Time to be brutally honest with sperm donor seeking friend?

Post Reply New Topic

It isn't for you to decide what is or is not meaningful for a different man.

Plus, you telling her the truth as you see it is not likely to prevent her from continuing down the path she has chosen. People don't hear what they don't want to hear.

If you very tactfully and carefully tell her parts of the truth you believe you see as a response when she complains she can't keep a man, that is one thing. In that context, there is a small chance your information will be heard and can help her, if supplied appropriately. But in the context you are discussing, there really is no point.

I have mixed feelings about this observation. I've gotten used to how individuals with ASD can be quite brutal with their assessments of others, and I worked hard with my son to get him to keep it to himself. I've seen the extreme hurt and fracture that can happen when those thoughts are voiced. But I also know that there really is no one my son sees without a giant list of flaws, including himself. Flaws don't change his desire to be close to certain people, when other things line up. To him, flaws are just part of life, something he would assume everyone can see just as clearly as he does, and he will always find it strange that people take verbalizing them so negatively. The people closest to him know this and accept this about him, and know how to draw boundaries around him verbalizing it. If Nades is the same as my son, I don't think there is a disconnect in the way you might think there is.

Even if he isn't, there is something to be said for sticking by friends even when you realize they are quite messed up. You can put the different sides of them into different boxes, and carry out the friendship via the boxes that align. When the boxes that don't align are causing issues in their lives and they seek your help, the truth is better heard gently from a friend.

Good points. Thanks.

Most of my friends are very messed up, just like I am. I love them anyway. I guess I just felt like he was ready to pounce on this person with pent-up negativity when she hadn't even asked for his input. I don't like the way he correlated her body size with her mental health as a measure of whether she'd be a good mother. But of course each to his own.

Sorry Nades if I sounded upset. I shouldn't have mentioned the sperm thing but it seemed you really disliked this person and you were really critical in your observations.

I have dropped hints of varying degrees of subtleness over the years. Sometimes they're subtle like she says one thing might be a good idea and I say another thing that might be a good idea in the hopes she changes tact. Other times they have been a direct confrontation to what she has said or done. An example was that I questioned if she really needed to be at home the length of time that she was when her boyfriend would probably appreciate her doing some errands outside the house. She was having none of it.

I think she's at the age now here she's not going to change and I'm starting to have an issue with how out of wack her ideas for the future are.

It was going to be a weird as hell thread anyway. Not often do people decide to take such an unusual path in life out of desperation and the content of the thread is probably very alien to most and likely to stoke up tensions. No need to apologise.

My observations where very critical yes. Extremely so actually but she's kept ignoring warnings, kept piling on the baggage that partners strongly dislike and just didn't treat men as they should have been treated. She simply won't and can't change and has now over the years dug herself into a hole that she can never get back out of. She has sadly terminally failed herself and others around her can see likewise. I want her to just accept it and carry on with life gracefully rather than go through such unhumanising and desperate last ditch attempt to rectify those many years of continual failures.

Best case scenario she can have (at least in her mind) is she'll end up as a single mother on benefits below the breadline when she struggles to look after herself at the best of times, yet alone a child.

As far as I'm concerned it's well and truly over for her and I don't want her to drag unsuspecting men into it or succeed in becoming what I mentioned above. How or if to tell her is another matter altogether.

Genetically, she shouldn't be having biological kids. Obesity, mental health problems, along with overall intelligence are all highly heritable. What happens if she has kids and they turn out to be obese, have low intelligence, and have all sorts of mental health problems just like their mom? That's one reason to consider not having kids when you know that your overall genetics suck and you don't want to pass on your crappy genetics to your children.

Her overall intelligence is good but it's hard to tell if her mental and physical health problems stem from poor genetics or just a poor attitude. It's like the chick or egg scenario. Did she only develop physical and mental health problems because she refused to take responsibility for pretty much anything and doesn't like what she's become or was it in her genes to begin with?

I have more of an issue with the fact she wants to knowingly bring up a child on benefits, being mentally unstable, without any father figure and doesn't have basic life experience. The issue of seeing men as a means to an end also bothers me a lot and contributed to the mess she finds herself in.

I would answer with a polite but firm "no".

You don't have to give reasons, unless you choose to do so.

What if your friend decided to use IVF, or adopt? In either case she'd be screened by doctors, social workers, and mental health practitioners to determine her suitability for parenthood.

And regarding the need of a father figure,

Are you against all women raising children without father figures?
What about Lesbian couples?
What about women like myself? I've been a successful single mother for 25 years.
What about other single women or transwomen who want to adopt children?

Would you say the same of single fathers, that they require a mother figure for their child?
Should gay men be able to adopt or use surrogates?

I'm not sure to what extent your concerns are specific to your friend, or whether you are concerned about women's reproductive rights overall.

I wouldn't like it if she used IVF or adopted because she has no means to pay for a kid.

Knowingly conceiving a child single handed I always look down on. Family break up and becoming a single mother as a result is different as the child was conceived on good intentions

Gay couples male of female doesn't bother me as two is better than one in many ways.

If a third party that isn't a trusted partner is involved in making a child then the child's rights come before female reproductive rights (or make for that matter)

So, a single lesbian woman who wants to have children should forfeit the right to parenthood because of her orientation?

I'm know I'm veering off track, I'm just trying to understand.

Do you think a person needs to have relationship skills, or want a partner, in order to be a good parent?

I see relationship skill / desire and parenting skill / desire, as two completely separate things.

In many places, orphanages don’t often give kids for adoption to single people, they always preferred couples. Not sure if things changed, or whether they have to meet a harder criteria.

You're right. I've heard of that, I just don't understand it. Of course we all want what's best for a child. We all want them to have two healthy parents who love each other and will stay married, and have the support of extended families, etc. I get that ideologically, but it makes me sad that some children will never be adopted when there are perfectly suitable single people willing to parent. It's more in a child's best interest to be raised by someone loving, than to stay in the system. I think we can all agree on that.

My brother fostered and eventually adopted a little boy, as a single father. My brother is undiagnosed but very likely Classic Aspergers, he has Major Depression which is genetic in my family, and a very severe Anxiety disorder. He couldn't love anyone more than he loves his son, who is now in his 20s and living independently.

Then there's me: Level 2 ASD with ADHD, CPTSD, GAD, MDD, mutism, and more challenges than I could list. I've been a really great mother, if I do say so myself. I'm single and wouldn't have even considered remarrying or giving her a stepfather. I preferred the one-on-one relationship we shared. I'm on Disability benefits although I did work for decades when she was younger. I can't imagine having someone tell me I shouldn't have had her / kept custody, because of my mental health issues, or tell me that my daughter would be better off with a stepfather.

Sorry again OP if you think I'm derailing. I just find this topic really interesting, and relevant to my life.

A single lesbian woman I guess has forfeited the right to have kids if a third party needs to do it. If someone is going to a clinic or getting IVF and intended said procedure as their only method of conceiving then yeah, that's a bit rough in my eyes. IVF and sperm donors are options of last resort for couples struggling to conceive, not a first choice.

Desire to be a good parent and actually being one are two different things. As far as I'm concerned having the means to pay for a kid and having is stable house is mandatory whether someone thinks they're a good parent not.

The child's rights always trumps the parents rights.

To me, there are lesbians who would make excellent parents-----and heterosexuals conceiving the "normal" way who would make lousy parents.

Two women cannot produce a baby----so an alternative must be used. That's the way I think of it.

I'm not a real fan of surrogacy----but I believe IVF is a bit better. At least a woman doesn't have to give up the baby that was growing inside of her.

It's a bit rough in your eyes that women require sperm to have babies, whether or not they're lesbians?

I think it's a bit rough too to be honest, because I wish women didn't need to obtain sperm to become parents.
It's also rough that men need to obtain eggs.

Obviously that's biological and there's nothing we can do about it but try to support women who want to parent, all of whom have equal human rights to have children. I'm not aware of any laws saying that only certain people are allowed to have children, either biologically or by adoption. I'm especially unaware of laws saying that we can or should discriminate based on a person's sexual orientation or access to sperm in the traditional way.

"IVF and sperm donors are options of last resort for couples struggling to conceive, not a first choice."
- But it's still a choice for couples, whether it's their first choice or their last choice. Again you're suggesting that people shouldn't have the choice of parenting unless they also want / can have a partner. Raising a child and being in a relationship with another adult are two different situations with two sets of skills. Many people are aromantic and have no interest in being married or in a romantic union. Some people are asexual and don't want a partner because there's an expectation of sexual intimacy. Some people have suffered relationship trauma or relationship abuse / domestic abuse, and they don't want to be vulnerable again. I'm not sure how this relates to their ability / right to raise a child. Parenting isn't romantic or sexual. It doesn't involve dependence on another adult, or legal obligations such as marriage certificates and the chance of divorce.

"The child's rights trump the parents' rights"
OK, so by that token does it mean that overweight, unhealthy, or insolvent parents, or married couples with disabilities shouldn't be allowed to have children? Do couples need to pass a test to have children? Do people come inspect their homes and lives to allow pregnancy? Are children taken from parents if the parents are overweight or bipolar, or if they break up? And when one parent (or both) walks out on the relationship and the child, what recourse does that child have?

I hope you don't think I'm arguing. I just find the ethical debate very interesting.