The Competition: On Quashing Them

Post Reply New Topic

Well said; those who accept failure are doomed to repeat it.


M.

I would just say that there are just as many women as there are men. You get ~50% chance of boy or girl, thus in 3 billion people 1.5ish should be female.

Hence, there is not a competition for females (unless your local area has no females). The competition is over desirable females. Really, it's all a #'s game if you ask me. #'s and how your received once you meet someone that would otherwise be into you. (Even if 1/20 women technically are into your "type", if you come across as a weirdo then your chance is shot w/ her).

Sounds like you're bewildered by a barrage of random interpersonal posturing. Does sound confusing, on the one hand, while on the other hand it sounds like you're focusing on the noise and missing the signals. That is easy to do. I do that in normal interaction with NTs (but not in romantic/sexual things).

Focusing on the noise of their head games and ego chatter means that you don't know what to do, that's all. And you are feeling a volitional void because you don't know how to proactively guide or get control of these disorienting encounters. I wouldn't suggest that adopting the evil ways of sexual Machiavellians is a good way to fill that void. If you map sexual Machiavellianism onto classroom behavior, the Machiavellians are the ones who cheat to get by -- they are the cheaters who not only cheat themselves but steal the books of the good students and beat them up after class. So while they may win short-term, the whole Machiavellian thing is a thing that NT losers do.

Sounds like you need more experience so that you can get a sense of the game. You can get more experience simply by starting with women who are a little lower on the totem pole than the ones you are trying for. You have to learn about sex before you can become a seducer-of-women. No matter what you think about how sex is unavailable to you, I bet that there is some woman -- even if she's s fifty-year-old widow -- down along the bar that you could bag. And I'm not suggesting that you con or use people, just that you learn more about women, and about sex, before trying to succeed as a hunter. Buy sex books, read and memorize them carefully even if you don't get it all, and then talk to and have sex with those women you CAN get. Treat every sexual opportunity as a learning lab session to get your sex skills up to par -- push your partner to tell you what feels good and try a lot of things, each time you have sex. You will become more able to read women's sexual response if you make it a particular learning effort. When you start getting good at talking to women you are having sex with, it will reflect in how you talk to other women.

So many novices try to start with landing a girlfriend when they don't have any skills of the hunt yet. Don't start with those women you want. Start with those women you can get. And start building your skills there.

Believe me, there are women you can get out there, your eyes are just scanning above their heads for someone better. Learn how to respect them, talk with them, pleasure them sexually, and build your sexual skills very carefully. If you can be kind to, caring toward, respectful and skillfully sexually pleasure a woman you think is hideously ugly or too obese, you will have what it takes to be secure and meaningful when you talk to a woman you think is beautiful. And see past the noise of their insecure or evasive chatter.

Sorry if this lecture is off-base. I'm interpreting your confusion with the noise of their ego chatter as disorientation and lack of experience, so my advice is to tell you how to get experience.

I'm not making any other assumptions about you, and might have interpreted your post incorrectly, so please don't take offense!

Also, the degree of insecure or evasive chatter is related to the degree of naivete of the person, too. I don't like to deal with men who can't send clear messages or act inconsistent. Like you said, they have some kind of inchoate sexuality or game going on. Perhaps what you are also seeing is naivete of the woman. NT women often sound like they are playing games when they are just insecure or confused... they send chatter out as a defense mechanism very easily. So my advice about decoding ego-chatter and noise is to post specific instances here about what was happening and what a woman said, and get help for specifics, instead of developing a nuclear social weapon skill like Machiavellianism to blast past all resistance.

I don't know the details, but it doesn't sound like they are playing head games; they're just not intersted in you. They may see you as a friend (hence the ranting about exes), but I wouldn't read too much into their 'actions' as a lot of women flirt just for fun. Also, as someone with AS, you might be picking up their behaviour the wrong way (a lot of NTs have the same problem to be fair).

As for the suggestion in the original post, I do not agree. Not out of morals (although I think the whole idea of putting another person down to get a partner is rather dispicable), but simply because it does not work.

I've had it done to me; a male friend of mine used to pick apart my bf's actions all the time (in retrospect, he may have fancied me); my bf bought me flowers once, and this 'friend' started going on about how cheesy his choice was and the colour being wrong and what flowers he would pick for a girl.... etc. It didn't make me warm to him at all. Instead, my gut reaction was to stand up for my bf. It's made me quite wary around this guy ever since, which is a shame because I did like him before.

I'd normally shrug this off, but someone did successfully seduce a girl I was interested in - who had shown overt interest in me - in this fashion. I guess it may work sometimes. But just going by how I felt about the two of them afterward, I would never do this myself even if it meant never finding a girlfriend.

Last edited by Hector on 19 Dec 2008, 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You talk like you don't realize how condescending—not to mention disgusting ("fifty-year-old widow -- down along the bar that you could bag")—your advice sounds. Whatever the totem pole is, I don't recognize it, and my take on things isn't derived from society's consensus. If a woman catches my eye or says something provocative, I go for her. I take the opportunity and then decide later how compatible she might be. Whether she's attractive in others' eyes or has too much baggage according to some matters none to me.

I may have had plenty of experience with B.S., but I also have enough experience—even with the most complicated of women—to know how to captivate them. It takes time to develop a real emotional connection based on the overcoming of obstacles, a passionate but unwaveringly supportive attitude, the demonstration that you're fully prepared to risk everything for her, and the ability to express disagreement in a way that is actually humorous and supportive but not hurtful. She was the one I listed above as expressing intense hatred but with her behavior suggesting the opposite (among other things that happened). Really, I'm pretty sure it mostly had to do with her unwillingness to risk peer/family disapproval.

Obviously I'm going to notice first and foremost the women who are most attractive to me for physical beauty, personality, or compatibility of interests. That's not to say I act like a jackass towards women I find less attractive. First of all, I don't like to prematurely reject opportunities, so I have a willingness to at least chat with them and get to know them a little better. I'm usually pretty good at finding the positive in most people. Second, it makes no sense to coldly reject someone because that needlessly tarnishes your reputation, and if I have a reputation, I'd rather it be that I worship in the temples of Aphrodite/Venus, Diana, and Athena/Minerva.

Fair enough, half of it may be just plain old insecurity.

I don't even feel the least bit attracted personally to a woman that I don't know well enough... She could be the most gorgeous-looking woman ever with a great personality to boot, but it doesn't mean s**t in my eyes if I don't know her... Therefore I can't just go down to a bar and try to ask a woman out... it just doesn't work with my psychological framework... On the flip side, I'm quite personable (and a bit flirty to boot) with the women that I do know, but I end up running into the "friend zone" way too often...


You're making the concept of getting a girlfriend sound like tribesmen trying to find food... no wonder male society has issues with degrading women...


I've got the respect and talking to women down pat, even to women that are more overweight than I am. But, being a virgin, I don't think I have what it takes to get anywhere...

I don't like bar people either. I like people I know an do things with. IMO, when you do something with someone, like fix something or climb something, you learn more about them that if you sit on a date on your best behavior trying to pitch some marketing to each other! Doing real activities of interest, and focusing on what we are doing, is how I always met men I admired and was compatible with (since we are doing things that are interesting to both).

Maybe some of my advice is off. I was in the military and had to stand late-night duty with guys, and went out on boats for rescue missions that sometimes ran into the tens of hours long. So guys talk to each other (and sometimes talked to me) about their women, how they met, how they learned how to talk to women, how they learned how to meet women, etc.

I have a lot of info and tips, mainly from those military days, that might not be great information, from how these sailors talked about their relationships and lives. Like listening to frat house talk, maybe some of it was false. But I also worked as a cocktail waitress through part of school (it's easy because you don't have to memorize a menu). I did see a lot of action, and young guys with older women wasn't that uncommon.

I'm not sure what motivated the young guys who went after the older women, I just assumed that was a good way to pick up some advanced training from someone experienced. I have heard that young men will go after older women to learn things from them.

I didn't mean to be condescending or offensive in my "status" or "go for the woman you can get instead of the woman you want" suggestion. It's a hard subject, to talk about who's above your level and who's at your level and who is below your level. What standard? (Level of attractiveness, coolness, financial prosperity?) One thing is for sure is that women will reject a man they think is "below" them in some way, except if the guy is beautiful, rich or very sexy.

Like I said I was just reading assumptions into your post, without knowing you. Sometimes such advice can be quite off.

Ephemerella,

I didn't find your advice condescending -- I actually found it right on, in a thread where a lot of guys (who may or may not know what they are actually talking about) were talking some fairly scary and counterproductive stuff about "making everyone else lose." My 2 cents is that this is the wrong way to go, and is a very guy-like way of thinking of things. As we all know (or should know if we knew what we were talking about or had experience), guy logic doesn't translate to successful dating or relationships, as it doesn't factor in how the woman thinks about things.

In my experience, women dislike haters and hating, because they see through the ulterior motives of the person doing the hating (women are quite good at that), and perceive the hating for what it is, a weakness. If you're game was so good, or if you were such a good catch, you wouldn't need to denigrate the competition. Women value social harmony in their relationships, and they don't think much of a guy who trashes his own just to get some.

There are some fragile and frustrated egos here, so it was no surprise that some reacted badly to your well-intentioned and good advice, and it certainly doesn't make your advice untrue. The truth hurts, and the fact that a lot of guys here try to approach the topic like it was another game to win through power games and intimidation just shows the degree of cluelessness about the topic. I should know, because when I was that age, I also reacted the same way, with the haterism, the Michiavellianism, the envy, and the feeling that guy logic should be applicable to the issue, rather than stepping back and just improving myself.

Tearing down the competition is short-sighted and ultimately a losing proposition. Take the long view, or you may find yourself a lonelier person than before.

I used to believe this almost unreservedly, but as I said before I feel I was proved wrong in that regard. The best spin I can put on it is that it may not work for the women I'd ultimately be better off in a relationship with.

Hector, I wonder if in your example that the relational aggression you experienced really wasn't the nail in the coffin as far as you were concerned, but really just something that happened while she was making her decision, and that ultimately she overlooked instead of something that factored into her thinking. If you reacted badly to the threat, this may have been something she considered (rather than the insult/insinuation itself), but in the end, I have a hard time believing a woman could be so easily manipulated in a game that women as a whole play a whole lot better than most men, let alone AS folks. I really don't think it was the main factor, and yeah, like you said, you probably don't want her anyways if that really made the difference.

All I'm saying here is that if it's really that much of a turn-off to women in general, then it should have been a factor in the decision. I'm not sure if it was something that particularly endeared him to her, but for all I know it may well have been.

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe she liked him in spite of it. Like it wasn't a positive that he slammed you, but the other things about him in her mind outweighed that fault. We don't have to be faultless for women to like us, we just have to have the right qualities outweigh the bad. But yeah, who knows, maybe she's mean and she likes that. Definitely not a good person to date, if that is true.

Not.True.
Yes its about supply and demand but you're not considering the demand factor. The demand for females is higher than the demand for males. SO MUCH so that even if the supply of women==that of men, women are ALWAYS going to be picker than men about who them hook up with. It never ceases to amaze me how undesirable females can get sex on demand w/out having to barter for it(as in seeing a hustler).

I would agree with both of you --

Rynok's assertion that it is a numbers game is correct, in that the larger the sample size of women you meet, the better chance you'll have of meeting someone who is into you. Too many guys (especially socially phobic ones) obsess about "winning" one or two women out of maybe five they met for the year, when in reality maybe only 10 out of 100 women you'll meet will be into you realistically, and out of those, even less will be compatible. It's really just a matter of getting out there, getting a bigger sample size/exposures, and then working on the conversion ratio, just like Sales.

And to an Haliphron's point, it is women who make the choice about which guys they like, and not vice versa, because true enough, the demand is always higher on the male side for women than vice versa, at least until women hit around 30 and start getting desperate to get married and have kids, at which point the power balance shifts to the male side. That being said, the ugliest woman you know can still find someone to have sex with her for free in 5 minutes, while the ugliest man will never have that kind of success.

The key is just to meet a lot of women, figure out which ones show interest (by studying social cues and behavior), and work on those candidates. It's all about sample size, and the bigger the sample, the higher the number of women you will meet that will work out for you. Say your conversion rate is 1% (which would be pretty low) -- if you only meet 100 women in your life, that means you'll only have one GF. But if you meet 500 women a year, that's five women a year who are dating candidates. Adjust the % upwards (through improving your image, your assets, your social skills), things get even better. Just like a salesperson who hones his skills and generates tons of leads, you make your own luck and success.