Making a girl work for your affection

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I like the way you did that:)

Yes, I agree. It annoys me when women don't realise that men have feelings too. Some women seem to think that they need to be overly assertive in an aggresive kind of way (that they don't realise is hurtful) just to prove that they are not downtrodden women. these women take feminism too far and twist it round to view men as inferior people that should be disparaged. This doesn't work either. Both sexes need to respect each other as people with feelings.

Ah- but being an assertive woman gets taken out of context and women will be judged for it more than men. They just want to get laid. They are sluts.

Anyone who has been discriminated against should have some understanding of what women go through every day. I can't walk into a gas station or a grocery store without being looked up and down and judged like I am there to visually entertain men. It gets old- very quickly. It is almost creepy. If I am with my kids, I get comments about being a MILF or somethings that are more degrading. Consider this: 1 in 2.5 women have been sexually abused. This dramatically affects how women interact with and react to men. We don't necessarily feel comfortable and trusting-- no idea who we can trust. It isn't about feminism, its about survival.

Also, women "making a move" can appear very differently than a man "making a move." Women tend to be casual about showing interest. Men (at least from what I can see) expect a much more formal "move." We can be much more subtle about showing interest. We are more cautious and want to see the same level of interest shown back. FEAR is a really big thing in a lot of women's lives. Not just dating-- but with the way they are treated by men on a daily basis. It isn't feminism-- its REAL. It happens. All the time.

Excellent point. This is the sort of thing I am trying to get accross to the men here who probably don't realise that this is how many women feel. Thank you.

The fear aspect is a BIG thing for me. Fear is ever present when I was single. I am so glad I have a long term relationship. I hate being harassed. Hate it. And if you are wondering, I am in the 1 in 2.5 (I heard it was one in four though), and I would use the term sexually assualted rather than sexually abused. One guy asked me why women never seemed to smile when walking in public, I had to explain to him that if I smiled, a guy may misinterprate it and may start following me, which can lead to who knows what. Women have to put up barriers. I have been harassed so many times I have lost count. I also had to explain there has been a couple of times when I was walking around that guys have tried to run me over with thier cars while harassing me. I am on edge when single. You are right about the leering, its creepy as hell. I don't even want to go into how important cabs are for women. There is without question a sense of vulnerability, a sense of fear. Yes, I have known women who did not have to worry about this. Some of my more butch lesbian friends, its not as much of an issue, but I could not appear to be butch if I tried.

Guys need to face fact, women put up barriers, and you need to respect why those barriers are there, because they are there for a reason. There is a general lack of trust already there, and the truth is it is not a "game", good guys know this (as supposed to "nice guys"), that trust has to be earned before anything else.

So rejection is a very complex matter. Its hard for guys to understand these issues because it is a part of male priveledge. As someone noted this is not a feminist concept, this is just reality. If you are being rejected she is probably working out her own issues, and more than likely, you probably did or said something to set off a red flag in her mind. And with my experiences with dating, sometimes there is just incompatibility, but many times guys will cross a barrier and breach my trust. Once I cannot trust a guy, the relationship has no chance.

I apologize. The 1 in 2.5 women statistic came from women either physically and/or sexually assaulted (that word is probably more accurate). So almost half of all women have been abused/assaulted in their lifetime. Staggering.

Some women keep wondering why some men (such as myself) don't make moves at all. It's precisely because of this. Unless I have an unequivocal "yes", I have to assume that the answer is "no", for precisely this very reason. I can't read all that subtle BS that NT's use in everyday conversation, so I don't know how to deal with such situations. I'm actually a bit grateful on the inside when a woman rejects me with a simple "no" or "not interested", because then at least it's in terms that make sense to me.

Women often return to their abusive boyfriends. The only thing that seems consistently to put them off are men who are boring, who can't get it up or who are, in a word, losers. Those are cardinal sins which will consign a man to making love to his hand (up to four times a day back when my libido was at its peak!)

But that's just it-- a lot of women don't *WANT* you to make "a move." Show interest in the woman-- in who she is and not what she looks like. Casual conversation and hanging out is a great way to get to know someone, not have to make any "move," and become comfortable wtih each other. Asking someone to hang out won't be taken wrong (unless someone is really messed up-- and in that case, move on).

Yes, women do this. Society makes people believe that women should be treated like that. Some women have never seen anything but abuse, and think they don't have a choice. And I can't imagine anyone wants to be with someone they consider boring, unwilling to have sex, or losers. Male or female, nobody (or practically nobody) would look at a potential mate with those qualities. Those qualities are all in the eye of the beholder, however. Boring to one, is safe and wonderful to another.

That's what I tend to do, and I make good friends with most of the women I meet, but none of them are interested in me for anything more than that, which is why I keep wondering if it's even possible for a woman to be attracted to me...

Bingo, there is alot of subjectivity involved. If a guy is the outdoorsy and always an adventure type, it would be to much for me. Another illusion is guys tend to generalize women way to much, especially on this board. Its a really bad practice.

By the way, I am pretty outright about what my issues are to a guy. I am not subtle about personal issues and what I would consider a breach of trust. The problem is many guys DO NOT LISTEN. Ugh. Thankfully I have a boyfriend who does, but a big reason I am with him is because he does listen.

Definitely possible. I had a friend growing up who was always "the friend" to women. No one wanted to date him. I think he dated 2 girls until he was about 30. He is now married with a son. Some guys DO fall into the category of being a good friend. But somewhere out there, there is a woman who finds that quality attractive. They probably are harder to find, but none the less, those women are out there.

It's no different than women trying to find the nice guy- who isn't creepy and who isn't just looking to get laid and hang out with their buddies. They are rare, but they are out there.

Strange. I've encountered many women that are deflated if I didn't make a move within the initial half-hour of meeting them, and it happens to me all the time because I'm terrible at breaking the ice (though at least I try).

Casual conversation is meant to keep people at a comfortable distance. If I approach someone with casual conversation I'm almost always written off as vanilla and boring, and in the same night the same person is flirting with the guy who mentioned how awesome their cleavage or thighs look. Whatever works, I guess.

I think it's counterproductive to make claims about "what women want" when in reality, you don't want anything to do with being approached. Easily just as counterproductive as the male whining you're tired of reading about on these boards.

Women are much more complex than you give them credit for. Some women (especially out at clubs) are looking to use men for drinks and free stuff. That means, they are going to look to the guy who makes stupid remarks about their bodies-- because men like that are easy to manipulate. You flirt, they buy. I don't agree with it-- but its pretty common, and almost expected, in clubs.

It also may not be the casual conversation that turns them off-- they may just be looking for something different. And yes, casual conversation MAY appear to keep people at a distance-- but how close do you think people want to be the first time they meet you? If you are compatible, the conversation goes deeper into other conversation.

I am not saying that all women want anything. What I can tell you is that women are complex. When I was single I LOVED being approached-- but not by the guy who started down my shirt or felt a need to grab my ass. I have had guys pass me notes across the bar asking me to call them-- while they are sitting with their WIFE!! ! The guys I did date were the ones I could talk to and enjoy my time with.

I never mentioned clubs at all, as I can't stand the desperate, competitive vibe they all seem to emanate. So you go to clubs and expect not to be harassed? Gee women are complex.

(edit) I'm sorry if this comment comes off with more snark than I intended. It wasn't meant as a put-down. I just meant to point out that clubs aren't ideal as conversation hubs compared to, say, bookstores or parks (which is where I generally try to converse with people). If this came off as rude, I apologize.

(edit again) And now I see that perhaps my lack of a filter is why I have trouble breaking the ice.

Last edited by WoundedDog on 15 Mar 2010, 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LMAO. When you mentioned something about later that night a woman talking to the guy making remarks about her cleavage and thighs, I assumed club. Guess I still like to believe that men act like a**holes more often at clubs than they do elsewhere.

No, I don't go to clubs. I have most certainly gone to a bar to watch a football game, play darts, and video bowling. But YES I think women should be able to go to a club and not expect to be harassed. And THAT, my friends, is the type of thinking that allows society to look the other way when women are abused and raped. YES, women should be able to go ANYWHERE and expect not to be harassed. Human decency should not be checked at a club door like a jacket.