Why is chivalry good for anyone?

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Thelibrarian
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03 Jun 2013, 10:49 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Several points on chivalry:

Chivalry comes from the same source as romantic love, which began in the Middle Ages, and allowed young women to choose their husbands. This is something which made the West unique; arranged marriages were the rule everywhere else, and are still the rule in some parts of the world. Women being allowed to choose their spouses meant that women were seen as individuals, rather than as pieces of property to be bought and sold, and with absolutely no control over their own destiny.



European women in the Middle Ages had the choice to choose their husbands? Are you sure you're not confusing it with the modern age? lol

Chivalry originated from European knighthood, true that, but it's not the only origin: Eastern cultures (Arab knights, Samurai) had their own code of Chivalry.

From wiki:
Quote:
Their ideas of chivalry were also further influenced by Saladin, who was viewed as a chivalrous knight by medieval Christian writers. The military orders of the crusades which developed in this period came to be seen as the earliest flowering of chivalry,[11] although it remain unclear to what extent the notable knights of this period, Saladin, Godfrey of Bouillon, William Marshal orBertrand du Guesclin, actually did set new standards of knightly behaviour, or to what extent they merelybehaved according to existing models of conduct which came in retrospect to be interpreted along the lines of the "chivalry" ideal of the Late Middle Ages.[8]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry#O ... tary_ethos


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtly_lo ... _influence


Actually, the right of a woman to choose her husband was characteristic of both Medieval and Modern times. According to Gregory Clark's "A Farewell of Alms", this right was legally recognized by the 14C in most parts of Europe.

Facts are facts, and if Saladin had a hand in the development of chivalry and romantic love, that's the way it is. But this is hardly the rule even today. Forced, arranged marriages for women are STILL the rule in many parts of the Mideast, and this practice routinely causes scandal by Muslims living in western Europe.



Thelibrarian
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03 Jun 2013, 10:57 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
If a man runs for his live without protecting the woman he would be called a coward for the rest of his life, mostly by women.

If a man acts chivalrously and risks his life to protect the woman, he would be called misogynist, mostly by women.

Men can never win :lol:.


Boo, I live in Texas, consider myself to be somewhat chivalrous, and I've found most women appreciate gentlemanly conduct. Those who don't are women I really don't care to know.

For example: When with a decent woman in a romantic situation, walk around and open her car door and watch her reaction. Even better yet, kiss her hand and watch her reaction (in appropriate circumstances, of course!). Kissing a decent woman's hand, under appropriate circumstances, is the quickest way I know to bring a sincere smile to her face. Like men, decent women do like being appreciated and respected. Chivalry is merely the codification of appreciation and respect.



Ann2011
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03 Jun 2013, 11:06 am

Thelibrarian wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
If a man runs for his live without protecting the woman he would be called a coward for the rest of his life, mostly by women.

If a man acts chivalrously and risks his life to protect the woman, he would be called misogynist, mostly by women.

Men can never win :lol:.


Boo, I live in Texas, consider myself to be somewhat chivalrous, and I've found most women appreciate gentlemanly conduct. Those who don't are women I really don't care to know.

For example: When with a decent woman in a romantic situation, walk around and open her car door and watch her reaction. Even better yet, kiss her hand and watch her reaction (in appropriate circumstances, of course!). Kissing a decent woman's hand, under appropriate circumstances, is the quickest way I know to bring a sincere smile to her face. Like men, decent women do like being appreciated and respected. Chivalry is merely the codification of appreciation and respect.

This is so dependent on the situation though. Even on a date, I prefer to open my own car door (I don't like a fuss of things; and I'm usually the one driving.) And kissing my hand . . . that would make me feel awkward. I don't like to be put on a pedestal; it's too easy to fall off.



Thelibrarian
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03 Jun 2013, 11:31 am

Ann2011 wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
If a man runs for his live without protecting the woman he would be called a coward for the rest of his life, mostly by women.

If a man acts chivalrously and risks his life to protect the woman, he would be called misogynist, mostly by women.

Men can never win :lol:.


Boo, I live in Texas, consider myself to be somewhat chivalrous, and I've found most women appreciate gentlemanly conduct. Those who don't are women I really don't care to know.

For example: When with a decent woman in a romantic situation, walk around and open her car door and watch her reaction. Even better yet, kiss her hand and watch her reaction (in appropriate circumstances, of course!). Kissing a decent woman's hand, under appropriate circumstances, is the quickest way I know to bring a sincere smile to her face. Like men, decent women do like being appreciated and respected. Chivalry is merely the codification of appreciation and respect.

This is so dependent on the situation though. Even on a date, I prefer to open my own car door (I don't like a fuss of things; and I'm usually the one driving.) And kissing my hand . . . that would make me feel awkward. I don't like to be put on a pedestal; it's too easy to fall off.


Ann, a hypothetical: IF we were on a date together, or in a relationship, would you not want me to show you that you are appreciated and respected, even if you are not perfect? This is what I'm talking about. I'm not sure what you mean by "being put on a pedestal". Perhaps you could explain what you mean to me.



Ann2011
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03 Jun 2013, 11:55 am

Thelibrarian wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
If a man runs for his live without protecting the woman he would be called a coward for the rest of his life, mostly by women.

If a man acts chivalrously and risks his life to protect the woman, he would be called misogynist, mostly by women.

Men can never win :lol:.


Boo, I live in Texas, consider myself to be somewhat chivalrous, and I've found most women appreciate gentlemanly conduct. Those who don't are women I really don't care to know.

For example: When with a decent woman in a romantic situation, walk around and open her car door and watch her reaction. Even better yet, kiss her hand and watch her reaction (in appropriate circumstances, of course!). Kissing a decent woman's hand, under appropriate circumstances, is the quickest way I know to bring a sincere smile to her face. Like men, decent women do like being appreciated and respected. Chivalry is merely the codification of appreciation and respect.

This is so dependent on the situation though. Even on a date, I prefer to open my own car door (I don't like a fuss of things; and I'm usually the one driving.) And kissing my hand . . . that would make me feel awkward. I don't like to be put on a pedestal; it's too easy to fall off.


Ann, a hypothetical: IF we were on a date together, or in a relationship, would you not want me to show you that you are appreciated and respected, even if you are not perfect? This is what I'm talking about. I'm not sure what you mean by "being put on a pedestal". Perhaps you could explain what you mean to me.

Appreciation and respect is not about gestures like that. For example, if I was carrying a bag that was too heavy for me, I would appreciate help from someone able to give it. But for someone to offer to take a bag that was not presenting a problem would be condescending. It's a sticky wicket - and how do you know if someone has reached the point of needing help? I don't know. I've offered to help people who are in wheel chairs and sometimes they are irritated and sometimes not. So in any situation I would say help should be offered if it seems to be necessary.

I think this is where the pedestal comes in. If I accept things like car door opening and hand kisses, I am agreeing that I am somehow in need of something that I'm not. And that by accepting this I'm entering into a deal where I pretend things that aren't true, are. I don't know why I would want to do that.



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03 Jun 2013, 12:04 pm

It’d be a good way to eliminate suitors who are ill at ease doing that or never quite learned all those complex rules.


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Thelibrarian
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03 Jun 2013, 12:11 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
If a man runs for his live without protecting the woman he would be called a coward for the rest of his life, mostly by women.

If a man acts chivalrously and risks his life to protect the woman, he would be called misogynist, mostly by women.

Men can never win :lol:.


Boo, I live in Texas, consider myself to be somewhat chivalrous, and I've found most women appreciate gentlemanly conduct. Those who don't are women I really don't care to know.

For example: When with a decent woman in a romantic situation, walk around and open her car door and watch her reaction. Even better yet, kiss her hand and watch her reaction (in appropriate circumstances, of course!). Kissing a decent woman's hand, under appropriate circumstances, is the quickest way I know to bring a sincere smile to her face. Like men, decent women do like being appreciated and respected. Chivalry is merely the codification of appreciation and respect.

This is so dependent on the situation though. Even on a date, I prefer to open my own car door (I don't like a fuss of things; and I'm usually the one driving.) And kissing my hand . . . that would make me feel awkward. I don't like to be put on a pedestal; it's too easy to fall off.


Ann, a hypothetical: IF we were on a date together, or in a relationship, would you not want me to show you that you are appreciated and respected, even if you are not perfect? This is what I'm talking about. I'm not sure what you mean by "being put on a pedestal". Perhaps you could explain what you mean to me.

Appreciation and respect is not about gestures like that. For example, if I was carrying a bag that was too heavy for me, I would appreciate help from someone able to give it. But for someone to offer to take a bag that was not presenting a problem would be condescending. It's a sticky wicket - and how do you know if someone has reached the point of needing help? I don't know. I've offered to help people who are in wheel chairs and sometimes they are irritated and sometimes not. So in any situation I would say help should be offered if it seems to be necessary.

I think this is where the pedestal comes in. If I accept things like car door opening and hand kisses, I am agreeing that I am somehow in need of something that I'm not. And that by accepting this I'm entering into a deal where I pretend things that aren't true, are. I don't know why I would want to do that.


Ann, how about if I acknowledge that you are fully capable of opening your own door or kissing your own hand? How about if I were to do such things to show that you are respected and appreciated? And since these things would be a sincere gesture of my respect and appreciation for you, how would they be not true or pretend?

Chivalry is also about protecting women in perilous situations, even at grave risk to my own person. Would you object to this as well?

Chivalry for me isn't just about how I view a woman, but how I view myself. As a Texan, I consider myself a gentleman, and as such, I appreciate a woman who considers herself to be a lady.



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03 Jun 2013, 12:15 pm

I don't think I'm really comfortable with the concept of chivalry. This is one area where I have a defect in my innate theory-of-mind. My fist instinct is to assume people are like me, so I can't wrap my head around the idea that someone can actually like being treated in a manner that would be patronizing to me if I were in their shoes. I'm much more comfortable with things being on an equal footing. I don't act/talk down to others and they don't act/talk down to me. Traditional chivalry seems to cross beyond caring and politeness into the territory of being patronizing.

I think it might be okay for lower functioning AS/HFA men to be more chivalrous because they have a more of an air of innocence that makes it more endearing and less insulting. They also might be more comfortable having rules to follow instead of having to improvise their behavior. In general it's complicated. Whether chivalry is appropriate or demeaning really depends on the nature of the people involved and the relationship itself.



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03 Jun 2013, 12:28 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
It’d be a good way to eliminate suitors who are ill at ease doing that or never quite learned all those complex rules.


Spiderpig, I will respectfully disagree with you. The reason unwritten social rules are so baffling to people like us is that they are something normal people acquire naturally and with ease. Chivalry is definitely a consciously learned behavior, and hence something we can learn fairly easily. With chivalry, the rules ARE clearly known.



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03 Jun 2013, 12:35 pm

marshall wrote:
I don't think I'm really comfortable with the concept of chivalry. This is one area where I have a defect in my innate theory-of-mind. My fist instinct is to assume people are like me, so I can't wrap my head around the idea that someone can actually like being treated in a manner that would be patronizing to me if I were in their shoes. I'm much more comfortable with things being on an equal footing. I don't act/talk down to others and they don't act/talk down to me. Traditional chivalry seems to cross beyond caring and politeness into the territory of being patronizing.

I think it might be okay for lower functioning AS/HFA men to be more chivalrous because they have a more of an air of innocence that makes it more endearing and less insulting. They also might be more comfortable having rules to follow instead of having to improvise their behavior. In general it's complicated. Whether chivalry is appropriate or demeaning really depends on the nature of the people involved and the relationship itself.


Perhaps you can explain to me why showing women that you respect and appreciate them is patronizing, or talking down to them. It seems to me that showing a woman that you respect and appreciate her are the opposites of talking down to her or patronizing her.

I do agree with you that chivalry is a learned behavior. But as such, it should appeal to aspies for whom social rules that come naturally to others are very difficult. And I say this as an aspie who holds a job and has done reasonably well for himself.

Convince me that you're right and I'm wrong, and I will be on your side on this issue.



Ann2011
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03 Jun 2013, 12:35 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
Ann, how about if I acknowledge that you are fully capable of opening your own door or kissing your own hand? How about if I were to do such things to show that you are respected and appreciated? And since these things would be a sincere gesture of my respect and appreciation for you, how would they be not true or pretend?

Well the hand kissing would be very intimate and I would assume that it was a first move towards sex. So depending on how I felt about you that could be either good or bad. :wink:

Door opening . . . I just can't get my head around how this is respectful. Although, I would never be rude to a person who did this; only puzzled. To me, it impedes the progress of getting into the car and getting going. I don't like to linger in parking lots or roadways - too much traffic.

Quote:
Chivalry is also about protecting women in perilous situations, even at grave risk to my own person. Would you object to this as well?

Not at all, and I would do the same myself.

Quote:
Chivalry for me isn't just about how I view a woman, but how I view myself. As a Texan, I consider myself a gentleman, and as such, I appreciate a woman who considers herself to be a lady.

This must be a cultural thing that I am not familiar with.



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03 Jun 2013, 1:01 pm

"Well the hand kissing would be very intimate and I would assume that it was a first move towards sex. So depending on how I felt about you that could be either good or bad. Wink"

Ann, you are right that kissing a woman's hand is kind of risky for an aspie as it will backfire when not appropriate. I think a good rule of thumb is that if you know a woman well enough to have an affectionate name for her (honey, dear, sweetie, beautiful, etc.), then a kiss on the hand would be appropriate as well. It would be appropriate in romantic situations.

"Door opening . . . I just can't get my head around how this is respectful. Although, I would never be rude to a person who did this; only puzzled. To me, it impedes the progress of getting into the car and getting going. I don't like to linger in parking lots or roadways - too much traffic."

I see your point that opening a car door for a woman as a sign of respect is arbitrary. Then, most cultural customs are. Again, a hypothetical: If we were romantically involved, would you be similarly puzzled if I sent you flowers, particularly after a memorable time together? Or a nice card on your birthday? If you think about it, I'm sure you will agree that both of these cultural customs are arbitrary as well. They are totally arbitrary gestures of affection, appreciation, respect, etc.

It's a bit much to explain here, but these differences are cultural. Because of historical circumstances, Texans and other Southerners have been less accepting of modern liberal values than most other Western groups. BTW, the study of such things is part of my special interest, and I will further explain if you so request. But be careful of what you ask for; I can likely tell you more about such things than you would ever want to know :wink:



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03 Jun 2013, 1:13 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
marshall wrote:
I don't think I'm really comfortable with the concept of chivalry. This is one area where I have a defect in my innate theory-of-mind. My fist instinct is to assume people are like me, so I can't wrap my head around the idea that someone can actually like being treated in a manner that would be patronizing to me if I were in their shoes. I'm much more comfortable with things being on an equal footing. I don't act/talk down to others and they don't act/talk down to me. Traditional chivalry seems to cross beyond caring and politeness into the territory of being patronizing.

I think it might be okay for lower functioning AS/HFA men to be more chivalrous because they have a more of an air of innocence that makes it more endearing and less insulting. They also might be more comfortable having rules to follow instead of having to improvise their behavior. In general it's complicated. Whether chivalry is appropriate or demeaning really depends on the nature of the people involved and the relationship itself.


Perhaps you can explain to me why showing women that you respect and appreciate them is patronizing, or talking down to them. It seems to me that showing a woman that you respect and appreciate her are the opposites of talking down to her or patronizing her.

I do agree with you that chivalry is a learned behavior. But as such, it should appeal to aspies for whom social rules that come naturally to others are very difficult. And I say this as an aspie who holds a job and has done reasonably well for himself.

Convince me that you're right and I'm wrong, and I will be on your side on this issue.


Gratuitous displays of chivalry in public comes off as douchebag behavior to me. It seems like it's more about showing off than genuine appreciation or respect. It's like saying "this person is MINE". I have no problem if it's genuine caring and a private intimate thing. But if a woman doesn't like it done in public she shouldn't be forced to.



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03 Jun 2013, 1:17 pm

A friend of mine described me Texas as The US' Middle East (referring how conservative and traditional people there are).
Funny, I imagine Middle Easterns aren't much liked there.



Thelibrarian
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03 Jun 2013, 1:25 pm

We agree on showing too much affection in public places; I find it very offensive. Nor should anything be done to a woman that is not appreciated. But gentlemanly conduct, such as holding a door open for a woman, or anybody else, hardly constitutes an unduly display of public affection.

I was in college in the early nineties working on my graduate degree. Once when a male friend and I were going into the school building, he held the door open for a woman behind us. She said in a rather snotty, imperious tone something to the effect of, "I hope you're not holding this door because you think I'm a lady". He replied back that no, he was holding the door for her because he's a gentleman. The same goes for me. Chivalry is more a reflection on who the man is than who the woman is.



Last edited by Thelibrarian on 03 Jun 2013, 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thelibrarian
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03 Jun 2013, 1:27 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
A friend of mine described me Texas as The US' Middle East (referring how conservative and traditional people there are).
Funny, I imagine Middle Easterns aren't much liked there.


Do you agree with the statements you made? And do you consider yourself tolerant of cultures different from your own?