Financial stability questions

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Well -- I honestly wouldn't recommend it, is what. I mean I've had guys insist I drop what I was doing and that they would provide, etc. But that's not smart for me, and it's really not smart for them, either. Elizabeth Warren got her public start explaining why, and there's nothing polemical in what she wrote back then; it's just household economics and ordinary-people realities.

To support a household in non-coastal America, you're looking at maybe $50K/yr if you're living a modest middle-class life, maybe $70K if you've got a couple kids and you want them to have nice things, but they're going to public school. That's over/above whatever you're carrying for non-mortgage debt, including school debt, credit cards, auto loans, HELOCs. So if you've got a decent professional job, it's doable. You'll still be careful about your spending, but you can do it.

The problem with being the shining hero who supports the spouse is that illness and disability are actually pretty common, and the social safety net for the families of breadwinners who fall ill in the US is weak to nonexistent. You really need two adults capable of earning. The job market is also weak enough that if someone's unemployed for a few years, the odds of walking back in at anything above minimum wage are not good at all. So both partners actually need to keep up the resumes and the skills.

That problem's compounded if there are children involved, because trying to get back into a reasonable job while looking after a sick spouse *and* children is...well, some manage it, but good luck. Obamacare will help some with the medical bills now, but you're still in a bad position financially if your sole-breadwinner can't work. There's also the college problem: even sending a kid to a state university now costs about $100K for four years. If you don't want your children walking out of school with debt millstones around their necks, you need savings. Substantial savings.

You're also in bad shape if the marriage goes sour. I've seen so many women wind up in a terrible spot after relying on a guy who turned out to be just awful, who left them high/dry with a bunch of kids and no recent work history. If you're a mom, you really, really need to be able to support those kids if necessary. Letting go of your resume is not a way to make that happen.

Bottom line: this idea of "I'm going to sweep a woman off her feet and support her" is chivalric and romantic in a musty-bookstore kind of way, but it's got little to do with how things work now. Man or woman, you want someone strong by your side, and it's best if that person can make money when necessary.

Also, goldfish, it seems to me that men who're all "what will women want" spend an awful lot of time fretting about their cars and what women will think of them. I think the cars mean much more to the guys than they do to women. What tends to matter to women who're looking for longterm partners or marriage is what the man is like. Is he nice, is he respectful, does he treat people well, does he get mean, is he high-maintenance, is he happy/positive, is he attractive sexually *to her*, is he energetic/hardworking, does she feel good around him, that sort of thing.

When married women friends talk to me about their husbands, the money problems tend to take two forms:

1. He's a spendthrift who can't bear to deal with actual bills, but also has a lot of ego wrapped up in money issues and won't even let her know what the full extent of the bills/income situation is so she can manage it;

2. He's insanely tight, terrified of spending money, will spend five bucks to save a nickel. (I know one woman whose husband refused to spend the money to come home weekly from a remote jobsite; lived in a company trailer and ate cauliflower, would not give her enough money for the kids' clothes. His kids wound up hating him for it for several years. She eventually up and became a professor, made the money herself, refused to share it with him. They're doing okay now, decades later, but it caused serious trouble between them. He really didn't see what kind of damage he was doing with the mania for the savings account.)

Either way, what frustrated them and gets between them and their husbands is control/hiding issues to do with money. If the guy insists on being in control, and won't be open with info, there's going to be trouble.

Cars really mean almost nothing.

not here it seems. its do they have a job and car. then compare those guys with a job and car according to how they are like.
I didn't care about having a car until i got turned down by women and read ad after ad after ad about having to have a car.

I mean now having a car I wouldnt want to go back but before I didn't mind riding the bus.

I think that Tarantella was referring to was fancy, expensive cars.

Thanks.

right, sorry, sly, I think what those women are saying is that they don't want to be some guy's personal chauffeur.

Most guys have absolutely zero problem to be their gfs/wife's personal chauffeur, but when it's the opposite the woman usually complains about it.

Heck, after all when couples are together in the same car it' the man who drives in 99% of cases - and don't tell me it's not the case in the US, because it is.

The usual trend when the woman is the usual driver that she is semi-ok at first then she starts complaining about why her man doesn't drive or buy a car, and later she stars seeing it as a disadvantage in him.

Not my experience or my friends'. And no, husbands don't act as personal chauffeurs in the US. People don't have time for this. Most adults in America have their own cars because they have to: it's how they get to work, and outside a few cities it's not unusual for husband and wife to work 20 miles apart or more. It's a big country and the average work commute is close to an hour now, one-way, not counting dropping off kids at school or daycare. I used to drive 45 min to a minimum-wage job. (Come to think of it, my bf at the time didn't have a car. And he did want me to drive him around, and after a while I just told him no, that he could walk or take buses. He got really pissy at me about that, too, like I'd done something horrible to him. I'd forgotten. That was unpleasant. Had to throw him out eventually.)

People don't usually have a problem with driving the other person someplace sometimes. If one partner can't drive, though, or doesn't have a car, the entire burden of driving's on the other. My guess is that that's what those women don't want. It's a different story in major cities where there's decent public transportation -- if you're out in the sticks somewhere, I can understand why someone wouldn't be too keen on dating the carless.

Regardless of the everyday work life, because this is the case everywhere. It is rarely possible to be on the same way.

But when a couple are in this same car, going to dinner or to do something together, what gender usually drives there? Because from what I read (from feminist articles regarding benevolent sexism), it's usually the men, even there.

Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 24 Jun 2014, 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

I am sure the typical wife here will be very furious if her man tells her that.

Oh, depends on the couple. I don't know what the young people do, but guys my age (kind of) and older guys (much more) tend to see it as emasculating to be driven around by a woman and will seize the driver's seat. Older guys will sometimes get mad if the woman insists on their taking her car because he doesn't like driving it and doesn't want her to drive. For a while I used to hear complaints about having to hold the woman's handbag while she drove, but that sounds really old-fashioned now.

Good question really. As I think about it I realize I don't too often see couples together in a car unless they're low-income. But I'm out in familyland and everyone's overscheduled, so even when couples are going someplace together they'll often just meet there, take separate cars.

I'm trying to think of instances where the woman would be insulted if the guy didn't drive her, wanted to take her car and have her do the driving...nothing really registers there. Women around here tend to really like their cars.

eta: and now that I actually have a good car, I understand why. It's GREAT, driving around. Holy crap. I had the best time coming home from work today.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... him-or-her

That's it, to achieve equality of driving, you should make men drunk.






So the problem isn't just that the men would feel emasculated, tarantella.

Obviously. That's why I said I'd take into consideration where people lived and what their age was etc. It's also interesting to read many different peoples' perspectives on the issue. It shows what people value, as well as what sort of income/quality of life they are accustomed to and expect out of life. I find that stuff interesting.



All good baseline criteria here, IMO.



Not a family. Another person. And not to spoil someone like that, no. A lot more closer to covering the essential bills than luxury shopping. But still, should this sort of living arrangement ever happen in my life I don't want to just be able to cover the bills. So, something more than that at least, but not extravagant. Again, I know, "essential," bills are relative. So is extravagance. My lifestyle is extravagant beyond belief to starvin' marvin in ethiopa, but it's poor as F to the Sultan of Brunei.



It'd be nice to be 50/50, too. But if I'm capable of earning more in order to take care of someone I love, then I'd be ok with being the breadwinner. It's not about being a walking wallet. It's not even about the money, really. Money isn't just financial currency. It's power. It's the currency of social success. It's hard work. It represents a lot of qualities in a person. The way they are, the things they're capable of, the process of obtaining wealth. It's not just about money. It's about being the type of person that can attract money into their life. It's all the things that make someone capable of earning more money that make them more attractive vs. the money itself. Then the prize of being able to pick the best and most sought after partner from the group becomes the reward for being able to do and be all of the things required to accumulate financial wealth.

The guy I'd be with if I could isn't all about money or earning the most they can. He'd rather spend his time working jobs he enjoys vs. just for money in order to earn enough money to do the things he values. I don't know for sure what his ideals are entirely, but I imagine he'd like to be able to just carry on working away at jobs and entrepreneurial gigs here and there earning enough to enjoy life w/o having the stress of "paying bills." As nucking futs as it sounds, If I were able to work myself into a financial position where I could easily afford to give him that lifestyle - I would in a heartbeat. Might sound stupid to some, I realize, but I would.



I'm gay. Whether I spend my life with the guy I'd like to or another guy I haven't met yet, we're not going to be making any babies. If we were very well off financially, and we wanted one, I suppose we could go about buying (aka adopting or surrogacy etc) one like other gay couples. But that's not in my current plans. I have a few God kids, their siblings, a nephew, and other kids in my life. I can get all the kid time I want/need w/o having to raise one myself. Not having kids will let me take risks in business, as well as spend time on other things like sports, and in the future more travelling etc.

Yeah, I'd say that's true that appearance tends to be more important in the gay world. I might not bother shaving every day, but I'm not one of those who doesn't look after myself. I'm in fairly good shape (6'2" 195-200lbs around 12% body fat & approaching 6-pack territory this Summer, good teeth etc.) & while I don't care for designer clothing for presentation purposes I did recently buy a new pair of eyeglasses that cost more than my car - and they look pretty good. While I don't care about fancy clothes, especially when I'm going to work doing construction jobs, I do care about presentation.



I know there are women's consignment shops like that around town, but I've never heard of one for men's clothing. I also don't really care. I'm ok with buying work clothes super cheap at thrift stores.



I'm more and more "comfortably out," as a friend of mine puts it. Ie I don't advertise it, but I'm ok with who I am and don't need to conceal it if it's relevant to anything. I'm not really on the feminine side at all. Massages sounds great, though lol. This idea is much more applicable to some friends of mine than myself. Heck, one of them sometimes does spa parties like these for women w/ natural cosmetics that he makes (massage oils, facials etc) when a group of women decide to get pampered. It's cool and all, whatever floats your boat, but not exactly my style.

well thats stupid of them to assume.

we have one of the best bus systems in the nation, we spend billions to make it better far more then we need. it could probably support the city of portland. they say it is getting ready for when we become that size, but we haven't really grown. I think they just like the awards they get from the feds. alot of people ride bikes here. eugene the connected city is a big green, hippy, pro enviroment, liberal city. which is why we have the bus system, bikes, hybrids, electric cars, and free charging stations.

Why is it they expect me to chauffeur them around?
maybe thats why they demand a guy have a car.

I'm gay. There won't be any kids.
I live where it's insanely expensive, in the suburbs of Vancouver, BC, Canada.
So, I know a higher income is required to live comfortably.
Also, none of your USA specific advice applies.
And a car is a transportation appliance to me at the moment. I paid $700 for my car and a couple hundred bucks to repair a few things myself. I just hope it doesn't make too bad an impression for the time being. Eventually I'll buy a work truck that looks decent once I need one.



Oh, I wouldn't want someone weak. Whether my crush or someone else. But as I described in a previous post above, I'd like to be able to support someone else if I can manage it for several reasons.