NT woman at her wit's end with her male Aspie friend

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It does seem to me that he is easily angered or frustrated when it comes to "feelings."

Some spouses and parents of Aspies have suggested the fact he's stayed in contact with me after my raising such stressful topics means he likes me a great deal.



Honestly, I think he was attracted to me in a romantic way at first but not now. In the beginning he flirted with me and complimented me, but once my faults became apparent (I was late), he stopped that behavior. Or, perhaps the fact that I have been open and accepting makes him think I would be a girlfriend if he wanted me as one?

Some months later, after he, Aspie friend ("AF") accidentally met a guy I was casually seeing (I'll refer to him as "CS"), he ridiculed CS to me for the rest of the weekend. In fact, AF spent the whole 4 day weekend with me! (That had not been planned, it just kinda happened.) Then, five days later he emailed me and told me he'd been getting many invitations to holiday parties, more than ever before. That message struck me as odd because he'd never told me about any specifics regarding his social life but once he actually saw my social life, he had to make sure I became aware of his.

My point is that AF is a very competitive person and I think his negative reaction to CS had more to do with wanting to win the game (being so rude to CS that he left my apartment and then a few days later informing me of his many party invitations) than actually having any feelings for me.



You see, it's the threat of him just disappearing that bothers me so. While I would be hurt if I "lost" him, I also think it's ridiculous that I have to watch how I act or what I do because he won't tell me that I'm doing something he finds offensive or hurtful. I don't know his rules and he isn't telling me what they are. It's as if I'm in a room with no light or sound but I'm expected to move about as if I know where the furniture is.



I think I should just say I want to be friends and leave it at that. Knowing him and his extreme aversion to being perceived as vulnerable, he'll just say something along these lines,"You say that as if you thought I wanted something more. I don't, of course. You do have quite an imagination."

Then, depending on what he actually wanted, he'll either stay in my life or leave.

Oh, sorry. AF= Aspie friend.

rather then disect the quotes I'll just go in order

1. Sometimes no means yes. basically he might think there is some hidden meaning in what you say. Young aspies dont know how to tell when this happens from lack of experience. Those that continue socializing though adulthood tend to figure it out

2. tied in with the first. You ask him if he likes you, he is probably trying to figure out why you are asking him

3. because 9 out of 10 times I'm right, they dont mean it. Plenty of times a girl only pretended to like me so she could later laugh at how stupid I was for believing her. At my age I probably dont have to worry about that, but thats alot of psychological damage to heal. Crap like this is what breaks most aspies emotionally

4. entirely possible. Depends on him. he could love the fact that, for once, he can be the one a girl is chasing. Or he could just be thinking you are picking on him. He might have had experiences like mine, or his relationships ended badly

5. Knowledge is power

Butterflair, thanks for all of your great advice and insight. While I'm sorry you've had a bad time this past fall, I'm happy to hear these friendships can last for long periods of time.



Yes, I learned the email-only rule during our last IM session. Before he disconnected, he said I could email him a "well thought-out" message explaining why I thought he was being unkind by not telling me what he wanted from our relationship. Of course, by then we'd gone round and round for at least 15 minutes, and he'd told me I was annoying and that messaging me was pointless so I was too flustered to think he was serious about the email. I thought he was blowing me off and had just added in some patronization for extra measure.

A few days later I did write an email explaining my point of view. I didn't ask him to answer anything at that point. I just wanted to get the message across and get the tension out of the way. I got a reply within 6 hours : )



At some point I will try something like that.

Unfortunately, in our IM chat I did say something like "please tell me, I just want to know because I don't want to hurt you." Of course, in my mind that meant that I didn't want him hurt, but based on past events I can see him interpreting it in a different way.



Oh, yes, definitely!

Well, it's a good thing that worked out...

That whole tendency to prefer written messages and the allowance of a time delay is crucial to some aspies... the presence of a long-term memory combined with an inability to immediately make an evaluation of a given social situation often leads to a delay in processing, so instead of immediately being able to respond to certain questions as an NT would, the average aspie is actually unable to respond, meaning that they absolutely need that extra time to even figure out what is going on...

Toad:

This makes a lot of sense. Both times he's said something along the lines of, "I don't understand your question," or, "Your question makes no sense." Of course, I've seen him deflect so many questions that I just assumed he was stalling or trying to put me off, which I still think he was, but on the other hand he wasn't lying either

For Toad and aeroz:


First, I saw those girls, and yes, they were terrible.

Second, AF is just over 30 y/o, so that fact combined with his very successful professional and academic career made me forget that he could have been and still may feel quite vulnerable in certain situations.

Third, sadly, this explains why he's been too interested in the fact that some of my possessions have been gifts, has asked me if I often ask favors of my friends or housemates, and had a rather strong response to some comment I made about having some friends who made exceptions for me (I meant that they were tolerant of me, not that I as a woman had my male friends wrapped around my finger).

aeroz:


That all makes sense and also, recently (as in the past month or so), I said something like, "Well, now that I realize that you actually like me," and he replied, "Oh, you've finally figured that out."

I could see him wondering why I'm apparently insecure about this. In his mind, if he spends time with me, he likes me.



I can't help but think he's enjoying the attention, which I don't mind but maybe the fact that he's refused to answer the question twice means he simply isn't interested in anything further.

Thanks,
Recently

Last edited by RecentlyBookmarked on 27 Jan 2009, 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

In a sense, he is stalling when he does that, but not for the purpose someone else would stall for... while the average person would stall with the intent of dropping the question entirely and making you eventually forget about it, an aspie will do so for extra time to think about it all, and in most cases will get back to you about it after he actually has a response...


This is fairly common... many aspies can bring certain skill sets into certain forms of employment that can, at the very least, compensate for the diminished social ability, and the success will often come despite the social issues, but said issues will still be very much present...


You might want to tell him that. Aspies are notorious for making (usually wrong) assumptions to fill in gaps in social information that cannot be determined thanks to the aspie's diminished ability to "read" someone else the way NT's do...

Imo he sounsd like a jerk towards you.
All this trouble and you arent even a couple yet. Imagen what it would be like in a relationship, on the long run.

And if he has to get so upset of you asking him, then it's really not worth it, but then again, this is my opinion

Yeah...even if this did make it to 'relationship' status, would he just mentally 'check out' everytime you brought up a subject he didn't like?

I have AS, but I would NEVER spontaneously end an IM conversation just because someone asked if I liked them. Even in situations where some random strangers from the middle east were pestering me for my phone number, I still managed to end the conversation politely. And then blocked them.

You actually know this guy, and he's treating you like this. I don't even think that *I* would be able to put up with it. And I have a high tolerance for game-play and disappointment.

Tias

Yes, I think he's abusing my kindness.



Both of you are making an excellent point and none of the facts about his treatment of me have been forgotten. I couldn't forget it if I wanted to. His behavior changed drastically, and for the better, after he brought up the subject of AS, however the disconnecting during the infamous chat session has probably been too much for me.

As I said in the subject line, I'm at my wit's end with him.

Just for the record, I don't think I want him as a BF, it's more that I just needed to know what the heck he wanted out of the relationship. I suppose I was asking him to set the tone so that I'd know how to proceed. Although I will admit, I am offended that two other women were "good enough" to officially become his GFs but I am not, LOL. My ego amuses me

So, if anybody has any suggestions as to how I can gracefully distance myself and/or explain to him how hurt I am and why I'd be grateful for any tips. And yes, I realize he'll probably "disappear" but I've given him a lot of my time and energy and have already let him cross too many boundaries.

Dussel, thanks for your advice. I admire the work you and your NT have done.

I think I've been very flexible and open with AF and yet it seems that no matter how far I go to "meet" him, he rarely wants to meet me. This relationship feels like I'm doing all the work. If I said something like, "I need something less abstract," well, I would predict him telling me that that was my problem. It just seems that no matter how or in what way I phrase certain things, he becomes extremely defensive.

If he were another NT I'd conclude he was extremely afraid of rejection and the kind of person who will create an argument or fight to drive the other person away because, in his mind, they are going to go away sooner or later anyway. With him, he could be trying to make me angry enough to finally leave. However, unlike most NTs I've known, they actually want me and frankly I don't think this is about me at all, I think it's about his comfort. Otherwise, why would he treat me so badly yet accept my invitations, spend time with me, etc? Honestly, I think the attention he gets from me is much more about ego massage than feeling any sort of real connection with me. Silly me, I actually thought we had some sort of intellectual intimacy.



It's possible that he may understand it intellectually, and he would say that he was fine with me doing whatever I like, but truly, I think he may be too emotionally immature to accept it. His reaction to meeting a guy I was casually seeing was quite negative and as I said in another post, he's ridiculed him to me on many occasions since.



I'd of course like a long term friendship but he seems unable or unwilling to help me understand. For example, it took well over 6 months just for him to tell me that he's better with email than IM or face-to-face for certain subjects. Time and time again I break rules before I knew there were any.

At any rate, thanks for your insight and advice. I can't see that this guy and I can have much of a friendship but learning about AS and the ways in which the human mind can work in so many different ways has has a profound effect on how I understand this planet ; )

A thought: he needs you to communicate bluntly, as you have - he will also respond bluntly and without social kindness or tact. He may not understand what you mean if he doesn't define relationships in the same terms you do. He sounds very sensitive, very self-centered, very narrowly focused - not negative traits when in balance, and not uncommon in those on the spectrum from the experiences related by others. Not an easy road. Use tangible explanations, and try to use terms that are clearly defined. My fiance and I largely have arguments over miscommunication or semantics, often the same in one issue.


M.

Thanks for your advice. If I had a better idea of what his level of commitment could be, I'd continue down this road. But I'm ambivalent.

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I'm going to just throw myself into the fire right now and ask some blunt questions of those who have replied:

If he writes to me and answers my email, spends a fair amount of time with me in person (then kinda disappears for 5-15 days), he does indeed like me, does he not?

Why does he put in that time and energy? What does he get out of it?

Why the games? Are they tests? If they are tests, is there an actual chance that I can pass or are they more about his amusement?

Based on several of the replies I've gotten here, I'm beginning to think that despite the fact I've never been a manipulative, pretty girl type, he very well may see me as someone like that. I'm astonished at the mistrust expressed in these forums, though based on all of your experiences I see why you're careful to avoid appearing vulnerable. Well before the subject of AS ever came up, my perception of him was that of a person putting on a very cool exterior but who had a great deal of emotion or, for want of a better word, "energy," just beneath the surface. (Of course, I'm a girly NT, so I'm in the perfect position to project ) Is there any way that I can fix my reputation?

Yes. Disappearing for a number of days may just be an aspie's way of handling the emotional content of a relationship... many aspies often act as "capacitors" for emotion, in that they easily let emotions build up inside without expressing them, mainly because they don't know how to in a way that is both socially acceptable and gets the burden of emotion off of the aspie... The build-up can occur over a period of days or even weeks if left unchecked. When the aspie finally releases said emotion (and it need not necessarily be entirely negative emotion, merely powerful and complex will do), the resulting outburst can be harmful to himself and those around and/or close to him... to this end, many aspies that realize the damage such outbursts can cause need a period of time to safely dissipate those emotions, and it can be as long as 5-15 days, after which the built up static charge will no longer be primed to go off...


Into the relationship? Well, from what I can tell of what you told me, he loves you...


It's not a game, or a test. It's not for his amusement, or for your torture. It's for his survival... well, at the very least, for his emotional health...


That is a very serious issue to contend with... aspies are often hurt by the more manipulative elements in the NT world (especially girls) during high school and/or college, and, being hurt so much will cause anyone to develop an instinctual reaction to avoid being hurt again...

Take it this way: When I was a freshman in high school, I dropped a 45 pound weight on my foot at the gym. It wasn't seriously hurt, but I did have to have a cast on it for about a week. Since then my foot has developed a reflex to dodge anything that may be falling towards it, even if I barely see it in my peripheral vision... The same principle applies to emotional damage: if an aspie is taken advantage of by a certain manipulative subset of a population, he will assume that all of the population is manipulative right off the bat, just to be certain...

The best way to handle this will require a significant amount of patience... you need to always be honest with him, even at the expense of social niceties. If you have to change your plans and you cant meet him at a prespecified time and place for whatever reason, let him know ASAP, and if possible the reason behind it. It may take months, or even years (especially if he was subject to manipulation by girls over a period of many years), but eventually he will come around...

That's what I thought too.



In and of itself, the cooling off time he seemed to take after a period of a lot of communication with me (email, IM or in person) didn't offend me in the least. I myself appreciate solitude, but that behavior combined with the other traits which I did not understand did offend me. It appeared to be the classic "hot and cold" behavior of a person who doesn't take others seriously.

I think I was aware of the potential for an outburst from quite early on in our friendship. As I said, there was a palpable emotion or high-strung energy underneath the armor. (Ha! I'm quite outwardly high-strung. Maybe that is part of the attraction?)

How do these outbursts manifest? Is that too broad a question? It probably depends on the person as to how they decompress.



Yes, I meant the relationship.

And I have been telling the truth about us.



Can you elaborate? RE for his survival/ emotional health? (Yes, it does feel like torture on my end, I have to admit that's the perfect word.)




Excellent analogy.



This seems straightforward enough. As I stated in my original post, my lateness caused a huge problem early in our relationship. From his point of view, he was probably taking quite a risk by agreeing to meet me at all after that. In fact, based on what you've explained, he's taken several.

Thanks for explaining this to me. I like your style of communication.

Well the behavior, for all intents and purposes, is the "hot and cold" behavior, but not for the same reason of "not taking it seriously"...

Yes, it does. One of the trademarks of AS is the aspie meltdown. Think of it as blowing off steam to the 2 billionth power... a cascade of incredibly intense emotion that makes absolutely no sense in a given situation (because it is a release of emotions built up over a longer period of time)... Some aspies will internalize it, and completely withdraw from all socialization for long periods of time (may be what is going on here), while others will, well, blow up in your face. I myself got into so much trouble in middle school for having a tendency to get incredibly violent for seemingly no reason... which lasted through my first 2 years of high school when I was finally able to control it and learn enough about what NT's deem "acceptable" to be able to release emotion in a safe manner...


Aspies often have great difficulty processing emotional input, and as such will set it aside to process later when they're not receiving even more of such input (i.e. when they're alone...) There are a great deal of emotional concepts that aspies just cannot understand on their own...

Probably the best thing for you to do is, when he trusts you a bit more, you can sit there and let him talk. If he can just speak out on what is troubling him, even if the issue makes absolutely no sense to you, it will help him feel more connected to you, and in the end he will spend more time with you.

Another thing you could do is send him on over to us here on wrongplanet. The aspies around here are on all different points of being able to socialize, so some of us can explain to him why certain things happen in the NT world, etc.


No problem. As I always say, if I can't find love for myself, I can at least find it for other people...