I wish I could say this to him

Post Reply New Topic

Being a man, anything "obvious" is less-than-obvious. If he's an Aspie, it will be likely be completely out-of-sight, out-of-mind.

Yes, be direct. (Damn lucky dog has a woman THROWING herself at him!)

That said, I also have to agree with the gal above me (I want to say Edna like the avatar!) had to say. If you give him his one last, clear, concise invite/ultamatim and he doesn't respond *NOW* - it's in your own best interest to move on. Pining away for months or years for someone who can't/won't return your love only ends up in clinical depression - and I know because I've been there. Please don't do that to yourself.

I ignore the negativity because being piled on and pressured by negative people back then, who wrongly convinced me to give up on him, is why the situation is what it is now. Many lives got messed up as a result, including two children who didn't ask for any of this. Furthermore:

(a) it is non-responsive to the questions I pose;
(b) saying nothing is nicer than anything else that comes to mind;
(c) I do not have the time, nor the obligation, to justify my life, or the reason weird things make me happy, which I would expect to be understood at WP, of all places; and
(d) it is demoralizing and unhelpful, which isn't good for anyone.

No one is under any obligation to weigh in or opine or subject themselves to my momentary pain and confusion. Everyone is free to read my threads, or not. Helpful, constructive advice is awesome. For those who couldn't personally abide my situation, that's fine too. I'm not asking anyone to live my life for me. I come here for options, for help getting unstuck sometimes - not for swooning about how it's all so miserable and hopeless and dead. I have been here with him before, 15 years ago, and giving up is absolutely not what he wanted me to do. He just didn't say it very well. I had other options, and any of them would have been better than the one I chose. That I gave up made everyone else happy. But it ruined both of us - the only two people that mattered. I won't let that happen again, so long as there is an iota of a chance.

I have been in hopeless situations, where every last possible option has genuinely been exhausted, with literally nothing left but to walk away forever, and find a way to live with it. I've had to do just that - twice. The pain is unbearable. But I tried e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g, and it came down to me, or them. This isn't one of those situations - not even close.

I'm sorry if this comes across as testy. Most people here are nice and well-meaning, and quite a few I would regard as friends IRL. It's just that I do happen to have the time today to explain why I ignore the cacophony of calls to give up. For those who prefer to give up on me and not read my threads - no problem, I understand. It's a strange, frustrating situation.

Recall, my question wasn't, "Should I give up?" By the time I am asking that question, I don't need a second opinion. My question was, should I say these things to him, and if so, in what format? I've responded favorably to BlueMax because (a) he gave me a constructive answer to the question posed, and (b) he is the most similarly situated to my guy - in terms of age, family circumstances, etc., and therefore has the most credibility. (And handsome too! )

Yes, I really do think there might be things I could do that I haven't already done. More precisely, I think there are things I could communicate more clearly. I'm just not sure what, or how. I wanted to brainstorm about things I could do, other than just forget about it for a while (which may be all I can do). BlueMax's idea is fantastic, so I'll think long and hard about that. Given what he just got out of, what he might be getting into next is my guy's #1 concern.

This is a good time to think it over, since I'm so busy with work, it will be a month or two before I could handle him anyway. Our careers account for why longer periods of time aren't such a killer, as they might be to others.

Perhaps it would be better if you said 'I just want to vent, I don't actually want advice'. We are mostly Aspie people here and we often look for solutions rather than offering sympathy, it's certainly my first response.

If you don't want any solutions that do not involve you carrying exactly as you are, then it would be more helpful for you to make that clear. That way those who want to sympathise can do so and those who would be tempted to offer their advice can save their time.

Hm. I did ask for advice. The question was: "Does he need to know? If so, how do I get his attention?"

Sounds like the answer to (a) is yes, while (b) remains open, and probably has to be my call. Maybe there are guys who can give examples of women who got their attention in a creative manner?

Respectfully, I never asked you to start. I lurk on your threads too, but I don't usually speak up, because you're in a situation I can't relate to, and can't offer much helpful input. Hippocratic oath kinda thing: first, do no harm. I truly hope you two live happily ever after. It would be nice if you felt the same for me.

I think you should send him something more along the lines of this^^than your initial post. In the above paragraph, you're putting things in a more positive light, and asking for what you want. You should end by saying that you need each other NOW.

Yes. It's just how he is. He was the same way back then. I basically lived with him for a summer, then he moved to take a job 250 miles away. It was 3-4 months before he gave me his address, so I could visit. I had his home number, but not his work or cell numbers. He regards email as for business only. Weird, but as long as we have one line of communication, what's the big deal? He much prefers in person, as do I. He always answered when I'd call - every 2-3 weeks.

That's the only communications aspect that's different now. Even so, he usually answers, but I don't call, when I know he's in a phase. I don't want to interfere or interrupt because he can be very unpleasant. He also hates saying no to me, and I hate hearing it, so when he's in a phase like this, I just don't ask. I avoid putting him in a position where, in my very imperfect judgment, "no" is likely. To him, phones are mainly to set up in-person details, although we've had several long phone conversations (1-2 hours) in recent years, most recently in March. That's new. He never did that before.

About a year ago, I told him that, in the context of my relationships, we've spent very little time talking. He replied that, in the context of his relationships, we've spent a LOT of time talking. That was a very useful bit of information. It gave me a frame of reference for what he regards as normal. It is nothing like what most NTs regard as normal - or Aspies, for that matter. That was always ok with me. It was not ok with everyone else. But I was the one in the relationship, not them.

Against that backdrop, after a year, I was feeling sad and blue and confused - much as I am now. He loved me, I loved him, and I could live with it - I just wanted to understand. But the critics and the busybodies piled on, insisting he was no good, that I was living in fantasyland, etc., People who'd never spent a minute alone with him insisted on substituting their judgment for my own, and pressured me into breaking it off. I was weak, and I caved. Biggest mistake of my life.

Two years later I tracked him down and checked in on him. He'd lost 50 pounds, almost killed himself, and to this day does not understand how social pressure could have torn me away from him. How I could have left him, without a gun literally to my head. If he'd been a fly on the wall, he would have seen that that is almost what it took. So, that is sure as hell what it will take now.

You may have seen ToughDiamond's big reveal on an earlier thread: this guy just does not know how to have a modern relationship. That is ok with me. He knows enough, that I'm happy to work out the rest as we go.

Thank you very much. I re-read them both, and I agree 100%. I don't want to be whiny and negative. I want RESULTS!

Like I said, spell it out without being overly negative like an ultimatim, but really... it kinda' is. And it needs to be. He needs to make a decision and he needs to make it PDQ - does he want a serious relationship with you or not? A firm (but not overly harsh) press on this issue is definitely required. Too harsh, the answer will very likely be no. Too wishy-washy, the answer will likely be, "Maybe later" and no real energy spent on a REAL answer.

It's time to decide... he's had more than plenty of time already!

(BTW - thanks for the ego-boosting compliment!)

Yes. A penultimatum? Would you say, mostly letter #2, with the main points of letter #1 at the end? Or "firmer" than that? I have a hard time judging what he might regard as "harsh." My ex thought direct, factual, emotionally neutral statements were hostile, even verbal abuse. So my compass is all out of whack, and I tend to undershoot.

On one hand, I'm hesitant to apply pressure. For one thing, he can react horribly if the timing is bad. Also, his divorce was final just 6 months ago. It can take time for the reality of it to sink in. On the other hand, if he's grieving anything, it's the loss of routines he misses, and that's about it. And I am reaching the point where I need to know if this is going to happen, or not. It doesn't have to be next week. I won't even have time to write it until next month. But, I need an answer by, say, the end of November, at the latest.

But you're 100% right, and I am ready to take action. Yet, I'm flexible and diplomatic by nature, so it's going to take major effort for me to turn up the volume. That gives me deja vu from the old days. I got "maybe later" from him many times back then. I thought I was firm and clear, but evidently he perceived it as wishy-washy, because that went nowhere. Once I got upset, and shocked myself when I realized that I'd delivered the whole rant, naked as an egg. I thought that underscored my point pretty powerfully , , , but he probably didn't hear a word.

I am also scared of giving him an ultimatum - scared that the answer won't be what I want. But I made that mistake back then too. I broke up with him rather than risk the pain of an answer I couldn't bear. I now know, the answer probably would have been yes. As it stands, I've got nothing, which means I've got nothing to lose.


You're quite welcome! Your advice is really helpful too. Thank you!

It's definitely time to push... relatively gently, but without backing down. You know him best so no one here can suggest the *best* way to do that... but you need to make your desires known - plain and simple. You also know what you want from him, so spell that out plain and simple. Does he want what you want or does he want something else (and what might that be?)

In other words - a frank, open and honest conversation. If he's still unwilling to provide a straight answer, you can probably accept it as a "no".

Ok, BlueMax - I think you're right. I am now at basically the same fork in the road I came to back then. I was surrounded by people who thought he was despicable and evil, and couldn't understand why I wasn't outraged. I agreed that his words and behavior were erratic and upsetting. But I wasn't outraged, because I didn't agree with them about the cause of it. They just "knew" he was scum. But scumbags are rational and deliberate, and both of those elements were missing. Lots of little things just did not add up. Upon questioning, he sounded as helpless as a 6-year-old. I was more interested in making sense of it, than passing judgment and writing him off. If I'd been older and more confident, I would have tuned out the busybodies, and tried to get him to talk to me more. He is much more talkative now than he was then, so that helps.

This is the fork in the road I did not take then, that I have the chance to take now. I fully agree that I need to make my desires known, and spell it all out. I did not come all this way with him - only to hide the ball! I have told him that I want to be married, that I will expect that, that I deserve the honor of that commitment. He agreed. Otherwise, I've been pretty sketchy on details, and that could be what's making him nervous. Frankly, I've been trying to find out more about his capabilities, his priorities, his likes and dislikes, etc., because I need to know all that, before I could propose a detailed outline. I think I have enough information now.

I'll have to work out the details on my own, but this was very helpful, BlueMax. It really is quite simple. I'm sure it will be a while before I have anything to report, but I'll keep you posted! I wish you the best in your situation too.

I have been following this thread for a couple of reasons.
I, too, have recently posted a 'help me' thread. (A Letter My Aspie Will Never Read) and was somewhat surprised by the wide gamut of responses. I was kinda shocked at how seemingly easily people could counsel me to just chuck it in! Rather than take the advice of those who said bail, I chose to take the advice of those who said share. And I will be eternally thankful, as we hashed out our issues over the course of several hours(!) and now have taken our relationship to a positive new level of understanding.
My friends have also pushed for me to 'get out while I can', and tell me to find someone who will really love me...they don't realize that he DOES really love me - he just shows it in a Non-NT way. I wasn't seeing the things he was doing as expressions of his love, I just saw him not being like other men I have known. I was so focused on what he wasn't doing that I wasn't seeing the things he was doing that were so far outside his comfort zone that I am kinda ashamed that I doubted.
I had to TELL him though. I had to CLEARLY spell out what I needed and LISTEN to what he needed. I had to 'seek first to understand' (as Stephen Covey would say) what he was able to give and I needed to share what I was able to give. We both want to help each other help us - we just needed to discuss how it can be done...and by posting my 'letter', I was able to gather my thoughts and then present him with clear talking points in a concise manner. I had to repeatedly remind him that I WANTED us to work and these difficult topics would help us to be happier in the long run.
So, my advice is: TELL HIM! Tell him how you feel, tell him what you want, tell him what you need, tell him what you will give in return and tell him how long you are willing/able to wait for an answer. Then it is up to him to make a choice based on all the available information

I'm sorry to see how this is all turning out for you.

You might try playing this song to him, if it reflects your angst. Or just say the first and last lines.

Basically I think you need to warn him that he doesn't have much longer, and then you need to stick to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9SpX64g84U

If not now, then when?
If not today, then
Why make your promises?
A love declared for days to come
Is as good as none

You can wait till morning comes
You can wait for the new day
You can wait and lose this heart
You can wait and soon be sorry

Now love's the only thing that's free
We must take it where it's found
Pretty soon it may be costly

If not now what then?
We all must live our lives
Always feeling
Always thinking
The moment has arrived

Lorann, your question was actually what inspired mine. I've been thinking that it's time for me to shift from a passive to a more active role. Not so much *doing* things, exactly, but *saying* things. The trouble for NTs is, we intuit and infer so much from context, without consciously thinking about it, that we aren’t sure what needs to be explicitly stated. We know our guys are sharp and perceptive, and we don’t want to insult them. We get despondent and confused sometimes, and need a little help muddling through. That’s all.

I followed your thread too, and I was glad to see that you got constructive advice, very glad you took it, and THRILLED that it produced such positive results!

I noted the naysayers and negative nancies on your thread too - and many others. That’s why I took the time to point out how damaging all that casual, off-the-cuff “dump him” advice can be. The effects can be devastating, last many years, and impact many lives. As if people we love, who are important in our lives, are expendable, disposable, and fungible, the moment there is discomfort or inconvenience.

I’d bet the woes of many men here are the result of being on the receiving end of such damaging advice. Gossiping grandmothers, nattering ninnies, filling their wives/GF’s heads with garbage. I’d also imagine that many guys here are not so different from my guy: intelligent, funny, compassionate, handsome, successful, law-abiding, doesn’t drink, doesn’t smoke, doesn’t do drugs, loves his kids - a model citizen. And he loves me so much, he hardly knows what to do with all those intense feelings.

Yet I’m being judged because I’ve never seen a need to demand all his contact information? Or because he’s handling objectively difficult issues in a non-NT way, and I’m letting him do that? Really? He calls himself a throwback. Sure enough, he's behaving like a typical Victorian husband. If not interacting with me as much as I would like is all he does wrong, that puts him ahead of most men, AS, NT, or otherwise. 100 years ago, I would have been told to bask in the privilege of waiting for such a man. It frankly makes me that much more committed. And wary about who I express my feelings to, when those inevitable low moments cloud my better judgment.

Bingo. It’s not always easy, but I try to focus on all the ways he does show his love, rather than all the ways he doesn’t. I’ve done many things outside my comfort zone to show my love - but so has he. I think presenting my guy with clear talking points in a concise manner is just the thing too. I will be sure to remind him that my intent is to help us be happier in the long run. Nothing I have to say is so terrible - and undoubtedly more productive that what he’s used to too.

Keep us posted. Thanks for being so positive!

You have no idea how much I appreciate hearing these words - I could kiss you!!
My marriage was destroyed by this sort of advice which is more of a slow-acting poison than anything else. Bitter women less than satisfied with their good-but-not-good-enough husbands telling someone else to dump or cheat on their husband because they wish they could do the same (at least that day.)



It's interesting how on a support site for AS, so many of us still expect us to act as neutotypicals, and/or judge the same way. Just remember that opinions are like armpits - everyone has 'em and they often stink.


Where were you 15 years ago? Congrats on you and Lorann having good heads on your shoulders!