Being the man is too stressful

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The_Face_of_Boo
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02 Jun 2013, 8:06 am

Tyri0n wrote:
yellowtamarin wrote:
I dunno, look for women who don't seem to be too stereotypical to their gender? As in, maybe look for sporty women or women with short hair or women who don't wear much make-up. They might be less likely to conform to the "traditional" female roles.

Also you might need to compromise a bit, as in, try a woman who doesn't believe in a "lead role" but who prefers to work together or take turns with this sort of stuff. You'll have to do some of the work but not all of it. I call this the "relaxed, sensible approach" to dating.


Yeah, a 50-50 split would be fine and a huge improvement over what I have experienced. Some of what I mean by being "the man" is difficult to explain. But the women I attract are often very passive and traditional, so whatever most guys experience, I tend to experience to an extreme.


You sure it's just a matter of "traditional woman" - I saw similar expectation from "modern women".

I say.... dating is VERY evolutionary-driven, meaning it's the social ritual where human's sexual selection happens the most.

It would be very hard to override that or to find women who want to override it.

Maybe you can try...bisexual women? They tend to be way less traditional and less keen to gender roles.



MCalavera
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02 Jun 2013, 8:27 am

Within the dating realm, yes, it's too stressful as a man, I agree.



Tyri0n
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02 Jun 2013, 8:50 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Tyri0n wrote:
yellowtamarin wrote:
I dunno, look for women who don't seem to be too stereotypical to their gender? As in, maybe look for sporty women or women with short hair or women who don't wear much make-up. They might be less likely to conform to the "traditional" female roles.

Also you might need to compromise a bit, as in, try a woman who doesn't believe in a "lead role" but who prefers to work together or take turns with this sort of stuff. You'll have to do some of the work but not all of it. I call this the "relaxed, sensible approach" to dating.


Yeah, a 50-50 split would be fine and a huge improvement over what I have experienced. Some of what I mean by being "the man" is difficult to explain. But the women I attract are often very passive and traditional, so whatever most guys experience, I tend to experience to an extreme.


You sure it's just a matter of "traditional woman" - I saw similar expectation from "modern women".

I say.... dating is VERY evolutionary-driven, meaning it's the social ritual where human's sexual selection happens the most.

It would be very hard to override that or to find women who want to override it.

Maybe you can try...bisexual women? They tend to be way less traditional and less keen to gender roles.


You're right, it doesn't. I use "traditional" in a much broader sense than others. I also have an interesting effect on women. Two years ago, I caused a hard-core man-hating feminist who didn't believe in commitment to become a stereotypically insecure, passive girl. Then, she fell in love, and I ran for the hills. But it was interesting nonetheless, and she was bi. :lol:



ShamelessGit
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02 Jun 2013, 8:55 am

As I'm sure all you guys know, I looked into PUA a little bit in high school, and it worked, but I didn't like it. Since then I've been trying to find some sort of synthesis or compromise between my natural inclinations and what actually works, and I haven't found any. I'm coming to the conclusion that there is only one correct mating ritual in the human species, and deviating from it will always result in less success. I think it is really just like how female birds select based on songs, and may not mate with a perfectly healthy male who sings a song that she doesn't like. I think biologists have actually classified birds as different species who can technically mate, but don't because the males of the species sing different songs and the females only like their own song. I am thinking that trying to get a mate by singing a different song than everybody else will always be dependent on finding strange and/or damaged partners, which is basically just luck.



Tyri0n
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02 Jun 2013, 9:11 am

ShamelessGit wrote:
As I'm sure all you guys know, I looked into PUA a little bit in high school, and it worked, but I didn't like it. Since then I've been trying to find some sort of synthesis or compromise between my natural inclinations and what actually works, and I haven't found any. I'm coming to the conclusion that there is only one correct mating ritual in the human species, and deviating from it will always result in less success. I think it is really just like how female birds select based on songs, and may not mate with a perfectly healthy male who sings a song that she doesn't like. I think biologists have actually classified birds as different species who can technically mate, but don't because the males of the species sing different songs and the females only like their own song. I am thinking that trying to get a mate by singing a different song than everybody else will always be dependent on finding strange and/or damaged partners, which is basically just luck.


I learned PUA on the street from military buddies.

Looking specifically for damaged or strange partners is an interesting strategy. I have thought about it a lot but have never actually put it into practice. It's not always easy to identify them in real life, and it's hard to use dating sites for this without coming across as a predator.



Last edited by Tyri0n on 02 Jun 2013, 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ann2011
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02 Jun 2013, 9:11 am

Tyri0n, just do what your comfort level allows. You are assuming that these expectations exist. Who knows what the girl is actually thinking. She might be beating herself up for perceived failings too. You know how hard it is for both genders of aspie to create conversation.
If you're thinking you're gay, that's a whole different issue. Is there a particular guy that has brought these feelings on?
At any rate, there are pushy aspie women out there. I know 'cause I am. It's more about meeting the right person then conforming to any perceived form of behaviour.



Tyri0n
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02 Jun 2013, 9:17 am

Ann2011 wrote:
Tyri0n, just do what your comfort level allows. You are assuming that these expectations exist. Who knows what the girl is actually thinking. She might be beating herself up for perceived failings too. You know how hard it is for both genders of aspie to create conversation.
If you're thinking you're gay, that's a whole different issue. Is there a particular guy that has brought these feelings on?
At any rate, there are pushy aspie women out there. I know 'cause I am. It's more about meeting the right person then conforming to any perceived form of behaviour.


Gay? All the secondary markers are there, but it seems that I still am not, or have repressed it. It's very strange though. I am not attracted to naked women at all; actually looks kind of gross. I am attracted to clothes and jewelry. Fit male bodies are fun to look at though, not sure about "attractive," or even what that is.

I am assuming correctly regarding social expectations. Lots of women are not shy to "remind" a man when he was fallen short of gender expectations. Fellow men are even worse. I am the one who always follows the rules without complaining but then explodes suddenly in frustration.

Probably what I hate the most is having to attend to a girl's emotional needs and then having them not get me at all -- and not even try.



Ann2011
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02 Jun 2013, 9:22 am

Tyri0n wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
Tyri0n, just do what your comfort level allows. You are assuming that these expectations exist. Who knows what the girl is actually thinking. She might be beating herself up for perceived failings too. You know how hard it is for both genders of aspie to create conversation.
If you're thinking you're gay, that's a whole different issue. Is there a particular guy that has brought these feelings on?
At any rate, there are pushy aspie women out there. I know 'cause I am. It's more about meeting the right person then conforming to any perceived form of behaviour.


Gay? All the secondary markers are there, but it seems that I still am not. It's very strange though. I am not attracted to naked women at all; actually looks kind of gross. I am attracted to clothes and jewelry. Fit male bodies are fun to look at though, not sure about "attractive," or even what that is.

Just go with your gut.

Quote:
I am assuming correctly regarding social expectations. Lots of women are not shy to "remind" a man when he was fallen short of gender expectations.

That seems kind of bitchy. I would be frustrated with that too. Once a partner asked me "Didn't I want to look sexy for him?" I thought, if I did then I would. Really irked me.

Quote:
Probably what I hate the most is having to attend to a girl's emotional needs and then having them not get me at all -- and not even try.

If your emotional needs are being ignored and not considered, then it's not a good situation. I have to admit that most woman do tend to be a bit demanding emotionally. I'm guilty of that.



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02 Jun 2013, 10:13 am

I get this feeling that relationships that are on perfectly equal footing in terms of confidence level are harder to come by but actually turn out better. It's just that relationships where one person or the other naturally takes the lead are easier to initiate. Probably in more traditional patriarchal cultures there is a compartmentalized divide where a more passive man learns to take the more dominant role in public and the more passive role in private.



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02 Jun 2013, 10:24 am

If the other person doesn't react nor responds and you know it's not because she is only shy the first three dates, then ignore that person. Who wants a lot of very boring dates with a very boring person? Why the effort? I had these kind of dates and I never missed those men after I stopped phoning them.

Yes, there are very passive men too, it's just that you never dated them :lol:


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girly_aspie
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02 Jun 2013, 10:38 am

I'm the opposite, I attract very, very passive men who want someone to take their lives over and solve their problems for them. They don't seem to have any personality of their own at all, and I've just given up because I'm sick of someone latching onto me like that. I don't like "macho" men by any means but someone who is at least willing to take care of their own problems and not lean on me all the time would be nice. :roll:


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Tyri0n
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02 Jun 2013, 12:26 pm

girly_aspie wrote:
I'm the opposite, I attract very, very passive men who want someone to take their lives over and solve their problems for them. They don't seem to have any personality of their own at all, and I've just given up because I'm sick of someone latching onto me like that. I don't like "macho" men by any means but someone who is at least willing to take care of their own problems and not lean on me all the time would be nice. :roll:


I can solve my own problems too. I'm the most independent person I know. I hide my dysfunctionality very well. I am more like you and less like those men.

So we are the same, not opposite. It's just that many women are far too self obsessed. With one exception, where it was just a confused mess, it's all give on my part and no take. Maybe I'm just inscrutable.



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02 Jun 2013, 7:02 pm

There are girls who don't mind if the social cues and routines are nonexistant. In addition, I don't think just because you want a passive role should mean you are into men or should be gay. You are into men if you like men romantically and sexually, not because you want a passive role(Though only you can tell if you truly are into male or female) Anyhow, many women like to take the lead. But I do think some women can tell that the guy is oblivious on what to do and can be able to help out. Though there are some women who get real angry if cues aren't met and those type are just not worth the time, too high maintenance.

In addition, I think female bodies are attractive and I'm a woman, though I think women with curves(not fat)look better naked than too-thin girls. Naked men are neutral for me, yet I'm into men.


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02 Jun 2013, 7:07 pm

Tyri0n wrote:
So we are the same, not opposite. It's just that many women are far too self obsessed. With one exception, where it was just a confused mess, it's all give on my part and no take. Maybe I'm just inscrutable.


I suppose what I actually meant to say was that while you attract women who behave in a gender-stereotyped fashion and expect you to do the same, I seem to attract men who expect me to "be the man", which at least in my head this morning, was the opposite problem. We're in agreement. I also find it exhausting to be the one always taking the lead with the people who date me, and the pressure to provide all of the conversation, direction and drive.

Of course, that's not what I actually typed.

That'll teach me to post before I have coffee.


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02 Jun 2013, 9:40 pm

You are not alone!

The sexes have become so blurred that knowing where we fit, how we fit, and when to fit feels semi-impossible!

I think you'd be surprised at how many "traditional" women wish they could be more assertive or agressive without coming across as forward. In my case, when I've tried with a passive guy, it sent him running, even though I felt I was still being too cautious. ;( It was because I had not a full understanding of my skill set in order to be confident enough to not freak out at the slightest hint of rejection. If you're right now that uncomfortable with direct "dating", focus on marketing your strengths in alternative ways that will simultaneously boost your confidence and connect you with people in non-threatening environments -- e.g. talk more on here and understand people in writing first?

No it's not at all weird to question your orientation in light of your disjointed feelings and the labels you've been handed... I'm a highly androgenous female who's intensely attracted to one male; I think chicks are hot but I'm not "interested" in that, and I could care less about doing it in real life most of the time; and when the opportunity arises, I freeze because I can't figure out the other person's ideas... woah, major rabbit trail there!

All that to say... RELAX, you're normal!

Hey, you could always be like me and try "brain sex" over e-mail! ;;



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03 Jun 2013, 9:23 am

You can always do what my old roomate did. He was the trifecta of social awkwardness (gay, obese, autistic) and basically retreated from the human race as opposed to trying and dating normally. He became a furry and would dress up in a blue wolf costume and have sex with other people dressed in animal costumes. He gets laid far more than I do and doesn't even have to show his real face half the time.

Just go on "rule 34" and find your kink......... :wink: