How can I ask a girl out in a public place?

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Now you are mixing things up. You can want to use your natural courtship preferences even if you also want to be part of society. These are not related (mainly because you don't need a social trophy gf to participate in society).



You can decide to use NTs reciprocity with friends and acquaintances but refuse to use it for relationships. Just because NTs use the same type of reciprocity in social settings and relationships, doesn't mean NDs need to. We can separate those domains without any bad effects.



Truth is, I don't want a relationship like that, and I don't believe in monogamy or exclusiveness. I only want a relationship with a compatible girl(s) I can naturally get along with, and I absolutely require that I once had a crush on her that was transformed into a strong attachment. I'd rather be single than being in an NT-type relationship built on NT-type reciprocity.

Ummmm, ok? The aspies I've encountered here in L&D mostly have exclusive, monogamous relationships as a goal. I don't concern myself with the complexities of other kinds of relational dynamics. And since aspie populations are predominantly male, finding a like match moos is, well, unlikely in the extreme. If you are unwilling to understand and work with NT dynamics, you're doomed to failure.

Look, I talk funny, I walk funny, and occasionally have a slight odor I'm taking meds for (ok, just kidding about that one). Just a few developmental delays. I'm really a nice guy once you give me a chance, so why not let me buy you lunch? That's the message I want to get out there, that I'm not all bad, just a little different. Married to my best friend and 3 kids the paternity test confirms are all mine says I've succeeded. If that's where you want to go in your relationship, I have plenty of advice and help to offer. Anything else is beyond my scope.

Reciprocity is a univeral principle. There's no special NT or ND version of it any more than you could apply situational ethics to the law of gravity. Everyone desires to feel important and will seek out people or things that will make them feel important. NTs will often fulfill this desire by meeting the same desire in others in hopes of having the favor returned, often to the exclusion of their own instant gratification. Aspies frequently miss this and focus on self-gratification to the exclusion of everyone else and their interests. No one who understands reciprocity and practices it consistently will be denied, and whether one is aspie or nt matters not.

Practice this with the richest billionaire or the lowliest homeless person, it doesn't matter--they will be yours. Wealthy people are more adept at it because 1) people know they can be trusted with money, and 2) they are generous with their money. People flock to these guys. And you don't have to be rich or even NT to take advantage of that. Mainly all you have to do is just listen to people without saying a word.

I don't think so. I've already succeeded with it. And it was not with NTs.



Same here. I have 3 kids too. I'm not married to my best friend though, I'm married to their mother.



Reciprocity, yes. Conditional reciprocity, no. NTs are practising conditional reciprocity, but many NDs (especially in relationships), practise unconditional reciprocity. Personally, I find unconditional love a lot more appealing than conditional, and I don't even want to be in a relationship where reciprocity is conditional. It's extremely off-putting.



Uhmm, no. I hate it when people say I'm important. I hate it even more when a women does it. To me, that means she has a hidden agenda and want something in return.



No, Aspies frequently do this without expecting anything in return, get exploited because of it by NTs, and then stop it altogether once they realise they have been exploited. So, the above is all wrong. However, they can do it with an ND partner without any risk of being exploited or used.

Asking out female strangers is out of the question, guys, don't be fools.

Or you can do like this guy (probably staged, I dunno)

Asking out, certainly, but not getting their attention and eventually getting into a relationship with them. It works. It has to, otherwise, the human species wouldn't have survived.

I just caught you lying! And you're a hypocrite, too. I didn't say anything about people "saying" you're important. I said you want people to make you feel important. I don't know if you've figured it out yet, but I've been using that technique all along to manipulate you into responding to my posts.

Sure about that?

I only care about debunking dating and the use of NT relationship preferences for NDs. That's my goal. I don't care if that makes me important or not. It's my special interest, which I pursue because it is my special interest, not because it could make me important. Actually, I do my best to inflate my ideas with things that many people find strange, like the Neanderthal aspect, just to make sure I can stay out of fame.

I didn't say it made you important. I said it makes you feel important.

No difference to me. I don't understand that NT-stuff anyway.

Has nothing to do with NT/ND. It's human nature.

Apparently, there is a lot of stuff you want to assign to "human nature" that is only relevant for NTs. Previously, you have claimed that a lot of NT relationship traits are "human nature" too. Perhaps you can provide proof that any of this is "human nature"?

Actually, I see all the social adaptations that NDs have problems with as "NT only" and not as "human nature". Many of us learn to navigate the social world of NTs, but not all of us will accept it as "human nature". After all, I have no natural friendship traits, I have no natural conditional reciprocity (tit-for-tat), I do not desire to turn friendships into relationships. For me, most friendships can better be viewed as "polyamory light". My "timeouts" with potential romantic partners are many times longer than NTs, so the 2-6 weeks you talked about earlier is not "human nature" either.

Most importantly, I have no desire whatsoever to mimic NTs outside of professional (work) contexts, and that means I won't get any NT-type friends, and certainly not any NT-type relationships.

I didn't say those things were human nature. I said selfishness is human nature. And that universally applies whether NT or ND. We are ALL driven by a personal desire for sexual gratification. Since there are limits on directly realizing that desire, we look for other ways of achieving it. Aspies have special interests that serve that purpose.

A man or woman who stimulates a partner exercises power over that person's body, controlling them while possibly achieving climax themselves. In a similar way, when you smile at someone and he or she smiles back, you have bent that person to your will. You will enjoy a certain amount of satisfaction from that because wielding power over someone makes you feel important.

That makes you greedy and selfish. And manipulative.

That's human nature. Do Christians follow Jesus for goodness' sake? No, we follow Jesus to escape eternal torment in hell. Everyone is out for #1. I don't care what spectrum you're on, this universally applies to all human beings.

Reciprocity is a means of achieving those desires on a grander scale by connecting with like-minded people.

Jesus' formulation is obviously my favorite. He said that we, who are evil, know how to do good things for our own children when they ask. So how much more does God, who is GOOD, provide for us when we ask Him? THEREFORE, do for others as you would have them do for you.

In other words, take care of others. The expectation is when you need help, all you have to do is ask.

People on the spectrum, as opposed to NTs, seem to be slower to understanding that and making that leap. NT relationships foster an interdependence not really visible to a brain that's wired differently. We see how people gain support and how seemingly easy it is. We miss the complexity and nuance of those relationships. We miss the tradeoff. So when we ask for help or, say, a girl for a date, the rejection doesn't make sense. If we are nice and polite, we should get dates automatically, right? Because that's how NTs do it. The problem is we don't bring anything to the table, and we don't see what NTs have to offer that we're missing. The NT brain is naturally wired for that, while the ND brain often isn't.

We can accomplish the same thing. The difference is we have to make a conscious effort of it. Of course, not all NTs have it easy, not all aspies have trouble with relationships (dating and relationships are among my special interests). The point is if something doesn't come naturally, conscious effort is required. Anyone can learn this stuff. Reciprocity works. All people are selfish. So learn to put it to work in your favor.

Remember, all people are selfish. Fail to incentivize a date and you'll be rejected every single time. Figure out how to make a girl feel special and you can't lose. Deliver what she wants and she'll do whatever it takes to keep you. Appeal to human nature and you'll always win, male/female, NT/ND, doesn't matter. We are all built this way.

Nope, I'm asexual so I'm not driven by sexual gratification at all. I find regular sexual intercourse disgusting but it is ok for reproduction.

You have a point about special interests. Those likely evolved to impress on females. You can see them as a replacement for crude sexual intercourse that the majority craves.



No, I find all of the above bad and unwanted. Also, you should know that many NDs have strong dislikes for authority, meaning you cannot control them like the above. If you try to weld power over me or try to control me, I'm sure to resist and never to do what you wanted me to do (even if I might do it if you didn't try to trick me into it). The only way to overcome that is to reason with me and make me want to do it myself by showing me it's good. That's classical with children that are anti-authority. If you don't do it like that, they'll get totally out of your control.

Also, being asexual comes in pretty handy here too because I really despise all the tricks and stuff related to sexual variation, and how many NT females use sex as a kind of tool to get favors. Doesn't work on me since I don't want the sex anyway, so I will not need to reciprocate with favors.



Only if I match your above description, which I don't.



Not at all. NTs invented hell to be able to control others, but Christianity originally was not created with that in mind. It's a kind of abuse of it.



Personally, I view Christianity as useful for the social issues like the above, but it is only NTs that needs to get it served in this way. I can see it as useful on it's own without all the drama.



That's correct, but I don't see the benefit of adapting to it. I like to take care of myself, and I don't need any help to get a gf. I don't even view dating as a useful method to get a gf. It is too much tied to NTs conditional reciprocity, power, controlling and all the rest. I want independent girls, not girls I need to constantly play power games with or have conditional reciprocity with. A relationship should be free of lots of work and musts.



I don't need to. The ND girls I like don't work that way. They don't like it when I "make them feel special", or, as they interpret it: Bribe them. They instead like it when I impress them with knowledge or special interests.

Everyone is driven by sexual gratification. How that manifests from person to person may be variable, but you aren't free of human nature. You are driven by your own need for self-importance, just like the rest of us.


Perhaps.


I've already manipulated you into responding to my posts, so this has been disproven in at least your case.


And yet you feel the compulsion to "debunk" dating--to, erm, WHAT end, exactly? To bend NDs to YOUR personal view? How selfish of you...


Irrelevant, and totally missing the point. Hell is the consequence of the soul existing apart from God's presence. Fear of separation is the primary motivation for stepping out on faith. Christians these days tend to downplay the existence of a spiritual Gehenna (the New Testament term--interestingly my translation lacks the word "Hell" but rather uses the older words and phrase references to it), but that is because we have no reason to fear it. But nevertheless Christians continue to seek God's will for the hope of God's eternal blessing to come. The desire to do God's will is itself a selfish desire for reasons all our own, whether we fear eternal torment or eagerly anticipate paradise. Ultimately that's not what Christianity is about, anyway, but my point here is what drives us to do what we do. Religion doesn't get a free pass.


Of course you don't see the point of adapting to it. That's because you're selfish.

You WANT independent girls? You mean girls who won't play power games with YOU? In other words, you want them complicit with what YOU want out of the relationship. No games, because you aren't interested in sharing the power. A relationship free of lots of work and musts for YOU.

Interestingly, your language focuses entirely on YOU, not how you might actually benefit your partner. Look closely:

"I don't see the benefit," "I like," "I don't need," "I don't even view," "I want," "I need"

There's no room for a partner in your life except to bow to your preferences.


You just contradicted yourself. In other words, they like it when you entertain them. Entertaining them makes them feel special. So...effectively you ARE bribing them.

Look, this isn't at all meant as a personal attack. It's an examination of motives, and not a single human being is free from it. You could turn everything I've said right back around on me and you'd be right. I'd actually agree with you. People strongly dislike being called evil and selfish, and that's understandable. People hate being called out on their negative qualities, even if it's just part of their nature and they can't help it. Because focusing on negatives and trying to change one's fundamental nature is a futile task, we tend to focus on at least what is going RIGHT and what GOOD we do without giving thought to our motives. It's not something people constantly think about, and the motives are mostly subconscious.

HOWEVER...

That it's hidden or not discussed doesn't mean it's not there. Understanding the darker side of human nature is a POSITIVE step towards predicting behavior. Why is it, for example, ok for one guy to compliment a girl and for the next guy it's taboo? Why is it one guy can pick up a random girl on the street and the next gets shouted down for being a creep? It doesn't make sense, except one situation appeals to primal, base desires or needs and the other offends them. One appeals to one's feelings of self-importance, the other poses an imminent risk. The difference between one and the other will vary from situation to situation. But understanding that makes navigating the human landscape much easier.

To whit: People are selfish. The more you deny your own needs and serve the needs of others, the more others will deny themselves to serve yours--because they continue to want what you have to offer. Guy at restaurant makes you a hamburger. You are hungry, so you take the burger. The cook is unable to continue to make you burgers because he needs transportation to the restaurant, ingredients to make burgers, and money to pay employees who help him make burgers for other people, to pay business and personal residence rent, electricity at business and at home, running water, heating during the cold season, and so forth. So you pay for the hamburger, denying your own hard-earned cash not because you really want to part with your hard-earned cash, but because you want him to continue making burgers for you. You get to enjoy the burger, he gets to enjoy making burgers. Everyone is happy.

We aspies can be trickier than NTs in that regard, but we aren't fundamentally different. It's a question of how someone can best communicate with us to understand our needs individually. Neither are aspies all carbon copies to which one approach fits all. We don't all even understand each other. We're more helpful assessing precisely what it is others want and discovering the best path to deliver it. If someone wants a monogamous relationship, they should do as monogamous couples do. If polyamory does it for you, do as the polyamorous do. If someone wants your style of relationship, they should take your advice. Is that really what most guys on WP want? The traditional model is not really an NT-specific dating style since it was never conceived with any specific person or group of people in mind--it's just that NT's predominantly follow that model. If that is what an aspie wants, there's no reason to deny him that.

I won't go into that, but the main point is that my needs and wants in this area are different. So you might say "everybody has some sexual needs and preferences", but to claim "everybody like regular sexual intercourse as a relationship enforcer" is not true. When you write "sexual gratification", I put that only in the latter category.



I never claimed I was not selfish. I think you are right that everybody is selfish, and perhaps NDs even more so, but from that, it doesn't follow that we involve in conditional reciprocity, which is an NT-trait. So, being selfish could very well qualify as "human nature" (even animal nature), but being involved in conditional reciprocity (tit-for-tat) does not.



Whatever, but none of that really interests me. I'm very interested in spiritual issues, but organised religion is just NT-junk I have no interest in.



I don't think that is accurate. The same rules apply to both her and me. I want a girl to have her own life, and to function on her own. I don't want the "two-becomes-one", other than on the spiritual plane. I certainly don't expect her to do lots of work for me when I want a relationship to be free of work. Same with polyamory. When I say I like polyamory, that means I will accept if my partner falls in love with somebody else. All of this needs to work both ways, otherwise, it is just another type of power-game.



Of course. That is typical of NDs. We are not social butterflies rather we are adapted to solitary life.



I think nature provided a really interesting solution to how the solitary individual can fit into relationships. You just need to understand it and stop thinking we are NTs in disguise. I mean, the primary reason why most of our effort is in courtship, and we put down very little effort in relationships, is because we are meant to be solitary and self-supporting.



Yes, but mostly in the courtship phase. And not by sweet-talking them or talking about my social status. You see, it is not the same motives behind ND courtship as NT bribing in relationships. They are fundamentally different processes.



Of course, but you will not get anywhere if you think the underlying motives are always the same. They depend on neurotype.



Because in the first case the girl is interested while in the second she is not. A guy can get away with almost anything as long as a girl is interested, and she will call him a creep even for minor contact attempts if she is not. Which means detecting potential interest is the most important ability a guy needs to have success with girls.

Still, the methods to detect interest differs between NDs and NTs. For detecting interest in stranger ND girls, the most appropriate method appears to be to try to establish eye-contact with quick glances. If the girl reciprocates that consistently, you can be pretty sure she is ND, interested and approachable, and that you will not be regarded as a creep regardless of what you do. NT girls, OTOH, show interest in different ways and are more active in trying to solicit interest from guys they like. NT girls expect the guy to approach as this is essential for her to know that he is interested. For NDs, guys often are reluctant to approach and make direct contact, and they prefer to keep it at a distance.



Wrong, it makes a lot of sense if you think in terms of interest. This is also applicable to general social environments. If people are interested in you, you can make contact any way you want, while if they are not, you will get the creep label regardless of how you attempt to contact them.



Now we are back to tit-for-tat again. However, you don't want friendships or relationships to be based on the same processes that are involved in money exchange. That would mean you are trying to buy friendships or love.



Of course. Relationship preferences do not directly relate to diagnostic status or even ND status. The ND relationship preferences are only correlated to diagnostic status and ND status. Therefore, we will see considerable variation in those preferences here. However, the problem is that some people believe that all NDs are better off following NT relationship preferences.