The "Friend" Category: Oh really.

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If there was a way to say "I think I might become attracted to you, but I need to get to know you first before I can really start dating you" without sounding really insecure, I'd like to hear it...




Then why am I, as a man in this world, expected to do precisely that in the first place?

I think we veer apart at one critical juncture; you see friendship as an avenue to dating, whereas I see dating as a process that can leading to friendships or relationships, and sometimes from the one to the other. Larger scope, larger spectrum. Dating IS that way of saying "Hey - I think there may be an element of attraction here, and I want to get to know you better." - our language gets in the way.


M.

Dating requires that actual attraction be established beforehand. For most people, physical attraction is sufficient, which is why dating begins so rapidly in most cases. However, since I regard physical attraction as not the only component of total attraction, I need to know a little bit before I can make an informed decision...

Also, on a more personal note, when I am in within a larger group of people, it's easier to play off of people's reactions to other people than it is with only the woman in question present. When there's alot of unknowns, being in a larger group of people (especially people I know) is easier to handle...

This is all BS on my planet. Dunno where you're from, but your first statement to me indicates you have no relevant experience with this topic.
All I have ever known is rejection, and most of it took the form of her saying "let's just be friends". Those doors are all permanently closed, and attempts to open them are stalker behavior, so after a few painful lessons I have refrained.
I have never been in a situation where a friend or coworker suddenly got flirtatious, and frankly doubt such things exist outside of sitcoms.

To me, dating requires interest over attraction. Attraction can develop in time.


M.

Your statement here to me indicates you are having a bad day, with lots of frustration from having experienced no romance in your life. That must be frustrating. Go read ALL my posts in this thread where I go into further detail on how to break through those closed doors.

Hope you find a girl soon.

|-o-| V4der |-o-|

The "let's just be friends" thing is not true. What you fail to understand(and what most fail to understand), is that "let's just be friends," is actually a lie in and of itself.

What do I mean?

It doesn't even mean lets be friends. It means, they not only are not attracted to you, but don't really think you have any interest, and thus don't really even care to be much of a friend with you. In other words you are a "Hi, how are you", I see you around once in awhile friend.

They don't intend to develop ANY relationship with you on any level.

However, that doesn't mean one cannot become good friends or even in a relationship if someone said "let's just be friends."

I would urge you to overlook your condition. If your having lots of fun with a person, feel good around them, and think it is mutual on the same level, and then ask them out, and they say "let's just be friends." That may be a que. However, it has nothing to do with whether or not a relationship is possible. Rather, what you should understand, is they may not even like you as a friend, as much as you like them.

The scale is whacked. This is the main problem, and why some people will fail time and time again to alter such into a relationship. Since you think you get along great, you will pursue that course of action hoping that person will open up at some point.

The problem however is, that your worth is not as highly regarded to them, as they are to you.

You can even see things like this on websites for critical information. I know a number of guys who have complained about cases as have been described in this thread or others. If you go on a site like facebook or myspace, you will notice though, that while the PURSUED may be on the complainers top friends...the opposite is not true.

If the girl in question elaborates and says your like a brother...that still is uneventful on your closeness...for all you know she doesn't really like her siblings, and thus can make such a claim with the notion that you don't have a close friendship anyways. She would be taking advantage of your assumptions of what a brother is.

Meanwhile, saying your a best friend is more of a white lie, or a stretch of assumption. What exactly is "best?" It is hard to heirarchy. Even if she could explain it, it would end up a white lie in the end if not an outright lie. Most people, even those claiming honesty, or said to be honest, do not think of a white lie as a lie. They think its perfectly acceptable.

I may not agree with that reasoning myself, and hate all forms of lying, but I also realize this to be true, that so called "honest" members of society are in some form liars. However, small.

So I urge you to rethink your whole relationship, friendship or otherwise, with the girls who make the claim of "let's just be friends." It could be possible they may not like being around you very much at all. You could determine that simply by evaluating your entire Social life with them. Do you hang out at least once a week, or once every two weeks? If it is any less, they may not enjoy your company an incredible deal. That may be your problem, not the so called friend zone.

PUA's will make the claim that the friend zone is real to play off fears. By playing off the fear of individuals, they empower themself, and sucker you into coming back for more. They want you to believe its real. Those who have had relationships will not be looking for their advice anyways. They will think they can make it work, even if they aren't very good at relationships at all. THey don't need PUA advice. Only those PUA's deem as hopeless, will be targeted. And the "friend zone" is how they guarantee you will now and forever, follow their every word.

I can say this honestly, because I have had the exact OPPOSITE experience. I have one of the worst social lives in the history of mankind...ok that may be a stretch. A bit of an exaggeration as I have no way to scientifically go about proving this. Let me just say though, that it is a very very bad social life.

However, I do know for a fact that I have had a good number of women...including some very very very attractive women(9's and 10's by todays GORGEOUS WOMAN standards), who had large crushes on me, and others who knew me enough, that a relationship with them would've been possible.

I could go over a history of why I know this to be true...and even by showing cross referenced information amongst them when comparing them to each other, my normal interaction with women in general, and those who were attracted to other men and how they acted around them. Thats not the point though.

The point is though, that Because my social life is bad, and I have been betrayed by friends early on in life, and even later, that I am EXTREMELY untrusting...perhaps to a level just below paranoid. However, I want as a large goal, to develop some very close friendships with people that I can trust, and know will support me as I would support them.

This tends to shatter my focus between friendship and relationship. Combine that with the fact I have been hurt and am untrusting of others and most of that goes...to put it bluntly...s**t.

So girls tend to do the opposite with me. We will be friends(or at least friends from my point of view), and they will somewhere sometime...become attracted to me...and then usually somewhere down the line later...get completely pissed at me for not noticing...which I only than realize after the fact (what irony.).

Anyways....long story short. FRIEND ZONE does not exist. Overlook your situation and try to figure out why the girls do not like you as much as a person. Rather than asking them after-the-fact why they don't like you "in that way", ask them why they don't like you as person, or even as much of a friend.

Hopefully this can help you...it is sound advice, and should be able to help you at least minimally if nothing else. My problems right now are more to do with end of college and right out of college experiences...friendship, relationship or otherwise...you see people less, and everybody, even those that wouldve sworn against it, seem to be in a super drinkathon, go to the City bar scene, get a one night stand scene.

Not that I care...but I don't drink. I would go with them...but people really seem to be asshats. If you don't drink, they try to make every problem in the world your problem so you either drink or so they can look down on you and not hang out....this makes things very difficult. Im tired of finding answers...I just want stable environment for once...cruel world. Guess I'll continue to scavenge the invitations I get and hope for the best.

This seems to be the most accurate description of what "let's be friends" really means I've seen on here. It's simply a sugar-coated rejection, & they rarely treat you much like a friend afterward.

However, if she does still talk to you on her own accord, then it almost always means she is interested. Never found it to be the case for a woman to hang around a man who's expressed romantic interest in her without being open to reterning these feelings (at least sub-consciously). Later down the road, she often does.

Confirmation is a wonderful thing...


Thanks, Hero!

QFT. The 'friendship' on offer is usually worthless trash - useless to the guy if he' just looking for sex or casual dating, insulting if he's looking for something more serious.



Not if she talks to you but treats you like scum.

aren't those the same things?

Not to me... an interest in someone is a glint in the sand, a flash that there is something worth investigating. Being attracted to someone takes a lot more; once there, then exclusivity in dating or other developments in a relationship are worth pursuing.

Hero - sorry you've been burned, but I can in no way accept your diatribe as actual fact. Yes, the phrase is tired and used a crutch by some, but you and others are making sweeping generalizations based on the stereotypes and not the reality. *shrug* Different worlds.


M.

I'm not exactly sure how I am making sweeping generalizations, so much as I am presenting what I have seen involveing others around me.

Like I said further down, I have the entire opposite problem, but it gets really really messy(I think what I posted above about my own experiences, is sufficient for that tale. It would be too much to go into my experiences further).

If they pull the line "let's just be friends", they really do not think about a person much at all. I'm not making the argument that its impossible to develop things further, as I had already said before...but you really are fighting an uphill battle.

The problem does not lie in how they perceive you in a relationship, but how they perceive you as a person or even "friend."

This is why I reiterate, that if you are absolutely that infatuated with a person...and like them as who they are...it is better to approach the question in regards to two people...not necessarily one side approaching it in the hopes of being two lovers.

That I would argue is a better avenue for developing deep friendship and or chance for that long desired relationship.

When you assert that things are one way, in a blanket manner, then a generalization is being made. Primarily, with regards to the concept of the 'just be friends'. The relationships I consider failures arose out of instant attraction and not knowing each other; those I treasure arose from friendships. I don't think you can take anything concrete from that sort of 'let's-be-friends' response other than being dismissed romantically at that time - too many variables to assign anything more to it. In my present relationship, we were friends for eight years... While my feelings started to develop immediately, due to circumstance we have grown closer together as partners due to that communication instead of immersion in relational issues. Perhaps I came off as too critical, as most of my reaction was geared toward your earlier content; my apologies for the confusion.


M.

There is a clear distinctions between "Let's just be friends" and "Let's be friends, and see where it goes from there."

The former is dismissive, while the latter opens up onto a world of possibilities.

Fair enough - I find it presumptive to make assumptions of another's motivations without information, though... and here, it's being tossed about as though some here think they are qualified and know the thoughts of another person. Sorry, but that smells bad in my world.


M.