Caught in a Narcassist's Web of Manipulation: Help!

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techstepgenr8tion
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13 Oct 2023, 3:28 pm

KitLily wrote:

I think society has just evolved to make it clear to men that it's not manly to talk about emotions or be nice to each other or sensitive in any way.

I think for the fact that we put men on sewer pipe repair, water treatment, construction, and a lot of the more punishing infrastructural load-bearing tasks men will probably always be treated different and will have to have a slightly different code of conduct for being pressure-treated for being 'up to the task'.

I had a discussion I posted in the Adult Autism Issues folder where it's Chris Williamson having a 90 minute interview with a guy named Connor Beaton (title was 'Does The World Actually Want Vulnerable Men?') and it sounds like we're primed for a change in social contract to really start looking at male social norms to figure out which ones are actually preparatory for professional excellence and which ones are purely self-defeating and weeding out more of the later since it's just costs (born by society when damaged men are less productive) accruing for little good reason than because certain ways of doing things have been carried forward.

We're playing with AI now, we'll be in a place where synthetic biology can be done in anyone's basement (Rob Reid beats that drum a lot) - it won't be a good time for people to be living in sort of semi-subconscious fever dream about what men and women are or what social contract looks like and then say anyone talking seriously and overtly about it immolates their social status for doing so.

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DirkGently69
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13 Oct 2023, 7:02 pm

CookiesNCream101 wrote:

I think I figured it out, it's PUA tatics and mind games.

I had to look up what PUA meant. Relationships seem so complicated. I’m not sure they are worth the effort most of the time. It’s hard enough for us to understand what is going on with people in general, without throwing in thoughts that what they actually want is disguised under layers of confusing double meanings. Hopefully you will start to learn to just say no to people, like I just have. It’s liberating. Good luck.

CookiesNCream101
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14 Oct 2023, 4:38 am

KitLily wrote:

Yes, he's messing with you for sure. Trust your gut.

If you have friends who treat you with respect, please do stick with them. They are priceless. I only have one friend, perhaps you can give me tips on how to find such genuine, respectful friends.

It's not so much on this site, it's everywhere online. Every site I've been on and had my PMs open, I've got weird/ abusive/ creepy messages and I'm done with all that. I'm not saying you would send such messages! But it's easier just to switch them off for everyone rather than change it constantly. I'm pretty bad at judging who has my best interests at heart so I'd rather everything was said to me in public.

I have some acquaintances and friends from years ago, but I think it's because I mask a lot. I'm not officially diagnosed, so it could just be trauma, PTSD, and anxiety. I try to be really nice and fun with people and listen to them a lot, but I could do better since I haven't contacted some for a while now.

That's a smart approach. It's better to keep the whole PM closed. Don't worry; I understand.

CookiesNCream101
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14 Oct 2023, 5:09 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

KitLily wrote:

Yes I think it's a game to some people. 'How many people can I get to sleep with me' (or whatever) Like those books and websites dedicated to 'how to make women/men fall for you'.

There was a really funny account on Twitter called Nick Adams- Alpha Male, which was like that. No one could work out whether it's a parody or not!

That's true but I mean, how some NT's socialize over all - with or without trying to get clothes off - it's constant competition, constant negging, constant games between each other. I think PUA tried to replicate this effect manually (ie. confident jerk, which amounts to f'boy for a lot of women) for those who don't naturally operate like this.

One thing I'm wondering about with PUA - the negging, it sounds like how guys already banter and it's pretty much telling guys to treat women like they'd initiate new guy friends. To me though that screams 'nothing serious!', ie. none of that would tell a prospective partner 'Wow - that's marriage material!'.

I looked into it, and now I'm sure it is, and even my therapist told me it's negging. I've read stories where people only use it on women they perceive as being out of their league, mainly in terms of physical attraction but also financially, physically, in terms of personality, etc. I've heard pickup artists (PUA artists) using these tactics in modern times to find girlfriends and wives. I've also heard married women complain that negging didn't stop, even though that's what was used on them when they first met.

There's even a Gumball episode where Mrs. Watterson is nagged to marry another guy in an alternative timeline, and he keeps negging her all the way into their marriage until she snaps and murders him.

So, yeah, not a good start to any type of relationship, especially considering I've known this guy since we were kids. A whole relationship built on insecurity sounds like hell. Now that I think about it, I believe that's my parents' relationship – my mom is very beautiful, and my dad is ugly inside and out. I think my own mother got fooled by negging.

CookiesNCream101
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14 Oct 2023, 5:12 am

DirkGently69 wrote:

CookiesNCream101 wrote:

I think I figured it out, it's PUA tatics and mind games.

Yeah I definitely need to learn to say no and to put up boundaries, I'm way too nice for no reason.
I don't know where it's coming from though.

CookiesNCream101
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14 Oct 2023, 5:16 am

DanielW wrote:

If you stop, take a breath and think a bit you'll realize that you aren't "caught in a web" of anything. If you don't like being "played"...Stop playing along. Step back. Walk away.

Yeah you're right, I have the power to step away. I think I always stick around toxic people because I'm used to it and rarely find kind people to spend time with.

KitLily
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14 Oct 2023, 6:03 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

KitLily wrote:

I think society has just evolved to make it clear to men that it's not manly to talk about emotions or be nice to each other or sensitive in any way.

But don't forget the vast numbers of men who are heads of companies, research, banking, medicine etc. All sorts of high up jobs like that. Not all men work in physical, tough jobs like the ones you list. So obviously men have a wide variety of personalities and talents, just like women do.

I don't think it's healthy to force men to suppress all emotions. Everyone needs to release emotions sometimes, obviously not when working, but at other times.

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KitLily
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14 Oct 2023, 6:06 am

CookiesNCream101 wrote:

DanielW wrote:

If you stop, take a breath and think a bit you'll realize that you aren't "caught in a web" of anything. If you don't like being "played"...Stop playing along. Step back. Walk away.

Yeah you're right, I have the power to step away. I think I always stick around toxic people because I'm used to it and rarely find kind people to spend time with.

Oh yes I got caught in that for so many years! Being 'friends' with toxic people becuase that's how I was brought up and it seems normal to me.

I don't know many kind people who actually like me. So I just stay at home 24/7. I only see my husband and daughter. I'm not sure how I ended up with them. But it seems that's my lot. No more friends for me, just those two.

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PhosphorusDecree
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14 Oct 2023, 6:08 am

Honestly, I think you should block him and just avoid talking to him. You're not going to get anything from that type except more attempts to manipulate you. Why worry about being rude to him when he doesn't show you the same respect?

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KitLily
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14 Oct 2023, 12:02 pm

PhosphorusDecree wrote:

I agree with you. Why bother with someone who is manipulating you?

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honeytoast
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14 Oct 2023, 1:56 pm

run

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microprogrammer
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21 Oct 2023, 8:05 am

I agree that you should just move on from this person and don't look back. My experience with manipulative people is that if you keep coming back to them you'll just get more of the same. I don't know why it can be so hard to give up on things like this. I have personally had a situation like this recently, and it's been so hard to resist the urge to go back and try to get some reasonably positive and supportive response from them.

blitzkrieg
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21 Oct 2023, 8:29 am

I agree with the person in the thread who said that negging is often just part of the power dynamics of NT style social communication and doesn't necessarily have to be part of any PUA tactic or tactics.

People do that kind of thing to each other as friends, without any intentions of going to bed with people or whatever.

Sometimes it is labelled 'banter' or some such thing.

DirkGently69
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21 Oct 2023, 8:35 am

Hi Cookies, have you managed to sort out your problem yet?

microprogrammer
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21 Oct 2023, 8:48 am

Quote:

I have personally had a situation like this recently, and it's been so hard to resist the urge to go back and try to get some reasonably positive and supportive response from them.

To clarify what I meant here, I understand that it's really frustrating when you have some sort of a friendship with someone, and it seems that they're not treating you with respect. In that situation I've found I have a desire to try again, by reaching out to them further. But my experience is also that in these situations I keep getting the same response, which makes me feel worse.

DirkGently69 and blitzkrieg seem to suggest that you should just not expect much in the way of connection from your interactions with these people, if I'm reading them right. Maybe then I'd update my advice and say to interact with such people in a detached way, not expecting much, and not needing any kind of validation from them.

BillyTree
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21 Oct 2023, 9:52 am

If this guy makes you feel bad and you have no romantic feelings towards him, then just cut him off instead of wasting time and energy trying to analyze it. Go with your gut feelings. Stick to people that makes you feel good and secure.

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