Ode to Nice Guys

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Laerenj92286 was correct about the quality of writting because as a poem this thing would belong in the trash heap.

On the other hand, I don't think that what we are discussing is poetry, it is sociology. The majority of women who I have talked to think most guys that they have dated were creeps, and that is consistent with a suggestion that most of the non-creeps cannot get dates. Based on long hours listening to people describe their past life dating the following would seem to account for this anomaly.

1. Creeps (people who women consider undesirable on hind sight) are skillfull at looking like exactly what women want on first sight. They obviously do not maintain this appearance because when they try to get what they really want, they have drop the act (they would never get what they wanted by being nice).

2. Creeps improve their skill because they date a large number of women. They are dumped repeatedly and are always moving on. Really nice guys may get married relatively quickly and never develop this kind of skill.

3. Creeps are focused on getting what they want. They plan and plot. Nice guys have less focused motives and hence do not look as good.

Bottom line:

Nice guys (people actually considered desirable by women) do not look as nice on a first date as creeps (people for whom dating is worse than eating a dirty sock, at least when women think about it later) look better at first glance.

We aspies often do very badly on first look. With women who have a history of dating creeps suspicious is usually higher no lower ("If you don;t have perfect social skills, you might be a crrep under it all"). It is not like, as some people seem to think, women respond to creepyness. It is just that creeps are so good at hiding their nature that women actually think they are nice.

Where do I get this? Well, my wife has described her entire dating experience before she met me. My mother in law has described a life of being succered by creeps. Then there are numerous femal coworkers. Most of them told very similair stories.

Not many women conclude that they just were bad judges of character when they picked dates, but I would like to know how they picked so many bad characters if their judgement was reliable.

Rabbit

Too true, but at the same time I think people are too trained to think that what you were trained to see as civil behavior will get you ahead everywhere. If anything 'nice guys' are reacting to things too literally and not stopping to think why a girl who they like and who likes them would be completely rude, make completely irrational tests, when if you really think about it you realize its obviously a quick litmus test of character. Yeah, sometimes you can tell pretty quick if a girl's holding some skeletons or shady intentions just by how she articulates that game but that's another story. The other part of that - attraction is an emotion, like other emotions it has triggers, and unfortunately for our race its not triggered by kindness as much as it is sexual frustration, being teased, etc. - that tends not to be favorable for the people who don't have the attitude for it.

Why would the type of writing it is matter?

I disagree with the rants but agree with Rabbit on points she made regarding this thread, why can't I find a reasonable topic of interest similar to this one here?

Once you get past the whole Molly Ringwold movie part of it, it sounded to me like it's about a guy who is in love with a girl who he is friends with and she doesn't see him like that but he is there all the time for her just hoping that one day she might. That situation is very common and happens in the NT world too. If it's supposed to be about a guy who has numerous girl friends who do him like that then maybe he should ask one of the girls to explain to him what about him makes him not see to be "dating material" rather than just "friend material". Maybe the girl genuinely likes him but just isn't attracted to him romantically. Maybe at the end of the movie she will see that she loves him because when the jerk she's dating dumps her for Phoebe Cates she will fall for him and they can slow dance under a disco ball and he won't always be trying to make her act like a cheerleader.

My point is, that situation is so very common that it's even the plot line to lots of movies. I'm sure that there are lots of girls who get a kick out of treating an awkward guy like crap and keep him around for the "emergency escort" or for an ego boost but I also think that there are just as many who like the guy as a friend but are sincerely not attracted to him.

So, should girls only be friends with guys that they would consider dating? Should they just not be friends with guys at all? If they are friends, should she never monopolize his time for an hour while complaining about the guy she does like? How should this be resolved? What would, in a perfect world, fix this situation?

It happens to girls too. I could tell you all about a guy I was in love with who was my friend. It was in 1983/1984. I did everything in the world for that guy. He had his own place and I would clean it, do his laundry, cook for him, shop for him, etc. He knew how I felt and even once told me that he just likes me as a friend. I was so in love with him that I hung around anyway. I even tried the "Lets just have sex with no strings attached" thing but he was not interested at all. And no, he was not one of those jock, alpha, Mr Popularity, Hottie McHottentot. He had a lot of trouble getting a gf because he was not what most girls thought of as attractive and he did not have interests that most girls liked, but we shared a lot of interests. I was hurt a lot during that time, but it was my own doing because I knew he didn't like me like that but I kept on hoping and hanging around wishing.

This article pissed me off. Women are NOT all manipulative b*****s! God I want to punch whoever wrote this! Ever think maybe, just MAYBE, THE GIRL ISN'T ATTRACTED TO YOU (whether it be looks or whatever else) or genuinely DOESN'T LIKE YOU THAT WAY? Just because you're "nice" to a girl doesn't mean you're entitled to sex or anything else! It means you're FRIENDS.

Wanna bet those guys you're condemning are not all alike and some of them may be like you?

If you even said one word against girls who rejected you and wondered why despite you being nice, at least one girl who heard/read you would lump you in the same category as them.

It's not so black or white.

Women don't feel attraction towards niceness in men. Men don't understand this concept and they complain about how women only want those who aren't nice. Women get upset in response and condemn you as "Nice Guy" even though you may truly be a decent guy and the woman may truly be a decent woman. But with misunderstandings, condemnations tend to occur spontaneously and neither side wants to understand exactly what the other side is really thinking or going through. Instead, they attribute motives which are not necessarily true (or at least not completely) and aim to hurt them with condemning words.

Written in 2006 back before Nice Guys were all potential rapists/stalkers/serial killers.

People are not honour-bound to fall madly in love with anyone who shows them kindness. So s/he's not attracted to you, s/he is not obligated to do so no matter how much you try. Getting frustrated with someone because they don't want to be with you romantically isn't fair. Do you know how guilty I feel sometimes because guys who are nice to me want to mean something more to me but I don't have those feelings for them? I just KNOW somewhere in there they're upset and angry at me for not "repaying" their "niceness" with a relationship. But isn't being with someone just because they're nice to you the same as just being with someone just because they look "hot"? Why would you want to force someone to be in a relationship with you when you know they don't have feelings for you?

Sorry, off-topic but this subject always really upsets me. I shouldn't have to feel bad because I don't want to be in a relationship with someone.

And that's why clear messages need to be sent from both sides. Women should be held accountable as well. If you don't love someone, you owe it to yourself to make it clear to him that you don't and to make a sacrifice which is to let go of the friendship even if you personally value the friendship. To expect someone who loves you, but whom you don't love, to continue interacting with you in any intimate manner (even as friends), and allow it to dwell through explicit or subtle means, is overly selfish in my opinion.

Then what do you do when they insist on being "friends" still in the hope of making you change your mind? Men and women do this, it's not just one gender that has this issue.

It's a horrible feeling when you find out that someone stayed "friends" with you purely to try and change your mind, not because they really wanted to be friends. And unfortunately even with all the work I've done with CBT I don't have the skills to tell the difference.

If they insist on being friends, then it's more likely that they still have this hope of eventually being in a relationship with you. This indicates a clear message isn't being sent (from either your side or theirs), whether verbally or through one's actions. If it were up to me, I'd make it clear that I don't want a friendship with someone who loves me but whom I don't love. Then again, I've never valued such friendships, regardless of which side I'm on.

By the way, friendship comes in all sorts, not just one type. The friendship a man usually has with a girl he is attracted to isn't the same type of friendship he has with his male buddies or girls he couldn't see himself attracted to. The interactions and dynamics are often very different and there usually isn't any form of intimacy between buddies beyond the casual brofist or hi fives or less than one second brohug. And they don't go on borderline or outright romantic dates as well.

If you want a platonic friendship, try girls or gay guys for a change.

Still makes me wish for a random acid splash to hit my face or something . I hate rejecting people. No matter what, you always feel like the nastiest person in the world.

All I did was state a tip, which you are completely free to disregard. I did not intend to allow you an excuse to make yourself feel victimized.

The fact is, by trying to victimize themselves and demonizing the women who geniunely want to do the right thing, they end up victimizing us instead and just perpetuating a nasty cycle where both sides don't trust each other.

What ever happened to "no means no"? Sure, I can accept that people are hurt by rejection, but hurting other people because of said rejection? What the hell is the point?

Ive had penty of platonic friendships with guys. Our "outings" were usually things we both enjoyed. A movie, or a meal at some place, or Turkey Creek, or the Quarter. I've only been in love with one guy who I was friends with and I realy like liked one for a a while but got over that fast. I only know of one where the guy liked me and he killed himself. So for the most part, I've had nothing but positive things to say about being friends with guys.