NT female seeks input on AS male's fears

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This is so alien to me. The idea of just dropping everything and following some goal seems utterly terrifying. Every change in plan, every new direction, every unexpected event leads to some level of anxiety in me. I like time to consider and analyze any situation I will get into. I guess the reason for this is that I am terrible at thinking on my feet in any new situation and my response has been to consider the possible scenarios that I might encounter and work out the solutions ahead of time. I don't always get it right, but I am more likely to be successful if I prepare to some extent.

I hadn't really thought of it the way you describe... do you really just go with whatever occurs to you in the moment? Does it NOT make you anxious when you are thrown into a new situation?

Wow, sage_gerard! So much to think about here.

This neatly separates the issues. I think I have been much too focused on convincing him that we would be a good match. I've always thought he is so incredible, my own insecurities made me doubt that I was good enough for him. But I don't think my suitability has ever been in question. Rather (and certainly now) it is his circumstances, and his mental state. And I can't do much about those.


Well, it is easy to relate. I am an only child and like a lot of solitude myself. I scored 28/50 on the AQ scale. Then I took it again, answering as I thought he might, and got 47/50. So, much of the time, I just multiply my own tendencies by 10.


This is a very good point. However, he and I have been through a lot together, and at no point do I believe that he has ever intentionally taken advantage of me. Nor have I ever done it to him. There has always been a "purity of motives" between us. What I see as a strong attractor, may be part of what is holding him back. Based on all of the input here, I'm actually wondering if his suspicions and skepticism are kind of a "too good to be true" reaction.


Highly analytical, yes. Finding excuses to leave up his walls, yes. But over the last few years, he has crept closer and closer. Sometimes it feels like coaxing a stray cat to come get fed and petted. Can't go too fast, or do anything to spook them. But the only obstacle left is his "mental block," and I think he'll eventually get past it.

So much to think about - thank you!

Brian, your first post brought tears to my eyes. He once told me he thinks he may be worthless as a human being. It shocked me that such words could even come out of his mouth. Is he perfect? No. But he's the most amazing man I've ever met. So he probably has as much trouble understanding my view, as I have understanding his.

I did exactly that, several months ago. He rejected it as unrealistic, because our feelings for each other are too strong. He isn't interested in exploring other possibilities, and neither am I. He just isn't comfortable with his new life and routines yet, and isn't sure how to integrate me into his life. He is black and white, all-consuming. To him, sex = relationship = meet the kids = get married, move in, etc. He understands that the ex will blow a frigging gasket or three when she learns of a new woman - stepmom! - in his life. So giving things time to settle down seems wise to me too.

No, no, there is NOTHING impulsive about it. Here's the thought process. Before making any big decision, I war-game. I look for patterns in the noise. I identify problems, causes, solutions. I identify obstacles, and how to overcome them. I write, I draw diagrams, I do research, I seek input in case I'm missing something. I gather as much data as I can, and analyze the s**t out of the situation, for days, weeks, months. I narrow it all down to the optimal course of action, identify optimal timing, and then make a decision. ONLY THEN do I push the big red button. And since the analysis was comprehensive, and the decision the best possible based on all available data, I don't feel much anxiety.

However. General Patton once said, "no plan survives contact with the enemy." Indeed. There are always variables that cannot be predicted in advance, and sometimes they are big enough to derail the whole thing. I've lost a few big gambles that way, with bloody awful results. But I am secure in the knowledge that I did the best I could - and I didn't die. That's the important part. As long as you're still alive, there is a way forward.

In the spirit of contributing to your research, and the idea that you are coming to 'know your enemy' by looking so deeply into the Aspie experience..I would add the notional context that that he is dealing with a kind of Post Traumatic relationship Stress.
The implication being that his responses to you are indeed not personal, are outside of his current control -- though he is clearly working on it all, and he is in a kind of shock.
Moreover, he is unable to disconnect from his triggers at this time, due to the children.

There is always light at the end, with support and faith in him, as you do provide even now, as his friend.

Golden. I'm going to remember that.

Bingo. Two days before our rendezvous, he picked up his kids for the weekend. He texted with me all evening, while watching movies at home with them. He doesn't multitask, so that surprised me. That exchange is also when he started in with the accusations and mistrust. The next day, he backed out.

He said he still feels a lot of guilt over the kids. 6 months after his ex threw him out of the house (the $1.5 million house he bought for her, in which he had only a small room in the basement), she begged him to come back. He said no. Definitely the right answer, but I'm still impressed he had the strength to do that. He does not leave relationships - relationships leave him. (Yet another reason I am standing my ground. He can be very stubborn, but so can I. )

I imagine his "PTRS" is aggravated by the fact that he is continually re-exposed to her, due to arrangements with the kids. Almost two years after he refused to come back, she was still sending him all kinds of hostile, harassing emails (ranging from "I hope you burn in hell for eternity you rotten S.O.B." to "I want to suck your cock.") I asked him if she's still doing that, what interacting with her is like, and all he said was "it can be managed." I'm not sure what that means, but it doesn't sound like she's being civil and courteous.

He gave his whole life to this woman, and no doubt internalized a lot of mean things she said to him. All of the bullying and harassment he experienced in school is repeating itself. She may even be threatening him ("if you ever let any other woman near our kids, I'll --- " ). I may have added to his worry, when I told him that my biggest concern is her potential for violence/crazy stuff, so I'd want to remain invisible for as long as possible. I don't know how he interpreted that. My intent is to give him plenty of space, and do what little I can to protect us all from this witch. I do not want him or the kids to suffer, because she is insane with jealousy over me.

At the same time, she has always managed to get at least some of what she wants by being horrible, and I am real tired of how it allows her to dominate his life. She is going to be awful to him no matter what he does, so I don't see any point in making an effort to placate her. Easy for me to say, from a distance. I just wish that he would reach the same conclusion.

Gentlemen, what do you think?

At this point, my initial questions have been answered. I will try to just forget he said any of that stuff, and not take it personally. All this input has helped me understand how his perceives the situation, and appreciate just how tough it is for him.

My school experience was very different. I befriended weaker kids, and defended them, and bullied the bullies - kids and adults alike. My father's favorite saying was, "give 'em hell, Harry." So I did. Injustice pissed me off.

Example: age 10 or so, I was in an awkward phase. Two stupid jerk boys had gotten the whole class to call me "Ostaf" behind my back (fatso, backwards, ha ha). I was also the class math whiz, and the teachers had me tutor my classmates. So one day these boys came to me for help. I asked them each to work a problem, so I could see where they were going wrong. Yep, they were dumb, no idea. I was about to correct them - but then I smiled and nodded and told them they had it exactly right, just do every problem the same way. That made them feel smart and they went away happy. A few days later, the teachers handed our papers back. The delicious moment I'd been waiting for. I watched their eyes widen and their jaws drop, and then they looked over at me. Quietly, I said, "what's the matter? Did you get a D for Dumb, or an F for Fatso?" That was the end of that. What I didn't expect, was how the other kids reacted. Apparently I punked those little turds so bad, some kids scrambled to protect me playing four-square at recess. They were scared I'd get nailed in the head, and then who would help them?

So my experience was like that. I had power, and used it to right wrongs. It never occurred to me to not stand up for myself, or any kid being treated unfairly. So it is difficult for me to understand how that impulse is not instinctive in others.

In the early days with my Aspie, I used to say that learning him was like peeling an onion, always with another layer underneath. No one knew about AS then, but I really did try to understand the vulnerability, the innocence, the sensitivity. But he is a huge, muscular guy, always dressed immaculately in tailored suits, and professionally highly successful. He was also intensely sexual, and didn't care too much about getting to know me as a person. Trying to resolve all the contradictions was maddening. People were intimidated by him, which gave him tremendous social power, but he didn't seem to grasp that.

My understanding of him has grown leaps and bounds since then. I wish I could do more to protect him, defend him - and maybe one day maybe I will be able to. The comments here have given me so much hope and strength. I am grateful.

Best to you, and to your love.
He's a fortunate person to have you around.

I expect he wants to move on too, but is still emotionally haunted by his experiences.


I can well believe it's not intentional. I've unwittingly put people through a lot with my verbal output. I still struggle to understand the power that words have to bring people down, and it's very hard for me to achieve reciprocity in conversation. It is very much like thinking out loud.....it would be a harsh criticism but a fair cop at times to tell me that I may as well be talking to a stuffed dummy for all the difference it makes. It probably comes over as dominating, though it's never meant to be.


It could very well be.......also I was thinking about how you planned it so it wouldn't be a shock.......in my limited experience, it can also panic people if the expectation of consummation is too explicit. At the point of meeting, a person can suddenly feel very exposed.


Yes, and I'd say that "gentle" should be the operative word there, as long as it's not so gentle that progress isn't made. If things don't move easily, there must be a lot of strategies for urging people out of dark moods. If I were the Aspie in this situation, my main block would probably be an intense fear of leaving real problems unexamined, but Aspies are all different of course.

Yes. It took me a long time to get over my divorce too - but it isn't the same. This discussion has helped me appreciate how much deeper it goes.

Oh, he suggested, initiated and planned the whole thing, which is why he felt so terrible for backing out. I never push him or bring up sex - I always let him take the lead. This is the first time he did, and he was quite explicit about what would happen.


One thing I am just now starting to grasp about our initial relationship, all those years ago, is that I became his Special Interest. So while I am flexible and willing to structure a relationship around the demands of both our lives, I think that is a major challenge for him. He was unable to manage his impulses back then, and I know it takes great effort to control them now. Do you think this was/is a factor?

Sounds like a classic Aspie gaffe to me. I think we find it even harder to know how we're going to feel than how we currently feel. And we try to solve our emotional problems intellectually. But again, it's not as if you were all that new to each other. Certainly these days I've got it through my head that sleeping with somebody is a huge commitment that makes me wide open to getting badly hurt.


Yes I think he could be scared of the extent of his own passion. Personally I detest feeling dependent on the behaviour of partners, and am particularly wary of emotional infidelity issues becoming intractable. But that's just because of my own individual experiences in relationships.....I've never reunited with a partner after having another relationship during the gap, so my baggage has only been relevent to new, unknown partners.

I recognise the "partner = special interest" thing. I can't imagine it any other way, and this "being in love gives way to something deeper" paradigm makes little sense to me. Sure, one calms down. But a relationship to me is either something of an obsession, or it's gone wrong. He could simply be worried about restructuring his life......it might be worth looking at what he would stand to lose there. I seem able to suddenly change almost my whole life (have done so a few times), though I've come to be wary of doing that. On the other hand, my solo special interests always have to be relegated because it's the only way we can be there for each other, and I know what I'm like once I start programming or whatever, so I try not to start at all if I think it's going to run into my relationship time, and I ask partners to feel free to intervene if I should get carried away. It's quite a price for an Aspie to pay, and I can see how it could be scary to do that. Personally I tend to feel that the solo stuff will always be there for me, though anything social might well not be, if I stop feeding it.

I was wondering if you might also find clues in the relationship you had with him before you drifted apart. If you'd been really happy together, wouldn't you have hung onto each other more tightly? Maybe an issue or two from back then is spooking him?

ToughDiamond, thank you for having so much to say! So many thought-provoking questions.

Right! He once told me he doesn't plan his life more than 2 days ahead. While that is not at all true in his professional life, it very much describes his personal life. His inability to plan, or give any indication of his future intentions, drives me batty, and has caused some of his relationships to end.

(This is because the concept of having no intentions at all, one way or the other, is totally alien, incomprehensible, and flatly unbelievable, to NTs. NT minds are constantly chattering, war-gaming, hypothesizing, imagining, contingency-planning, predicting, extrapolating, and prognosticating, so the idea that an intelligent professional could have a total blank space there, is just not credible.)

However, I've learned enough about AS, and known him long enough, that I can predict - not what he'll do, exactly, but where his tendencies will take him. We always talk again eventually, and even though he'll never say when (can't?), the intervals are getting shorter.


I agree - and that's what it was like with us. But his other relationships have not been like that, due to the mismatched needs of him and the women he winds up with. A major issue is that he is very physical and LOVES sex. LOTS and LOTS of it. It's how he communicates and receives love. But he is physically enormous, has a severe, scary face (to some), and can come across as demanding, invasive, and weird. He tends to attract superficial social climbers, so most of them find him terrifying, overwhelming, and/or emotionally detached. The few who could tolerate it, told him that sex is all he's good for. His ex-wife didn't respond much to him, always closed her eyes. (That really bothered him. Made him wonder what she was thinking about, and feel insecure about his "ugly" face.) So he is oddly hypersensitive - hates being flirted with or hit on, because women make him feel like a piece of meat. I'm the only one who could interpret him, adapt to him, "speak his language." I love his face, everything, and was just as into it as he was. So I was sexually available, whenever and however he wanted. Which was a LOT. That is the sense in which I was his SI.


Absolutely - I've thought about that a lot. I believe the kids (ages 9 and 10) are the major issue. During the marriage, he lived for his routines with them: making them breakfast, taking them to school, making their dinner, putting them to bed. For a long time after she threw him out of the house, he still drove over there twice a day to do all that. But those routines are gone now.

The visitation agreement is that he gets the kids every other weekend, Thu-Sun. But he has to travel a lot for work right now (not ordinarily the case), so he isn't always around for "his" days. He doesn't seem too upset about that, although it must be disruptive. He has hired help, and seems now to regard time with the kids as a chore, a duty, rather than something that really excites him. He's told me a few times that he feels guilt over them. (Guilt over what, I'm not sure. Losing interest? He's told me he didn't really want them to begin with.)

So before our rendezvous, he fretted over "the meaning" of us having sex. I said, let's just enjoy it, and take things one step at a time. If we want to continue, each subsequent time would be by mutual agreement, given the constraints of our jobs and his time with the kids. That seems reasonable to me, and an NT guy would be thrilled to have a woman so understanding and flexible. But my guy is not an NT, and rejected that approach. I wonder if he's not capable.

Back then, he literally could not stay the night in the same dwelling with me, without "having" me. Even now he refuses to be in a private space with me, for fear of losing control. The fact that he came into my apartment building, and met me in the lobby, was a big deal. He seemed nervous and we left immediately to walk to a restaurant.

Given all that, I wonder if he is afraid that sex with me is all he'll want - that I'll become his SI again - and he won't care about the kids anymore. I care about them, and his relationship with them, and I would not let that happen. Yet, I know him, and that may not be within my control.


Good thought, and I used to think so. However, he and I have been over all that many times, so I think all that is resolved.

He developed a solo SI to cope with the divorce - triathlons, 20 of them in 1 year! - but he doesn't race anymore. His waking hours are work, gym, kids, and that's it. I'm sure he is still emotionally raw from the divorce, but I know he'll get past it. So I'd be very interested in your thoughts on the dilemma he seems to face now - how to integrate two seemingly exclusive elements.

Thanks for saying so. I get quite fascinated by people's experiences of relationships.

I can see myself in there. I've got a few goals and hopes, but I only seem to plan if it's a very specific project with a very specific result........and I'd much sooner devote all my time to a goal until it's done, than keep breaking off. I don't know if executive disfunction has something to do with it. Naturally it's harder to keep a project under control if I keep getting distracted. But also that knowledge that I don't know if I'll still want the result of the project next year or whatever, I think that's a factor.

I like your description of it - the concept of somebody having no intentions at all. Somebody once asked me how long I intended to stick to the job I had at the time, and I replied "until I can't stand it any more." Another guy disdainfully pointed out that some people my age had their whole life planned out while others just drifted along.....he had a thing about people not showing enough drive for his taste, which I took at the time to be his problem, but he was probably just being a tad more blunt about what many NTs think but don't say.

I think I tend to see survival and preservation of what I already have as my main life ambition, i.e. step 1 = don't let anything get any worse. Not that I'm content to be static. That would mean being partnerless for the rest of my life, and relatively friendless too.....I think for me it's more about learning lessons.....so for example I have a fond hope of becoming more socially adept through experience, but I have no clue about what lessons they will turn out to be. I just try to "post-mortem" my way through my apparent shortcomings as a social animal, and hope that my conclusions will get translated into more productive behaviour when the opportunity happens to come up.

I guess the most palpable sign of longterm planning I've shown recently has been a plan to save up enough money to make it so I can quit my job and live on the equivalent of half my salary until it's pension time. That was a 2-year mission which involved a lot of calculating and projecting, actually with a D-Day on which I'd predicted I would have achieved my goal. I had to juggle a bit with limited-term, high interest deposits to minimise the effects of inflation, and every month I would religiously look through the figures and work out how well I'd done, compare targets with achievements, etc. I can think of 2 things that made the project unusual though - first, my motivation was colossal........the job was very Aspie-unfriendly at the time and my greatest fear was that I'd get forced out as a lazy, unco-operative jerk and spend the rest of my life with the benefits people cracking their (probably even harsher) whip at me. The second thing is that it was it was a fairly simple project as projects go. I get £X per month, need £Y to live, deposit £(X-Y) per month, continue till goal reached. Interest and inflation rates could help or hinder, but not by a huge amount. No dynamically-changing social parameters to worry about.

But generally, yes......the idea of waking up to a day that's been already mapped out seems almost like death, and frankly when I've tried to live that way, I've just rebelled against myself. Though that could be just my problem.......I've often thought I'd feel better about these things if I hadn't had so many lofty demands from parents, teachers, and employers which probably jaundiced my view of duty and commitment.



Hmmm........I suspect this reluctance to promise to be with you isn't particularly an autistic thing. I'm fine with appointments. They're awkward because I have to remember to keep them, but social things burn bright in my consciousness. I thought we were usually welded to our promises and had a big ethical thing about turning up exactly on time. Though maybe the sheer need to keep promises is a big factor in this reluctance to make them? To an NT, breaking a promise is perhaps like lying - not desirable, but hey, we're human. To me, it's a rather more serious matter than that, and I probably do think a lot more carefully than most about what I'm committing to.

There used to practically be a culture of not scheduling social things in one area I lived in. Parties would be scheduled, but there was a real reluctance to just say "yes, I'll be in on Wednesday." I also noticed it with my son, who always seems to want to keep his social options open, though he's mellowing a bit now. Me, I like a social thing to be pretty much guaranteed.


I think there is something about sex that seems to dissolve for a while the "glass wall" many Aspies feel between them and humanity. I think sex changes things very profoundly between a couple, which I think can feel dangerous (and be dangerous).......I don't know that quantity affects it much though. The strong dependency feelings and resulting anxieties about my partners that have followed haven't correlated with frequency. I think it's more like a switch. There's a great upside of course, but for me I'm sure the anxiety has inhibited my ability to work at the relationships in the right ways.


I can imagine how they might feel a sense of imbalance - I'm sure I might - but that was a cruel way for them to express it to him.


There was one of mine got very distant not just sexually but with everything, as if the only thing holding her to me was inertia. It was uncannily subtle, but I ended up feeling pretty inadequate, and all the usual feelings of acceptance vanished.


When I separated from my son's mother I felt worse than I'd ever felt in my life. Not because of losing her so much, although the shock of adultery naturally didn't help, but because of what it was doing to my son, who was only 5 years old. He'd only just been moved to a new town. He used to be bubbly. Unless you've hurt your own child, it's hard to understand the feeling. He had issues with his mother's partners, and I too found it hard to balance my need for adult love with fatherhood........you can't be there for two people who don't have any particular bonds with each other, at the same time. And the presence of a new partner underscores the (partial) loss of the true parent. The estranged parent and the new partner are often natural enemies. I'm sure it can be managed well if the people are wise enough, but it could be a testing time. And it's only my experience, but I've seen many people who act like they're over their separation but turn out to be still emotionally involved......I always try to find out who decided to end the relationship, and then take a careful look at the other one.......



Your patience is definitely rare. If the genders were reversed it would be a lot less unusual, although no less frustrating. The tension must be horrible. His reaction is extreme, but the basic idea - to wait a while before committing to a sexual relationship and being scared of the poor chances of sticking to that (nature being nature), I think that's sound. But quantitatively, it's almost off the scale. If he hasn't slept with anybody since his ex, that could be creating a psychological boundary.


See above. The conflict between my own needs and those of my son often made me feel like I was at heart a lousy parent.


I hope I've given you some clues if nothing else. The parenthood thing seems the most important as far as I can see. I think it helps to do that very gradually, let them get used to you slowly.

ToughDiamond, your input regarding "no intentions at all" is very helpful. At root, this is why we did not stay together back then. In that time frame, we were graduating and preparing to move long distances to take jobs. I had no idea he wanted me to stay with him. He never brought it up, never asked. I thought we had something unique and workable. But I couldn't get him to commit even to just seeing me again. My thinking was, if he won't commit to spending one night, obviously he doesn't want to spend his life with me. (I was also young (23), and believed that dignified women wait for the man to ask.)

I'd attempted to infer his future intentions, and learned only much later that my reasoning was incorrect. It never occurred to me that any intention at all was simply absent. This became an issue when we first got back in contact a few years ago: he was pissed with me for always leaving the country. I'd done it twice, so he was mistrustful and suspicious that I'd do it again. He once demanded to meet with me in person, to prove that I wasn't calling from Timbuktu. I went so far as to show him my expired passport (which must be surrendered upon renewal), to prove that I couldn't leave. Finally (! !!) he let that go.

The miscommunications (and breakups) that arise out of that absence of intentions are a major cause of his deep mistrust. He perseverates on the smallest of perceived wrongs. I have patiently endured his interrogations, and gone to rather extreme lengths to back up my words with deeds. To any NT, I'm sure I would seem unhealthily obsessed. But as I have come to understand his world, I am simply determined to rebut his endless stream of baseless accusations. To prove I am not like the others. I guess I've been successful, since what I asked about in the original post is all he has left. Excuses. I asked him to please stop punishing me, just because other women have been sh***y to him. He said, "ok,, I understand. I don't mean to do that." So, I'm exhausted, but I really don't think it's about me anymore.

Yes, that describes him too, including his attitude toward me. Extremely all or nothing. He's told me he would hate to say to me, "I can't do this anymore." As frustrating as it is, that's a risk I'd rather not take too.


Yes - he would definitely agree. It took me a long time to comprehend this. His whole life would have turned out differently if he'd been in the habit of making a few simple words come out of his mouth: "please," "thank you," "I'm sorry," "I love you," and "don't go." That's all it would have taken, so - ??? For me, learning about AS was like finding the light switch in a dark room.


That makes sense. As unfulfilling as his marriage was, I've noticed that his verbal communication and ability to express himself has improved a great deal since our initial relationship. I can't say I'm thankful to the ex-wife for that, exactly, but comparing the difference between age 30 and age 45, he obviously made a huge effort. Frankly, he's better at explaining his thought process than my (NT) ex. At this point, I feel the failure is on my end. It's always such a shock to see him, so random, so infrequent. So I don't think of the right questions to ask, until much later.


I actually think this is a KEY issue, at least with my Aspie - and very difficult when combined with the absence of intentions. NT language is filled with, "see you soon!" "talk to you later! "I'll let you know!" etc. NTs have a powerful need for a sense of continuity. Now, maybe they'll call, maybe they won't. Whether that's acceptable depends on the circumstances and the nature of the relationship. But when two people part, just saying it is important - even if you're not sure if you will or not. It's one way NTs judge which relationships are important. The ones who do what they say are more important than the ones who don't.

Even back then, my Aspie never gave any indication of when I'd hear from him again. In the later phase, when I was no longer his SI and he'd reverted to his "AS" self, he never said he'd call, and never did. I always called him, every 2 or 3 weeks. That's the minimum I need to feel like a relationship is real, something more than casual friendship. (I think most women require much more frequent contact. It depends on how much they have going on in life, and how secure they are). He was always glad to hear from me, which was a relief, but also very puzzling. If I was so important to him, why did he never call me?

He has always had a very strict interpretation of what is a "lie." Yet, many "lies" NTs tell each other ("talk to you soon") are as necessary as food and water, meant to satisfy that deep need for continuity. To give us a sense of community, that we belong to a social world in which someone would notice if we go missing. His pious, rigid refusal to tell those little lies left me feeling hopeless, isolated, and uncertain of whether he cared or not. Because he wouldn't notice if I went missing. A lot can happen in 2 or 3 weeks, and he felt the city I lived in was very dangerous. Just a quick ring every now and then, e.g., to be sure the zombies didn't get me, would have helped a LOT. (My ex has refused to do that, so as an NT, that means he's just an a**hole.) So, some "promises," or uncertain expressions of future intentions, that Aspies regard as "lies," are critical social glue that helps keep relationships going.

There is more I'd like to respond to, so let's call this Part I, and I'll be back later with Part II!

As an AS male if I dont know exactly how you (the girl) will respond to my actions I don't do them. Some less risky stuff I'll try and hope for the possitive outcome but anything big wont happen. For example my current problem, I don't know how my GF will react if I try to kiss her. So I end up not doing it, I want to but I'm scarred so I don't. I'm not sure how helpful this is but my point is be clear what you want and feel