2009, 1:46 pm
Roman wrote:
Shebakoby wrote:
Perhaps the root of all this is perhaps Jennifer is not Jewish?
So why not be honest and straightout say "Jennifer is not Jewish so I don't want you dating her". The funny thing is that within this whole time she knew about Jennifer, which was now over a year, she never once mentioned anything about her not being Jewish. Instead, somewhere, somehow something was inconvenient so for some weird reason I couldn't do this or taht with Jennifer just now. And I left wonder why.
Perhaps she didn't want to be obvious that this was the reason? You never know.
Roman wrote:
My mom is not the only example of a Jew who behaves this way. Do you know that in Israel the Messianic Jews (the Jews that believe in Jesus) are under attack from regular Jews, and a lot of them get PHYSICALLY hurt. One such example is a kid opening a present box that has explosive on it. And then, of course, there are some orthodox Jews who come weekly in front of the house of Messianic Jews to chant how much they hate Jesus and oftentimes they physically beat Messianic Jews up.
Now, of course, the number of Jews that are openly violent towards Messianic Jews is far fewer than 50%. But what the rest of the Jews are guilty of is IGNORING Messianic Jews and FORGETTING to defend them. When Messianic Jews complain to police about the violence that they experience, the best response that they get is that they will "look into it" and then as the time passes, police never "gets around" to look at it, because there are too many other cases. Then, while they get no response and the violence keeps happening, they will go to the police again and again, and eventually police will tell them to "stop bothering them". Then, there was one Messianic Jew who got fed up with all the violence that he got from regular Jews FOR YEARS, and he finally decided to fight back. Guess what, the next day HE (the Messianic Jew) was arrested for violence.
This is very similar to the way my mom treats Jennifer. Before North Carolina when I was attacking Jennifer my mom (who is Jewish) refused to defend her (and Jennifer is Christian), just like Israeli police refuses to defend Messianic Jews (my attack on Jennifer was fake, and the only intention was to get my mom to defend her, which she never did no matter how hard I tried). Then when that particular Messianic Jew fought back, it was very similar to the way Jennifer fought back. And in both cases the person who fought back was punished: Messianic Jew was punished for being "violent" and Jennifer is punished for being "controlling".
Now, of course, the number of Jews that are openly violent towards Messianic Jews is far fewer than 50%. But what the rest of the Jews are guilty of is IGNORING Messianic Jews and FORGETTING to defend them. When Messianic Jews complain to police about the violence that they experience, the best response that they get is that they will "look into it" and then as the time passes, police never "gets around" to look at it, because there are too many other cases. Then, while they get no response and the violence keeps happening, they will go to the police again and again, and eventually police will tell them to "stop bothering them". Then, there was one Messianic Jew who got fed up with all the violence that he got from regular Jews FOR YEARS, and he finally decided to fight back. Guess what, the next day HE (the Messianic Jew) was arrested for violence.
This is very similar to the way my mom treats Jennifer. Before North Carolina when I was attacking Jennifer my mom (who is Jewish) refused to defend her (and Jennifer is Christian), just like Israeli police refuses to defend Messianic Jews (my attack on Jennifer was fake, and the only intention was to get my mom to defend her, which she never did no matter how hard I tried). Then when that particular Messianic Jew fought back, it was very similar to the way Jennifer fought back. And in both cases the person who fought back was punished: Messianic Jew was punished for being "violent" and Jennifer is punished for being "controlling".
Geez. But Jennifer isn't really 'controlling' is she?
Roman wrote:
The funny thing is that this is the exact treatment that the Jews are getting from antisemitic non-Jews. Do you konw that the Jews during the holocaust could have been saved if only Europe would either let Jews migrate into their contries or at least bomb railways leading to concentration camps? In fact there were proposals to do just that, but somehow the planes couldn't EXACTLY reach the railways, even though they were all around tehse locations, as long as the purpose was something other than bombing them. Why couldn't they just honestly say "we are not going to bomb railways because Jews killed Jesus Christ so they deserve exactly what they are getting"?
Idiots that say stuff like that about Jews and Jesus Christ are forgetting where in the New Testament Jesus himself said, "Father FORGIVE THEM for they know not what they do."
Antisemites make me angry. Back then the anti-jewish propaganda was so hardcore that people believed all the nonsense they were told (the stereotypical stuff, from the RIDICULOUS 'blood libel', doubly idiotic given that in the Torah the Jews were forbidden to eat blood, to the ideas about Jews and Finance) and I think it went way deeper than just "Oh they killed Jesus Christ". The morons. Jesus Christ died for our sins, and this was necessary, so why blame the descendants of the people that killed him? Without that death, we'd all still be LOST! It makes no freaking sense.
Roman wrote:
I think it is very similar to the way Europe in its campaign against Israel never once mentioned that Jews killed Jesus Christ. In fact, they never accused Israel of a single thing Israel didn't, in fact, do. Their tactic is NOT to invent something anti-Jewish, but rather ignore things that are pro-Jewish. In particular, they ignore that Palestine has attacked Israel first, and Israel is merely defending itself. So if you IGNORE that Palestine attacked Israel first, how can you possibly interpret Israeli actions in any way OTHER than terror.
Oh yeah. Oh hey, have you seen "Obsession: The Movie"? There's clips of it on Youtube, it is very informative. From it I learned that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem back in World War II collaborated with Hitler to kill Jews. He even recruited an entire brigade of Bosnian Muslims for the German army. If you ever wondered why some of the Palestinian Militants seem a lot like fascists...
Roman wrote:
Well the funny thing is that Jews are no better in this respect. My mom is one example of a Jew who mistreats non-Jews by IGNORING them, and Israeli police is another such example. This same pattern even existed in bibli cal times:
Now look at the thing in bold in the above passage: "but they had their piece". That is the Jewish way of doing things: instead of being HONEST they EVADE the question. Well, that is also the way antisemitic non-Jews treat the Jews as well, whether it be failure to bomb railways or failure to notice that Palestinians attacked Israel first.
Now, less than three years afterwards, these same Jews who "held their piece" were yelling very loudly "let him be crucified", "his blood be on us and on our children", etc. There is an interesting parallel here. Europe also "held its piece" during the holocaust. But then during Israeli Palesitinian conflict they don't hold their piece; they are very vocal against Israel. Likewise, Israeli police "held its piece" when a Messianic Jew was being attacked. But when he foguth back they no longer held their piece but hurried up and arrested him instead. Now, what happened in both instances? Well, the party taht wanted to hold its piece wasn't allowed to, so it started to FIGHT just to hold a piece. In case of Jews they really wanted to IGNORE message of Jesus. Let me stress it -- they didn't want to oppose it, they just wanted to ignore it, since they were far too concerned with not eating with their hands unwashed to even bother. But once tehy couldn't IGNORE, they became agressive in order ot do just that. In case of Europe same thing. Europe wants to IGNORE what is being done to the Jews, whether it is being done by Hitler or by Palestinians. In case of Hitler, they successfully ignored it, so they had their piece. But in case of Palestinians they weren't allowed to, since Israel, herself, started to DO SOMETHING about the very thing they were trying to "ignore", so now they have to yell and protest just so that they can hold their piece again. And finally Israeli police wanted to IGNORE what was being done to a Messianic Jew, but once they failed, they had to arrest Messianic Jew for violence.
Now, lets go back to my mom. Did my mom attack Jennifer from the very beginning? No. As you will see from this thread ( http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt108539.html ) where i described it in more detail, it started from MY trying to attack Jennifer and my mom IGNORING my attacks and FORGETTING to defend her. So she held her piece, just like Jews in Jesus' time did. But then Jennifer didn't let her hold her piece, so then she had to protest (much like Jews had to yell " his blood be upon us and upon our children" and also just like Europe has to yell "Israel is using excessive force").
Let me close with this: when I was little my mom was going to give me a medicine before I had to go to bed. I said "I don't want calcium, don't you see that since it tastes so bad my body tells me that it doesn't need it". My mom's responds in a very sweet voice: "Tak eto zhe ne kaltsij, eto zh theralene" (which means, in Russian, "this is not calcium, it is theralene"). Now, theralene, which was given to me to fight allergy, was also a sedative (see here http://www.flexyx.com/T/Theralene.html# ). The way sedatives work is by RUINING BRAIN CELLS. So why doesn't my body says there is anything wrong with theralene? Because it is coated!! ! So, my mom doesn't bother refute the "trust your own body" theory; she simply LIES to me that my body doesn't have anything against the pill, by coating it! Well, that is the way she treats the whole Jennifer business. And that is also the way Jews treat non-Jews in general, and similarly it is the way antisemites treat Jews as well. Jews and non Jews fight each other with threralene, and they give each other theralebe ti fught theralene! Orthodox Jews gave theralene to a Messianic Jew in Israel, and so does Europe gives theralene to regular Jews (whether in Israel or during World War 2). My mom gives theralene to Jennifer. In all cases theralene is coated, and it is always about "holding one's piece", but once the targetted party refuses to take terralene, thats when agression begines. The only difference is that only some portion of non-Jews are interested to fight Jews with theralene, while for Jews the desire to give theralene to non-Jews is very mainstream.
Quote:
Mark 3
1And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
2And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
3And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
4And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
5And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
1And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
2And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
3And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
4And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
5And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
Now look at the thing in bold in the above passage: "but they had their piece". That is the Jewish way of doing things: instead of being HONEST they EVADE the question. Well, that is also the way antisemitic non-Jews treat the Jews as well, whether it be failure to bomb railways or failure to notice that Palestinians attacked Israel first.
Now, less than three years afterwards, these same Jews who "held their piece" were yelling very loudly "let him be crucified", "his blood be on us and on our children", etc. There is an interesting parallel here. Europe also "held its piece" during the holocaust. But then during Israeli Palesitinian conflict they don't hold their piece; they are very vocal against Israel. Likewise, Israeli police "held its piece" when a Messianic Jew was being attacked. But when he foguth back they no longer held their piece but hurried up and arrested him instead. Now, what happened in both instances? Well, the party taht wanted to hold its piece wasn't allowed to, so it started to FIGHT just to hold a piece. In case of Jews they really wanted to IGNORE message of Jesus. Let me stress it -- they didn't want to oppose it, they just wanted to ignore it, since they were far too concerned with not eating with their hands unwashed to even bother. But once tehy couldn't IGNORE, they became agressive in order ot do just that. In case of Europe same thing. Europe wants to IGNORE what is being done to the Jews, whether it is being done by Hitler or by Palestinians. In case of Hitler, they successfully ignored it, so they had their piece. But in case of Palestinians they weren't allowed to, since Israel, herself, started to DO SOMETHING about the very thing they were trying to "ignore", so now they have to yell and protest just so that they can hold their piece again. And finally Israeli police wanted to IGNORE what was being done to a Messianic Jew, but once they failed, they had to arrest Messianic Jew for violence.
Now, lets go back to my mom. Did my mom attack Jennifer from the very beginning? No. As you will see from this thread ( http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt108539.html ) where i described it in more detail, it started from MY trying to attack Jennifer and my mom IGNORING my attacks and FORGETTING to defend her. So she held her piece, just like Jews in Jesus' time did. But then Jennifer didn't let her hold her piece, so then she had to protest (much like Jews had to yell " his blood be upon us and upon our children" and also just like Europe has to yell "Israel is using excessive force").
Let me close with this: when I was little my mom was going to give me a medicine before I had to go to bed. I said "I don't want calcium, don't you see that since it tastes so bad my body tells me that it doesn't need it". My mom's responds in a very sweet voice: "Tak eto zhe ne kaltsij, eto zh theralene" (which means, in Russian, "this is not calcium, it is theralene"). Now, theralene, which was given to me to fight allergy, was also a sedative (see here http://www.flexyx.com/T/Theralene.html# ). The way sedatives work is by RUINING BRAIN CELLS. So why doesn't my body says there is anything wrong with theralene? Because it is coated!! ! So, my mom doesn't bother refute the "trust your own body" theory; she simply LIES to me that my body doesn't have anything against the pill, by coating it! Well, that is the way she treats the whole Jennifer business. And that is also the way Jews treat non-Jews in general, and similarly it is the way antisemites treat Jews as well. Jews and non Jews fight each other with threralene, and they give each other theralebe ti fught theralene! Orthodox Jews gave theralene to a Messianic Jew in Israel, and so does Europe gives theralene to regular Jews (whether in Israel or during World War 2). My mom gives theralene to Jennifer. In all cases theralene is coated, and it is always about "holding one's piece", but once the targetted party refuses to take terralene, thats when agression begines. The only difference is that only some portion of non-Jews are interested to fight Jews with theralene, while for Jews the desire to give theralene to non-Jews is very mainstream.
Oh yeah, I can see how this works.
