aspies and being a "jerk" to women

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zee
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20 Jan 2008, 3:31 am

LVBen wrote:

Gamester wrote:

You watch too many sitcoms and soap operas Space.

In real life, women like the good down to earth man.

Of course women like men to be nice to them. Who doesn't? Men like to be treated nice too, but being nice is some kind of weird sub-conscious turn-off to a lot of women.

Like gwenevyn said, it depends on your definition of "nice".
I found this site which explains it quite well, we had a discussion about it a few months ago:

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/ ... s/ng.shtml

Space
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20 Jan 2008, 3:36 am

zee wrote:

LVBen wrote:

Gamester wrote:

You watch too many sitcoms and soap operas Space.

In real life, women like the good down to earth man.

Of course women like men to be nice to them. Who doesn't? Men like to be treated nice too, but being nice is some kind of weird sub-conscious turn-off to a lot of women.

That site basically took "nice guys" and ran with it to complain about men. I think...

gwenevyn
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20 Jan 2008, 3:37 am

logitechdog wrote:

& you wonder why it's easyier for females lol, think my brain will be exploding by the time I get all the information needed& I fill it with all the to dos & not to do, other words might as well stop been yourself & fake who you are

, what happened to a shy guy been a turn on...

Hmm... I think it's especially hard on aspies of both sexes because we try to take in all this information and interpret it as rules to guide our behavior. Sometimes I think we should just chuck all this advice out the window. If anything I say (or anybody else says) makes you feel uncomfortable or hopeless, just ignore what you read and be yourself.

It's a hell of a lot easier and most likely we'll eventually encounter someone will like our good qualities enough to be patient with our flaws.

I think we can adapt to what others like without becoming fake though. I mean, when I get out of bed in the morning, my hair is a mess. I shower and comb my hair in part because other people think I'm prettier that way. Does that mean I'm fake when I'm clean and groomed, since without that intervention I would naturally have bedhead and be dirty? Of course not.

But seriously, if you're getting frustrated with all this stuff you read, just throw it away! Sometimes we deconstruct too much, don't we?

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Space
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20 Jan 2008, 3:47 am

gwenevyn wrote:

Probably. The internet is my main source of information and advice on relationships. This is probably terrible. I have a few friends who I talk about relationships with, but most don't really give much advice because you just need to learn it yourself (by making mistakes etc).

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20 Jan 2008, 3:58 am

Space wrote:

(by making mistakes etc).

Allot of them

Think you might find this funny lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC_M2Z-J ... re=related

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GrantZilla
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20 Jan 2008, 3:59 am

I never really had this problem. I'm naturally a cold person, so being clingy, or calling a girl a lot or whatever not even in my nature.

If anything, I am accused of being a "jerk" for not doing that kind of stuff. Unless I really know the person, and even then, I'm not compelled to do that kind of stuff.

I can say, it does drive certain women, especially the ones that are use to attention, crazy. They want to know why your not drooling or being their lap-dog, and that's kind of facinating to them. But that's only a temperary thing. They just want to find out why your not "into" them like every other male.

But anywas, your looking at it wrong. Why would even want to deal with the kind of women that have such low respect for themselves that they are only attracted to guys that are A-holes to them? Usually they got a lot personal isssues, and a lot drama, and it'll just be a waste of time, unless into drama.

Last edited by GrantZilla on 20 Jan 2008, 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pugly
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20 Jan 2008, 4:03 am

LVBen wrote:

Number 7
Never follow the woman
Men often try to follow a woman who doesn’t want to lead, and when she doesn’t lead, the man tries to convince her to lead with questions and body language that seeks approval. She leads, he follows -- in fact, she isn’t even leading, but he tries to follow. This is a huge mistake. Instead, step up, be a man and LEAD. Pick a course and stay on it -- even though she is all over the map. Let her reorient her body, behavior and moods to yours. Don’t backpedal, change, explain yourself, or ever try to get her to lead. She may resist at first, but she’ll love you for it in the end.

Makes sense... except for the explain yourself bit. I don't really understand why that would be considered bad, I always want to be prepared with a justification of what I'm doing. Otherwise I would never be confident about anything...

But in life it is generally good just to do what you like... if it is reasonable others will like it too... and this seems to hold true in dating and whatnot...

Quote:

Number 5
Stop giving away your power
Most men give away their power to women to get approval. The problem is that this is not one of the ways to be the man women want. That’s why those few men who choose to keep their power are so powerfully attractive to women. What’s the lesson here? Never give away your power to get on a woman’s “good side.” If feels like it should work, but it NEVER does.

Um... okay... what does this even mean. What is power even in reference to? Physical Power? Social Power? Super Powers? And is it something you can give?

There must be something here I'm not quite understanding about male/female interactions... or they made something up to fill out their list of 10 things.

Quote:

Number 4
“Man up” about your insecurities
Instead of hiding the things that you’re insecure about, feature them until you’re over them. How? Practice making cocky jokes about them when you first meet a woman and are flirting. Say something like, “This is never going to work out; you’re not good at arguing and I overcompensate for being short by acting arrogant... so we’d always argue, and I’d always win.”

Ah, that's all well and good when one of your "insecurities" is being too short and the result is being arrogant... :roll:

And telling a woman she's no good at arguing... so much for showing women respect...

What about real insecurities like trouble calling people on the phone.... Or a concern that no one really understands you.... Or wondering if you are good enough for her...
I'd like to see someone 'man' up those...

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Pugly
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20 Jan 2008, 4:09 am

gwenevyn wrote:

LVBen wrote:

Also, avoid other things that might get you labeled as nice. If they make a suggestions as to what you should order, order something completely different. Don't ask them for their opinion on anything. If a waiter sits you down at a table that you don't want, don't ask her if she wants to move or if she'd be ok with moving, just ask for another table.

If I might interject... I'd say that from this girl's perspective it's not that the guy needs to avoid being labeled nice (and I don't think it would be necessary to disregard her preferences for the meal). Rather, it is great to see a guy who isn't stuffing all his own preferences under the rug in order to please me. I don't trust a guy who "happens" to agree with me on everything, but it isn't because he is too nice... it's because he comes across as a liar or a pushover. I know he couldn't possibly actually agree with me on everything, so I figure he is out to get something from me, not get to know me and bond with me.

(Plus, as a personal preference, it's nice to be with someone who says "would you like to go to xyz restaurant" rather than the whole "what do you want to do? i dunno... what do you want to do?" cycle)

That got me to thinking about the weird way I handle preferences, much of the time... I really don't have a strong opinion on a matter. Especially trivial dating things... like restaurants and whatever...

This is sort of a 'weak' stance... but in reality it's just indifference. When something comes up that I do have an opinion on, I'm do express it...

Pugly
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20 Jan 2008, 4:17 am

gwenevyn wrote:

I think we can adapt to what others like without becoming fake though. I mean, when I get out of bed in the morning, my hair is a mess. I shower and comb my hair in part because other people think I'm prettier that way. Does that mean I'm fake when I'm clean and groomed, since without that intervention I would naturally have bedhead and be dirty? Of course not.

Well grooming is external, but changing so much about how you interact and react to people is internal. Much more difficult to change, and if it goes against your nature... I would never make fun of women like these 'jerk' guides tell me to... if I change that way I would definitely be fake.

Communication is just as much about the other person as grooming is... if not more so. I think it's difficult to think that way sometimes, and so presenting yourself in a different way is considered fake...

Personally, I never really thought about grooming in that light... that it is for others. I groom because I hate having greasy hair, and dress because it is what I think looks good. I put on deodorant and shower, because I hate it when people smell... and hate it even more if I am committing those offenses.

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20 Jan 2008, 4:26 am

Pugly wrote:

Aw, I don't really think it matters that much. It doesn't necessarily come across as weak. I think most healthy girls would prefer a guy to err on the shy/considerate side than to err on the side of arrogance. I've never actually met a guy who managed to exude confidence or be a leader right from the beginning without coming across as overbearing. That balance doesn't naturally occur ...I think.... it's more like people grow into an acceptable pattern, together. To me it's a special moment to get to that point with a shy, considerate type of guy, where he finally feels comfortable being assertive about his preferences or (if he doesn't have strong preferences) will do me the favor of making those decisions sometimes, because he knows that's what I want. And again, I bet there are some girls who would prefer to lead.

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Pugly
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20 Jan 2008, 4:36 am

gwenevyn wrote:

Yeah that comfort stage would be neat, where I am assertive... because I know my girlfriend's preference... not because I want to assert myself everywhere.

That said, my natural way isn't one of great confidence... I'm not a leader... but I'm not a pushover... somewhere in the middle. I would probably have to go out on a couple of dates, before a girl really understood much of who I am...

Last edited by Pugly on 20 Jan 2008, 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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20 Jan 2008, 4:38 am

Space wrote:

Okay, most people have heard all cliches like "women like jerks" and "nice guys finish last." I am realizing that a lot of women seem to feel (they have told me this) more comfortable around guys who treat them mean, because then they are always trying to gain their favor. So even if they like you, if you don't treat them mean, they lost interest, because they have you.

If a girl wants to be treated badly then she may have problems and that is a miserable thing to have problem people in your life. The best kind of partnership is when you both like the same things and have something to talk about and do together. If you are a very intelligent Aspie then you will need someone who can match that. I say this because I have a very sweet younger man after me, he is kind, adoring, claims to love me in spite of my sometimes obvious Aspieness but we share no hobbies and he bores me because of that reason, we just don't have anything to talk about, though I do really like his kindness.

Quote:

if you be yourself, you are screwed.

Yes, once you let your guard down and your Aspieness comes out, things can go the wrong way, not just in relationships, but in all situations. You are still going to suffer if you cannot express yourself though, in depression. Its a bit of a no win situation living in an NT world if the AS is severe.

LVBen
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20 Jan 2008, 4:45 am

Quote:

It is bad, because if you make a bad decision, the justification was obviously flawed in some way, and saying the justification won't fix the error. Plus, the more you talk about it, the more she'll be thinking about the bad decision. It is best just to move on.

Quote:

Um... okay... what does this even mean. What is power even in reference to? Physical Power? Social Power? Super Powers? And is it something you can give?

Social power! This is like what I wrote earlier. You need to be in control. Don't turn your dates into a democracy.

Quote:

Ah, that's all well and good when one of your "insecurities" is being too short and the result is being arrogant... :roll:

And telling a woman she's no good at arguing... so much for showing women respect...

It says that you are supposed to say it as a "cocky joke". If it comes across as being disrespectful, you didn't say it right.

Quote:

What about real insecurities like trouble calling people on the phone.... Or a concern that no one really understands you.... Or wondering if you are good enough for her...
I'd like to see someone 'man' up those...

I don't know... try stuff like "It's not my fault that the telephone doesn't accurately communicate my amazing coercion skills!" or "She misunderstood me, because she was so overwhelmed by being in the presence of someone as handsome as me" or "I know I only make $8 an hour, but I'm hung like a horse!"

GrantZilla
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20 Jan 2008, 4:48 am

Kaleido wrote:

The person going to know somthing is up with you no matter what, unless your Academy Award winning actor and can really fool the person. It does depend on how severe you are, but even mild cases, going to know something is off.

As soon as you start to get to know someone, you might as well put your cards on the table, so you know where they stand and not waste your time down the road if they can't deal with it.

LVBen
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20 Jan 2008, 5:02 am

GrantZilla wrote:

Kaleido wrote:

That's why you have to get laid on the first or second date, because there may not be a third one. Maybe if you figure how to turn her on, she might disregard your social peculiarities for a bit longer. :wink:

J/K

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20 Jan 2008, 5:06 am

LVBen wrote:

So, you can make a bad decision with no justification too. Confidence comes from my ability to think and understand. The only thing I can think of, is that women really don't care about how you got to your decision... and it's boring to them. But I don't see explaining yourself as being weak... just a tad dull... no mystery or whatever...

Quote:

It says that you are supposed to say it as a "cocky joke". If it comes across as being disrespectful, you didn't say it right.

Even as a joke, it's still disrespectful. Actually I don't think I'm looking at it right, it barely even seems as a joke to me... I wouldn't laugh at a comedian acting like that.... unless it is painfully obvious he wasn't going to win an argument. The humor involved in these "cocky funny" routines is really quite terrible.

I guess the joke isn't the point though, it's about being cocky in a lighthearted way...

Quote:

Wow, these aren't funny either...

Is that really maning up about your insecurities though... and how does someone know if you are actually opening up and admitting a problem...when it is fused together with a crappy joke?

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