Amount of effort required for men to be appealing

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Ooooooh, a checklist!

-Deodorant - check.

-Shaving beard hair - nope; I trim above my lip and sometimes will trim it to length, but right now I'm growing it out for awhile! The longest I went without shaving was a little over a year. I honestly feel naked without some form of facial hair.

-Leg hair if you're an athlete - Not a hope in **** would I consider doing this!

-Pubic hair as some women may not like it. - On request, lol.

- Comb your head hair. - Err...most of the time I keep it shaved short (1/16" - 1/8"), but when it's longer I'll comb it; presently growing it a bit longer to see what happens. It's a bit thin in the back (Curse you, genetics! )

- Wear good clothes - Well, with the exception of my work stuff, they are clean and free of burn holes, lol. I usually wear a button up short sleeved shirt of some form and either shorts in the summer or some form of denim in the winter.

- Work-out - I bike, ski and fence.

- Eat healthy - I eat mostly healthy.

- Cologne - Nope.

- Toothbrush - Yup.

- Mouthwash/mint - Yup.

Thank you. (and Hopper).
This women have it soooooo easy, they just have to be born women has quickly grown beyond tiresome and simply false.

With this one, there's a reason there are all of those jokes with women taking forever to get ready and guys standing there waiting...and waiting...and waiting...

To think that women just wake up and look all put together and fancy, if anything, is a sign of having very little experience being around women and simply believing illusions; because that's all they are..

Fair enough. I don't know all that much about fitness so I hadn't realized that it helped combat the aging process - figured good health alone was enough.

I think they have a lot of overlap. For instance, if one had a really high BMI, by definition, they aren't healthy. And if one is healthy, they are somewhat fit/active..
At the same time, that doesn't mean one has to be burly or go to the gym all the time either. The 'active' part of health can be going for hikes, walking, biking, skiing, etc.. One can never step a foot in a gym, not be able to bench press crazy numbers, and be very much fit And healthy.

Oh yeah I'll do the checklist!

- Wear good clothes : yup
- Eat healthy : yup
- POSSIBLY have to exercise. : yup (Walking is exercise, isn't it?)
- makeup : yup (only when needed to)
- moisturizers : yup
- Shaving a variety of places. : yup
- Deodorant : I don't need one.
- Perfume : I don't like the smell
- Toothbrush : yup
- Mouthwash/mint : yup
- Comb head hair/maintain it. Harder because it's longer. : yup

-Deodorant

Nope. I use basic soap to wash my face, and showergel for my body. Shower every day.

-Shaving beard hair

I tried a beard for a while, with Mrs Hopper's encouragement, but it never really took.

I shave every other day, unless there's some particular reason to keep very smooth. There's just something too damn futile about shaving every day.

-Leg hair if you're an athlete

I am definitely not an athlete. I am quite hairy. Not Robin Williams hairy, but hairy all the same.

-Pubic hair as some women may not like it.

Nope. If a particular request was made, I'd be open to considering a careful trim. But I was too damn excited in my youth to finally get some that it feels a betrayal.

Nor would I want or ask such a thing of any woman.

- Comb your head hair.

I wash (shampoo/conditioner) my hair at least every other day as I don't like the feel of it on my head otherwise.

That and I can't really style it without washing and drying it - though short, it's quite thick and wavey, and when dry neither a comb or brush can do much with it. Had it long for a few years, along with the attempted beard, and though more brushable in that state I usually kept it tied back.

I wear a hat when out and about.

- Wear good clothes

I've always made sure to wear clean clothes. Don't know about 'good'. Never been into labels or fashion.

I used to dress in a 'grunge' manner. Jeans, boots/DMs, t-shirt, plaid shirt, thick jumper.

I presently dress in a vaguely 1920s-1950s style. Smart polished shoes, proper trousers, shirt, waistcoat, tie, homburg, houndstooth jacket or nice long crombie etc coat.

Either way, once I have the clothes, it's easy enough to have a few different set-ups (in terms of colour and cut) that 'work'.

- Work-out

I walk quite a bit. Don't think I've ever worked out for the purpose of working out. I did mountain bike a lot in my younger days, though.

- Eat healthy

Ahahahahahaha. No.

- Cologne

No chance.

- Toothbrush

Yes, though I have been lax at times.

- Mouthwash/mint

Only recently, in recognition of my past laxness and concern for my dental health.

---

ETA: And with this half-hearted approach to presentation and self-care, along with my lack of wealth and prospects and driving license, I have attracted a number of romantic interests including two girlfriends and one wife. I've even - get this - managed to procreate.

Now, I know what you're thinking. 'This man - this studmuffin of a hunky genius - is truly a guru. He is our spiritual leader. Our king!'. Flattered as I am, I must decline. For you see, gentlemen: the bar really is not all that high.

That is pretty much true. BMI really doesn't mean much by itself though. It can't measure muscle mass or body fat percentage. It just compares body weight to height and gender I believe.

It is absolutely not necessary to go to a gym to be healthy and fit. No equipment is necessary. But it's much harder to get a good workout without weights of some kind.

Someone who goes to the gym all the time and only does cardio, or doesn't train properly is not necessarily fit. And eating healthy is really important too.

I go to the gym mainly to do strength training. I can get cardio by doing things outdoors in good weather. But in the winter, forget it. I hate the winter.

So maybe that is the problem---wanting to please shallow men and to follow the dictates of the media. You certainly wouldn't need to do half the work you're implying to look attractive to me, but, of course, being attractive to the likes of me is something women take for granted and don't feel particularly good about. Perhaps what happens is that, for women, merely being attractive is not enough---you need to outshine all other women around so the few men you can actually be interested in decide to approach you, rather than them.

Women in the Paleolithic didn't have the time or the resources to do basically anything in that list (nor did they usually live to be old enough to worry about how to look artificially young) and they still mated and reproduced. Modern female attractiveness is probably a superstimulus---you didn't find it nearly so strong in the state of nature, but women were attractive enough for men to like them anyway.

Hmm...I'm not really sure why women go to all that trouble to look good but I certainly don't.

I hate most makeup; I can feel it on my skin. I have never gotten my nails done. I don't pay to get my hair cut, dyed, or styled. I don't wear perfume. I don't wear heels. I hate wearing dresses or skirts. I rarely wear jewelry.

I take very good care of myself otherwise. I like to look good, but I don't like to look fake. Layers of makeup, fake nails, fake tans, fake hair, and so many of the things that other women do look awful, in my opinion. Perfume is too strong-smelling, and dresses, skirts, and heels are uncomfortable. On occasion I will dress up, however.

If fake is what some men want, I don't care: I'm not going to do it

You're not alone in that. Nor, indeed, would a man need to do any number of things to be attractive to most women. The basic adult competencies and well presented are quite fine. And even they are up for debate.

What we have here, as you touch on, is media representation, and indeed capitalism. There's money to be made in making people feel bad about themselves and then selling them the cure.



Sigh.



That would make sperm 'expensive', rather than eggs.

Of course, this doesn't bear out in the real world, either.

People who are 'unattractive' in the 'evolutionary/sex selection' sense and the 'cultural norms' or 'media' sense have sex and procreate all the time. They may even make up the majority of couples.

If sex selection explains everything in the realm of coupledom, you need to change your concept of it so it allows that it operated on such people, as it operates on everyone. From the way you talk at the moment, it sounds as though you think sex selection works on maybe 10% of the population, and everyone else, every other couple, is an anomaly. Which is very silly. I'm telling you, that's what happens when you start from the top down.

If it doesn't explain everything, and other factors are at play, you need to change your concept of it to allow it to be a weaker force than you think and, as it's a universal constant, you'd be better off considering the other factors.

As happens a lot, especially around here, you've taken 1) you'd shag pretty much any woman (though that's not the same as absolutely any woman, and I'd wager your standards are more stringent than you might think) and 2) no woman has yet gone to bed with you, and you've projected these into The State Of Affairs.



Jesus.

I like a few very stylised looks - goth, femme fatale - but that's an aesthetic, 'dress up', almost cosplay thing, not a necessity. If we were then going to get, uh, 'intimate', I'd need the woman to clean up, maybe even have a shower or something. Day-to-day, I like an unfussy look ('plain' has too much of the pejorative to it), edging into tomboy.

(Though I just googled 'tomboy', and apparently it's a proper look in itself now, which kind of defeats the point. Oh well)

I think it's a sensory issue much as anything else - I don't like the feel (or smell) of make-up under my touch, don't like hair that doesn't feel or give like hair. Fragrance beyond a lightly perfumed soap/showergel/shampoo is choking. Jewellery is scratchy and pokey. Heels seem comical to me, as ludicrous as platforms or mini-stilts.

Your premise is rather daft

The expectations on woman to appear and act a certain way are on another level. Your value as a woman is almost linear to how you meet a set of criterions that for the most part are in the realm of impossible.

You pretty much won the lottery if you were born a man, white , and in the western world. You have every advantage and priviledge afforded to most people.

It sucks. For others.

The effort is required less in looks and more in getting a good job, car, social networking, things that improve your status among peers. What are you bringing to the table is basically the question, I could spend the next couple months doing crunches and dieting but I'm pretty sure I'd be in the same situation but just look better with my clothes off which which would be nice for self esteem but I don't think a washboard stomach would so change my fortunes.

^THIS!! I do all of that crap. AND, women also have to color their hair when they start getting grays - men can just leave it alone. Btw, coloring would make you all look younger so you may want to add coloring your hair to your manly to do list.
And don't forget all of the cosmetic surgery women get. I'd like to get a boob job, but I'm too scared, but other women aren't scared and they are my competition and most people in general think women look best with some boobs. AND, we have to wear high heels - try that one on for size! Womens shoes suck for foot support.
When men exercise all they really have to do is lift weights - women have to do weights and cardio and our diet of calorie intake is a lot less than men . It takes longer and more work for women to lose weight. So quit your bitching.

It is what they want. Men also go for the youngest women that they can find - that's why women are forced to do all of the crap they do - so they can stay looking as young as they can.

You know my problem (after spending a little time on Match) is that the men that I should be dating around my age look used up - wrinkles and gray hair. Even if they have money, so what? I can make my own money. Because I do all of the things I listed above, I look 10 or more years younger. Why would I want to date someone that has wrinkles and gray hair? I just ran into a woman at work this last weekend that I hadn't seen in 12 yrs and she remembered me but I didn't remember her. I asked her how did she remember me after 12 yrs and she said it's because I look the exact same as I did back then! I guess everything I'm doing must be working.