Wait it out, or move on?

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The way to deal with it is to tell her directly "I know that you don't want to hurt my feelings, but I don't mind having my feelings hurt; I would rather know the truth".



Thats what I don't understand. Sometimes I feel that perhaps it is because usually such communications don't happen because they get interrupted with one or both parties trying to be polite.

Saying that doesn't make it any easier to hurt someones feelings.

Roman, you're welcome to your opinion - however, I disagree. You see contracts, obligations, rules and other such things where I do not and have never experienced them. To me, that suggests that perhaps our individual preconceptions affect our relationships and interactions with others - Schroedinger's Cat, demonstrated in real life? And if I consider someone important enough to have romantic interest in them, then by all means I would think that would correlate to being a worthy and valued friend. Just because there is no romantic involvement at that time, or at all, does not change that for me. As for one's self-esteem, it is just that - one's sense of self worth and importance and NOT that of her or any other external influence. It is up to him to choose how he sees himself instead of attempting to interpret the perceptions of others - that's my perspective. Just because he remains open to the possibility in the future does not mean remaining exclusively attached to that remote chance; to be rather crude out of necessity, it is the difference between a muck hand in Hold Em poker and one that has multiple ways in which to improve and win... the more chances one has or "accumulates" for lack of a better term, the better chance one has in the long run. As for talking about himself... no, this is not something I agree with. First, actions do speak louder than words - all of his protests are in vain if it is not demonstrable and in memory. Secondly, you are suggesting an argument of opinions... which, as you and I are demonstrating, as does most of PPR, that such a battle is a losing proposition and will more often risk offense than prove successful. Third: People, regardless of condition, tend to trust their experience; from what I have observed and read, instinct proves a modifier that can overwhelm one's prior encounters, but it is not requisite. By taking some abstract hypothetical obstacle and making it more concrete makes it harder to overcome those preconceptions because the process of solidification is an experience unto itself. And given your own difficulties with relationships that you have shared at length here, I have to personally take a moment to consider the validity or likelihood of success for the strategies you propose. So we agree to disagree, and allow the OP to make up his own mind - while I appreciate you efforts, your arguments have not swayed me and I do not believe you will be successful in the future. Thank you, though.


M.

One thing I have to point out is that they know each other for two months. So, if during these two months he wasn't pushy on anything, he can "afford" to be pushy now in this one question.

Your strategy for asking for feedback only works if the person you are requesting that feedback from uses the same social modeling and thought process that you do; in this instance, you are working against their natural process and creating problems at a systemic level that will generally lead to failure. Again, you seem to think that romance is like religion in some regards - that if you preach and argue well enough, that people will convert and 'see the light'... which is not how people work, as I've discovered. Social interaction is not music composition or computer programming; there are no strict rules or absolutes, no dictates of form or design that -must- be followed. People do not communicate on demand - this is something that leads to issues between my wife and I because we work on different schedules/processes in that regard.


M.

One thing I just realized is that we try to argue over how she will react and whether she will find it frustrating or not. But one thing we are all missing is tht during the conversation he will simply SEE how she reacts. Thus, if he sees signs of frustration, he can always end the conversation. BUT if it turns out that she is okay discussiong it, then he has a perfect apportunity to try and change her mind. Yes it might not work, but at least he would be able to say he tried.

But one thing is certain: the only way to see how she reacts is to at least start that discussion. So he should. Given that he wasn't pushy on things during these two months, I am pretty sure she will be understanding duirng the beginning of the conversation. What we are really talking about is whether or not her patience will run out if he percists. It might, but there would be warning signs long before it happens, and if he values the friendship he will end the conversation when he sees these signs.

I am not talking about being pushy here. That is something we all do on a daily basis. Suppose we are talking to a friend, and they are in a hurry to go somewhere else. How do we end the conversation? Sometimes they say they have to go. But other tmes we simply see the signs that they are not really into talking to us (like they looking away and such). The fact that we "waited until" they looked away is not rude.

What strikes me though is that when it comes to things as important as finding a partner, people are "too shy" to do what they would have been doing in all other things. It is quite normal to have an open discussion with a wife of what are you going to buy in the store and why. I wish ppl could have similar discussion about dating. It is rather ironic: what you buy in the store only lasts few days, while dating lasts for much longer time. Yet, people are fine discussing the few days while they are leaving several months up to the undiscussed instincts of the other person.

I agree that a woman is not just an object to be used in romance. So, if she has something to offer in terms of love, she also has something to offer as a friend, too. And, by this logic, something is better than nothing.

But the issue here is not merely lack of romance. Rather, the issue is the presence of some negative perceptions of him. So it is not really "friendship + 0 = friendship = good". Rather, it is "friendship + negative opinion = who knows".

Now I know that sometimes people are just not attracted to someone without any negative opinion attached to it. For example, you might be attracted to blonds, and it doesn't mean you think that blonds are "better" than women with darker hair. But again, that is something he should discuss with her. If she tells him she doesn't like him because he is blond, then fine, he doesn't have to take it personally, and he can accept her friendship, and everyone is happy. But unless they have that discussion, he has no way of knowing that she doesn't think something else that is negative of him, which is more serious.

Now, I realize that since she is willing to be a good friend of his, at least some important aspects of her opinion of him must be high. But that doesn't necesserely imply that he won't find offensive some of the assumptions she is making about him. For example, back in 2005 I had a very good friend Anne. She really liked me as a friend. But she didn't want to be in a relationship with me because my mom is shelterning me so she assumed I needed sheltering and this was something she "can't handle".

Now, I found this opinion to be quite offensive. One thing I hate about my mom is that she shelters me, and here was Anne assuming that this is what I need. Now, did Anne have low overall opinion of me? No, since apparently I was one of only two closest friends she had. But did I find her assumption offensive? Oh yah! Unfortunately back then I made the same mistake I am now accusing other men of making: I didn't argue with her, and instead I became very passive agressive. I now wish I could just argue with her and challenge that assumption. After all in the very email that she sent me she told me she would "love to discuss it more", yet I didn't.

Back to self esteem topic: interaction with Anne on daily basis was really damaging to me because of that assumption of hers. I don't want the OP to go through the same experience.



Self esteem is made out of several factors. I know love is not the only one. For me, for example, my career is by far the most important, while romantic relationships are only second to that. Obviously, I don't know him, but I do hope he, also, has his own goals and dreams that are independent of other humans.

However, this doesn't change the fact that the relationship with others is an important contributor to self esteem. So while he might have other sources of high self esteem, I really don't think it is healthy to interact on a weekly basis with someone who has low opinion of him and pretend to accept that.

As I said, may be she doesn't have low opinion. May be she just doesn't like that he is blond. But that is something he should find out after talking to her directly. He can't just hope that she doesn't have low opinion when in reality he can't read her mind so she might very well have one.



First of all, why is that chance "remote"? It is remote because of the assumptions of a girl. So why not see if they can be changed?

Secondly, I never said "exclusively attached". During the first few dates people are not officially boyfriend/girlfriend yet, so they can date more than one person. Then, after they date a few times they decide to become exclusive, and that is when they are boyfriend/girlfriend. But until that point they are still a candidates for boyfriend/girlfried. Both sides know that that is why they are seeing each other. So, likewise, I would like him to be a candidate for a boyfriend. This means that yes, other doors are still open, but the chances of getting through this door are not remote.

The other thing I should point out is that he has described this woman to be a woman of his dreams. So obviously he would not be completely happy with other options. I, for one, after having failed with Anne, had three other relationships: Andrea, Anita, and Jennifer. In every single one of those, I was regretting that I was not with Anne. I don't want him to have similar regrets.



I agree that actions speak louder than words. But then he can openly ask her "if I will change and show it on actions, will I be able to be with you then?" If she says "yes", and means it, then they can agree that the game is not over and then he can start working hard without it being damaging to his self esteem. But if she says "no", then it is very offensive because it is like she assumes he can't change no matter how hard he tries. And in this case I imagine their further interaction might be quite damaging to him.



Well, then at least he would be able to say to himself that he tried.



I am sorry, but that just doesn't match my experience. From what I found, once people's "mind is made up", they are very unlikely to change it. And the whole phenomenon of "mind" being "made up" is very often based on the instinct and not on anything logical. For example, my mom's mind is made up that I am a little kid. No she didn't articulate any of her reasons why. In fact when I try to argue with her about it she denies it altogether. Yet her mind is still made up.



Even if you were right, one thing you are missing is that she might well be talking about all of this, and thus "solidifying it" with her girlfriends. She might be simply too polite to tell it to him. So if only she did, he would try and stop that process.



In my case I made a mistake of being too pushy for too long. This is not the mistake he made. He behaved just fine for the two months they know each other, so he can afford to be pushy just once.

It might be a bit off topic, but I read that when a man and a woman is already in a serious relationship, it is often a woman that wants more discussion and she complains that the man doesn't have enough patience for it. In my case, of course, it has always been the opposite. But if I was in a shoes of these other men who haven't weared out the woman's patience, yet, I sure would be able to take full advantage of it. Thats why i would like to suggest to these other man that they do what their women offer, which is the kind of offer I don't get but really wish I did.

Of course, the above paragraph speaks of people who are, already, in a serious relationship. In the situations when they are just friends and in fact the woman is not interested, this is less appropriate. But still, even then, when I read the accounts of men who were rejected I often find that women did offer the discussion to the men, but the men plainly missed these offers. I don't want this to happen to OP.

Are you saying that you didn't like them or that they didn't like you? What I was talking about only applies to the latter scenario, especially where the woman actually said "let's just be friends", which is what happened with your current girl. That is when it is very difficult to change it.

Now, if you say that that is what happened with these female friends, and later on they became your girlfriends anyway, you must have been very lucky. But still, I am almost positive that until they became your girlfriends, their mindset was that it will never happen; then later they changed their mind. Now, do you really want to interact with someone whose mindset is that you will never change and nothing will ever happen? Sure, her mindset can change, but until it changes that interaction will be quite painful.



Thats possible, but you don't know it unless you ask. That is why you should ask.

The other thing is that if you do ask, and she tells you she doesn't have them, that might simply be a white lie as she tries to be polite. So you have to probe further by asking her that if she really doesn't have that opinion, what is it about you she finds undesireable?



That is one thing women say when they don't want to hurt man's feelings. Again, this is often a white lie. In fact, it often happens that a woman would tell a man she is not ready, and then a week later when a better man comes along she all of a sudden becomes ready.

On the other hand it is true that sometimes women are not ready for real. In order to distinguish one situation fron the other, you have to have a discussion where both sides put all cards on a table. And that is what I am trying to encourage you to do.

As I have illustrated in my analysis of the other person's post ( http://www.theattractionforums.com/fiel ... -ljbf.html ) when a woman tries to be polite in order not to hurt man's feelings, she will more than likely contradict herself in the process. So, the way to get her to be honest is to point out these self-contradictions of hers. Let me quote the relevent part of my earlier response where I have illustrated the self contradictions in that particular example:

QFT

Thanks again, everyone, for all the feedback and suggestions. You guys are awesome.

Hrm... true. Nice guys finish last. She's an NT so multiple parallel approaches may work.

Won't work she already doesn't like him like that she said so herself even if he fits all of them if he points it out to her she'll be bothered by it. It doesn't matter how manner things in her list he fits she already told him no after consulting her "list" she won't just suddenly realize she was mistaken b/c he points it out... She isn't interested in him maybe someday long off from now but not now she just isn't accept it and be a friend. Really you don't want to push her it'll end up making you both upset and you won't be friends. Accept what she said with her own words and be a friend, if she were interested she wouldn't have said that she wasn't simple as that. No mind games no big secret no rules just plain and open be glad she was clear enough when she said it most aren't, don't let yourself get obsessed with her just look at other girls, talk to other girls, and move on it's the best course of action you can take right now.

Since mak mentioned Schroedinger, and considering that Roman is a physicist, I thought maybe I'd put the situation posed by TheMinnesotaIceman in a slightly different way.

Roman, you know how in quantum mechanics you can't experimentally observe certain quantum particles directly? Physicists examine vapor trails, or have the unknown particle collide with another, and infer the presence of the predicted particle based on the collision result. The mere ability to observe the particle changes it. Romantic feelings are rather similar in that respect: you cannot directly ask the question of "What do I need to do to be your boyfriend?" without serious risk that the answer to that same question will be changed as a direct consequence of asking it. Why is this the case? Because once you start thinking and analyzing feelings, the feelings then no longer come naturally, which is required for a romantic relationship to develop. In contrast to rational thought processes, which are active and deliberate, feelings are passive responses to an existing condition. Even if TheMinnesotaIceman were to use rational thought processes to ask his friend directly, she could always subsequently suspect that TheMinnesotaIceman was simply doing things to try to get her to like him, and not because those things were part of him independent of her role in his life. That kind of suspicion casts doubt on the very basis of her feelings towards him, which would not help either of them platonically or romantically in the long run. This is why there's so much indirect communication when it comes to romance and stuff: direct communication in itself changes the outcome to something unnatural.

That's not to say that people can never be direct with their romantic feelings towards each other, but it's vastly more productive if both people already know, through indirect communication, that the feelings are already present and mutual. Since that isn't the case with TheMinnesotaIceman and his friend, I would definitely go with people's suggestions that he not bring the question up. If really need be, ask a mutual friend to try to get the relevant info. Otherwise, I'd just move on.

Stinkypuppy, you're my hero for the day - that was well done.


M.

I agree. But notice that in quantum physics you don't know whether the changed answer will be larger or smaller; all you know is that it will be different. So, if she were to say "I love you like crazy and we should date", then getting a different answer would not be a good idea so then it is best to just go with a flow. But that is not the case now. Thus, since he doesn't like a current answer then the possibility for it to change might give him some hope.



Let me bring up the last relationship I had, with Jennifer. It lasted for two years. It started off by my wanting to analyze the potential of us to date. Just like you described, it became very logical and thus it lacked the kind of passion that you are talking about. Nevertheless, slowly but surely it developed, and once it did it was quite firm. It took a year for my mom's disapproval to ruin it! Back in the good times Jennifer even said that one of the main things she likes about me is that I can sit down and reason through things, logically.

By the way, Jennifer later told me that during the first few weeks she only liked me as a friend, but she avoided telling me that because she knew that I would freak out and ruin everything if she did. Nevertheless, we ended up in a serious relationship later on and she did end up falling in love with me. So, that was a perfect example where logical discussions had, in fact, changed her mind.

Going back to what you are saying, yes analyzing would kill the passion. But it will also kill the undesired assumptions, too. Note that both passion and prejudice flurish when things "flow naturally". So, at worst, overanalyzing would kill prejudice at the expense of passion. In his case, that "cost" is not too high since there is no passion to begin with.



And I never said this should be a secret. In fact I suggest he openly tells her that this is exactly what he is going to do. As long as he is open about it, whatever it is, no one can accuse him of being dishonest, and no trust is lost. In fact, that is what I told Jennifer at the beginning of a relationship. Her response to this was that it is one of the things that she likes about me: that I am so willing "to change".

In my case, however, the relationship later went downhill because Jennifer took the idea of my wantingn to change a bit too seriously and actually started pushing me to do some of the changes I told her I would do. This eventually lead me to resent her, because some of these changes involved me having to do things other than physics (such as going with her to a dance class) right in the middle of my having some profound physics idea going. But I still maintain that if OP chooses to be honest with himself and only promise to make the changes that he won't be resenting on a long run, this might work.

I guess there were probably other cases similar to mine, and that is probably why girls other than Jennifer often told me that they won't accept any "changes" I propose to make because these would be changes for them and not changes for myself. To that, I usually respond by saying that I know that if I make changes A, B, and C, it would actually make me feel healthier, so I am doing it for me, and not just for them. In a lot of cases it is the plain truth. For example, if a girl rejects me on a basis that I don't have friends, I know that I would like to have more friends for me and not just for her. I just don't know how. That is 100% true, and that is what I tell girls. Of course his situation might be different, but still the argument that some of the changes she desires are really for him and not just for her might apply.



But he doens't have a romance (yet). Thus, he has nothing to ruin. Of course, passionate romance is better than the kind I had with Jennifer. But still what I had with Jennifer is better than just friends. So since right now he has the worst of the three options, he can at least try to turn it into second worst (which, really, is a second best seeing that me and Jennifer ended up in a serious relationship).



Asking mutual friend is not a good idea. What if he doesn't agree with what he hears? He won't be able to ask mutual friend to tell the girl that she is wrong, because if he does that, and the mutual friend follows through, then trust will be lost. No one likes to find out that there is a talk behind their back.

On the other hand, if he talks directly to the girl, he has nothing to lose since romance is not there to begin with. As far as losing friendship, he can easilly avoid it by manitoring her facial expression and ending the discussion when he sees the signs of frustration.