Lying to Attract a Mate
10 Dec 2010, 2:35 pm
Jono wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Jono wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
dating someone online: my AS would sure as hell be on my profile, because the profile is supposed to be a way of presenting as much honest information as possible at-a-glance. if i am putting my body type, education, eye colour (and even income) on there, then hiding my AS is frankly dishonest.
Should people admit on their dating profiles if they're recovering alcoholics too? Because that's a far better comparison to admitting you've AS than giving your body type, education etc. You seem to have missed the point that much of the turn-off to people with AS is due to prejudice and preconceived notions of what that means in the long run, which is not the case with any of the other things you've mentioned.
You've seen my profile, do you think I was dishonest? I've tried to mention ways AS affects me in my profile without saying I've got Asperger's explicitly. Additionally, I have never told a single lie in my profile. If you had followed the link I posted earlier, you would of seen that Asperger's is a loaded term.
i have seen people admit that very thing on their profiles - or go to dating sites specifically for recovering alcoholics.
i can tell that there is something "different" in your profile, but i would not have guessed AS. i don't know what enough aspies look like "on paper" to have figured that out.
to a bunch of you (not just Jono) - what i think is important to remember is that you (plural) are approaching this from the perspective of how the world should operate if it was a fair place. it isn't a fair place, especially when it comes to dating. we are approaching this from the perspective of knowing what worked and didn't work for men in dating situations with us. people with our experiences would not necessarily universally agree, but i'm putting that out there. there is thread after thread after thread in this section from men looking for advice on dating, and we are expressing that if you lie or hide your true self at the outset, it creates a bad situation.
Can you please explain to me how revealing my diagnosis of AS is in any way more honest than explaining how the AS affects me personally? Especially since the words Asperger Syndrome could be associated with everything from lack of empathy to having frequent "irrational" meltdowns which isn't even an accurate picture of most aspies? I don't want the person to guess I've got AS, I want to explain the effect AS has on me specifically before revealing I have AS. If I explain the symptoms without using the name, how is that the same as hiding it?
i don't know, because you haven't really explained it on your profile, so i'm not sure what you are asking.
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10 Dec 2010, 2:41 pm
ci wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHvgAJe8bvM&feature=artistob&playnext=1&list=TLI925HL2VduE[/youtube]
My professional job is advocacy and I do not think of myself as autistic but simply human being. That is a far cry from labeling myself which I did not and actively speak against identity related diagnoses. I believe it is a distraction. How you view autism is part of the study of sociology relevantly and my paper would reflect this. Ethically it is socially pressured typically to disclose STD's and it I do not believe would reach toward an atypical status less it is by means of stereotypic and prejudice that mating would entail the disclose of the obvious in the form of an artificial concept imposed upon how I was born.
By the end of the paper I feel confident that any intellectual and any laymen should there be two different versions would deflect the disclosure of the obvious behavioral and mental differences which are manifest in day to day life. All in all a focus upon differences instead of merging into the grand melting pot of what is in a diverse society like America is potentially estranging and unhealthy, least unnatural manifest of 3rd party criterion. It is important that despite societies reasons to diagnose every individual is allowed to experience normal as everyone else otherwise it is an unnecessary prejudice and does not need to be treated in any way similar to a reproductive disease like HIV.
I am very confident about this politically.
My professional job is advocacy and I do not think of myself as autistic but simply human being. That is a far cry from labeling myself which I did not and actively speak against identity related diagnoses. I believe it is a distraction. How you view autism is part of the study of sociology relevantly and my paper would reflect this. Ethically it is socially pressured typically to disclose STD's and it I do not believe would reach toward an atypical status less it is by means of stereotypic and prejudice that mating would entail the disclose of the obvious in the form of an artificial concept imposed upon how I was born.
By the end of the paper I feel confident that any intellectual and any laymen should there be two different versions would deflect the disclosure of the obvious behavioral and mental differences which are manifest in day to day life. All in all a focus upon differences instead of merging into the grand melting pot of what is in a diverse society like America is potentially estranging and unhealthy, least unnatural manifest of 3rd party criterion. It is important that despite societies reasons to diagnose every individual is allowed to experience normal as everyone else otherwise it is an unnecessary prejudice and does not need to be treated in any way similar to a reproductive disease like HIV.
I am very confident about this politically.
your argument would only make sense if you were not publicly labelling yourself by listing it on your WP profile, accessing any community resources as a person with autism, and advocating for people in the community as an openly autistic person (presumably people in the community have been told by you that you are autistic). you are attaching the word "autism" to yourself, and thereby labelling yourself with that.
if you kept that diagnosis private and did not tell anyone ever, then your argument would make sense. but in fact you are using the autistic designation as a means to fulfill the ends that you desire. the flip side of that is that you don't want to lose control of how the designation or label is used, but because keeping only certain people from knowing - when it seems that your diagnosis is truly public knowledge - is quite dishonest.
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10 Dec 2010, 2:49 pm
ci wrote:
hyperlexian
Your focusing on a pathology which is not relevant to the static argument. Try to stay on topic. I really do need to get to work now but I will respond to you later.
Your focusing on a pathology which is not relevant to the static argument. Try to stay on topic. I really do need to get to work now but I will respond to you later.
you're funny!
i am focusing on the OP's exact argument (and topic!) - Lying to Attract a Mate.
you don't have to address me at all if you don't want to. this is, after all, teh interwebz and we will never, ever truly convince each other of our perspectives. i think that if we were on the fence we could possible influence each other, but since we are already diametrically opposed there is no potential that either of us will be swayed.
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10 Dec 2010, 2:55 pm
It is your choice and your thoughts which make it to where ethically you need to disclose a 3rd party definition of how you are. I was supposed to leave 30 minutes ago. It does not matter as ultimately your personal choices are your personal choices. In the affair of ethics, morality and societal standards there is no obligation ethically or morally less it is of prejudices accepted by a minority or not to disclose a developmental difference. It would compromise diversity on a level given that the portrayal of autism is adverse to the self-identity which others choose to partake in or not. Love is natural and love does not need for someone to disclose how one is if they are in fact being whom they are. Just seems senseless.
10 Dec 2010, 3:07 pm
ci wrote:
It is your choice and your thoughts which make it to where ethically you need to disclose a 3rd party definition of how you are. I was supposed to leave 30 minutes ago. It does not matter as ultimately your personal choices are your personal choices. In the affair of ethics, morality and societal standards there is no obligation ethically or morally less it is of prejudices accepted by a minority or not to disclose a developmental difference. It would compromise diversity on a level given that the portrayal of autism is adverse to the self-identity which others choose to partake in or not. Love is natural and love does not need for someone to disclose how one is if they are in fact being whom they are. Just seems senseless.
to you, it might seem senseless. but to others, it does not.
it would not compromise diversity to encourage people to disclose their disabilities - if more people disclosed all of their issues, more diversity would be accepted by the greater society. it is by hiding our differences that we subject ourselves to the idea that different is bad. we can only change the world if we change our own attitudes, and i think that trying to suppress our differences undermines the movement towards acceptance.
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10 Dec 2010, 3:16 pm
hyperlexian wrote:
Jono wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Jono wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
dating someone online: my AS would sure as hell be on my profile, because the profile is supposed to be a way of presenting as much honest information as possible at-a-glance. if i am putting my body type, education, eye colour (and even income) on there, then hiding my AS is frankly dishonest.
Should people admit on their dating profiles if they're recovering alcoholics too? Because that's a far better comparison to admitting you've AS than giving your body type, education etc. You seem to have missed the point that much of the turn-off to people with AS is due to prejudice and preconceived notions of what that means in the long run, which is not the case with any of the other things you've mentioned.
You've seen my profile, do you think I was dishonest? I've tried to mention ways AS affects me in my profile without saying I've got Asperger's explicitly. Additionally, I have never told a single lie in my profile. If you had followed the link I posted earlier, you would of seen that Asperger's is a loaded term.
i have seen people admit that very thing on their profiles - or go to dating sites specifically for recovering alcoholics.
i can tell that there is something "different" in your profile, but i would not have guessed AS. i don't know what enough aspies look like "on paper" to have figured that out.
to a bunch of you (not just Jono) - what i think is important to remember is that you (plural) are approaching this from the perspective of how the world should operate if it was a fair place. it isn't a fair place, especially when it comes to dating. we are approaching this from the perspective of knowing what worked and didn't work for men in dating situations with us. people with our experiences would not necessarily universally agree, but i'm putting that out there. there is thread after thread after thread in this section from men looking for advice on dating, and we are expressing that if you lie or hide your true self at the outset, it creates a bad situation.
Can you please explain to me how revealing my diagnosis of AS is in any way more honest than explaining how the AS affects me personally? Especially since the words Asperger Syndrome could be associated with everything from lack of empathy to having frequent "irrational" meltdowns which isn't even an accurate picture of most aspies? I don't want the person to guess I've got AS, I want to explain the effect AS has on me specifically before revealing I have AS. If I explain the symptoms without using the name, how is that the same as hiding it?
i don't know, because you haven't really explained it on your profile, so i'm not sure what you are asking.
Maybe not explicitly, but on my profile, I did say that I had a "small circle of friends", meaning that I have and don't make many friends (sort of an aspie trait but I was advised that it sounded better than saying I had very few friends). I also said that "I mostly prefer to spend time alone than to go out with friends" (not only because socialising can get tiring for me, but also because the noise and lights bother me if I have to go to those kind of places - both this kind of asocial behaviour and sensory issues are Asperger traits). That was also why I tried to attract someone with the profile who I could sit down and have a chat to rather than someone who's very social. I suppose the fact that I said I like discussing specific topics could also be an Asperger symptom because those are my special interests. I can't think of many more behaviours that would affect me in the short term. So I thought that those statements do tend to explain away some of my behaviours due to AS but without me mentioning the word AS. I was saying that I don't know what's wrong with doing that in the profile at first then mentioning the AS later, after I start dating.
10 Dec 2010, 3:17 pm
hyperlexian wrote:
ci wrote:
It is your choice and your thoughts which make it to where ethically you need to disclose a 3rd party definition of how you are. I was supposed to leave 30 minutes ago. It does not matter as ultimately your personal choices are your personal choices. In the affair of ethics, morality and societal standards there is no obligation ethically or morally less it is of prejudices accepted by a minority or not to disclose a developmental difference. It would compromise diversity on a level given that the portrayal of autism is adverse to the self-identity which others choose to partake in or not. Love is natural and love does not need for someone to disclose how one is if they are in fact being whom they are. Just seems senseless.
to you, it might seem senseless. but to others, it does not.
it would not compromise diversity to encourage people to disclose their disabilities - if more people disclosed all of their issues, more diversity would be accepted by the greater society. it is by hiding our differences that we subject ourselves to the idea that different is bad. we can only change the world if we change our own attitudes, and i think that trying to suppress our differences undermines the movement towards acceptance.
Fine I have permitted this discussion as part of my job and assigned someone else to do what I wanted to do.
You are speaking of politics of disclosure and in a philosophic and political way merging it with everyday behavior. Autism is not a loss of a leg which is utterly obvious. So autism in it's manifestation can be very subjective and diverse warranting nothing other then a disability manifesting as one is. It is politics and awareness and not ethics and morality then which are your driving social psychological need for disclosure. Hence there is no universal ethical or moral need as the manifest disability or difference is every day life especially in close relationships in which the partner will come to know of these differences.
It is your choice to in your behavior proceed as you wish but as soon as this politic might be enticed to become standardized any mandated disclosure is against the nature of human rights and common dignities.
10 Dec 2010, 3:22 pm
hyperlexian wrote:
[it would not compromise diversity to encourage people to disclose their disabilities - if more people disclosed all of their issues, more diversity would be accepted by the greater society.
I wish that greater society would accept us if we disclosed our diagnosis but it won't and it doesn't work like that. I don't even tell my friends I've got AS until I know them well enough. Again, have you followed that link to the Delphi Forums I posted earlier. I edited my post just before the last one to ask you that question.
10 Dec 2010, 3:35 pm
Jono wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i don't know, because you haven't really explained it on your profile, so i'm not sure what you are asking.
Maybe not explicitly, but on my profile, I did say that I had a "small circle of friends", meaning that I have and don't make many friends (sort of an aspie trait but I was advised that it sounded better than saying I had very few friends). I also said that "I mostly prefer to spend time alone than to go out with friends" (not only because socialising can get tiring for me, but also because the noise and lights bother me if I have to go to those kind of places - both this kind of asocial behaviour and sensory issues are Asperger traits). That was also why I tried to attract someone with the profile who I could sit down and have a chat to rather than someone who's very social. I suppose the fact that I said I like discussing specific topics could also be an Asperger symptom because those are my special interests. I can't think of many more behaviours that would affect me in the short term. So I thought that those statements do tend to explain away some of my behaviours due to AS but without me mentioning the word AS. I was saying that I don't know what's wrong with doing that in the profile at first then mentioning the AS later, after I start dating.
"small circle of friends" and "I mostly prefer to spend time alone than to go out with friends" does not indicate AS at all. it doesn't even hint at AS. it hints that you are similar to approximately 50% of the population. it would not really prepare an individual for dating a person who has AS.
it is your manner on your profile that comes across as "different": formal, unenthusiastic, very overtly "normal".
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10 Dec 2010, 3:40 pm
Jono wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
[it would not compromise diversity to encourage people to disclose their disabilities - if more people disclosed all of their issues, more diversity would be accepted by the greater society.
I wish that greater society would accept us if we disclosed our diagnosis but it won't and it doesn't work like that. I don't even tell my friends I've got AS until I know them well enough. Again, have you followed that link to the Delphi Forums I posted earlier. I edited my post just before the last one to ask you that question.
how do you know if people will accept you at the outset if you don't tell them until later on? i had an adult diagnosis and i took a chance to tell people about it, and the response has been not at all judgemental (and it certainly has not prevented me from getting offers of a sexual or romantic nature in spite of my living situation). perhaps you are prejudging how people will respond.
anyone who accepts the drivel in a forum like that as being fact is not worth dating. so in fact it could be a valuable screening tool to eliminate any people who would judge you like that.
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10 Dec 2010, 3:45 pm
hyperlexian wrote:
Jono wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i don't know, because you haven't really explained it on your profile, so i'm not sure what you are asking.
Maybe not explicitly, but on my profile, I did say that I had a "small circle of friends", meaning that I have and don't make many friends (sort of an aspie trait but I was advised that it sounded better than saying I had very few friends). I also said that "I mostly prefer to spend time alone than to go out with friends" (not only because socialising can get tiring for me, but also because the noise and lights bother me if I have to go to those kind of places - both this kind of asocial behaviour and sensory issues are Asperger traits). That was also why I tried to attract someone with the profile who I could sit down and have a chat to rather than someone who's very social. I suppose the fact that I said I like discussing specific topics could also be an Asperger symptom because those are my special interests. I can't think of many more behaviours that would affect me in the short term. So I thought that those statements do tend to explain away some of my behaviours due to AS but without me mentioning the word AS. I was saying that I don't know what's wrong with doing that in the profile at first then mentioning the AS later, after I start dating.
"small circle of friends" and "I mostly prefer to spend time alone than to go out with friends" does not indicate AS at all. it doesn't even hint at AS. it hints that you are similar to approximately 50% of the population. it would not really prepare an individual for dating a person who has AS.
it is your manner on your profile that comes across as "different": formal, unenthusiastic, very overtly "normal".
What do you propose I write there then? I've already explained may times why I do not want to specifically put AS in my profile. And once again: HAVE YOU FOLLOWED THAT LINK I POSTED EARLIER ON IN THE THREAD?! !!
10 Dec 2010, 3:46 pm
ci wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
ci wrote:
It is your choice and your thoughts which make it to where ethically you need to disclose a 3rd party definition of how you are. I was supposed to leave 30 minutes ago. It does not matter as ultimately your personal choices are your personal choices. In the affair of ethics, morality and societal standards there is no obligation ethically or morally less it is of prejudices accepted by a minority or not to disclose a developmental difference. It would compromise diversity on a level given that the portrayal of autism is adverse to the self-identity which others choose to partake in or not. Love is natural and love does not need for someone to disclose how one is if they are in fact being whom they are. Just seems senseless.
to you, it might seem senseless. but to others, it does not.
it would not compromise diversity to encourage people to disclose their disabilities - if more people disclosed all of their issues, more diversity would be accepted by the greater society. it is by hiding our differences that we subject ourselves to the idea that different is bad. we can only change the world if we change our own attitudes, and i think that trying to suppress our differences undermines the movement towards acceptance.
Fine I have permitted this discussion as part of my job and assigned someone else to do what I wanted to do.
You are speaking of politics of disclosure and in a philosophic and political way merging it with everyday behavior. Autism is not a loss of a leg which is utterly obvious. So autism in it's manifestation can be very subjective and diverse warranting nothing other then a disability manifesting as one is. It is politics and awareness and not ethics and morality then which are your driving social psychological need for disclosure. Hence there is no universal ethical or moral need as the manifest disability or difference is every day life especially in close relationships in which the partner will come to know of these differences.
It is your choice to in your behavior proceed as you wish but as soon as this politic might be enticed to become standardized any mandated disclosure is against the nature of human rights and common dignities.
that (bolded) is a huge assumption that does not have any basis in reality, considering that there is no legislation on the table.
yes, autism is subjective. a person could disclose it on their profile with an explanantion of what it means for them, which would provide some explanation for potential partners. i also said previously that it would be acceptable to disclose it on the first date or during pre-date communications.
the bottom line is that many many people complain quite vociferously about their lack of dating success, and specifically thier lack of ability to get a second date. we are offering a solution - honesty - that could help with that. because if you are honest upfront, the you can be certain that you are on a date with someone who is aware of your diagnosis and can accept you as you are.
but again, nobody is insisting that it become mandatory, ever.
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10 Dec 2010, 3:49 pm
Jono wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Jono wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i don't know, because you haven't really explained it on your profile, so i'm not sure what you are asking.
Maybe not explicitly, but on my profile, I did say that I had a "small circle of friends", meaning that I have and don't make many friends (sort of an aspie trait but I was advised that it sounded better than saying I had very few friends). I also said that "I mostly prefer to spend time alone than to go out with friends" (not only because socialising can get tiring for me, but also because the noise and lights bother me if I have to go to those kind of places - both this kind of asocial behaviour and sensory issues are Asperger traits). That was also why I tried to attract someone with the profile who I could sit down and have a chat to rather than someone who's very social. I suppose the fact that I said I like discussing specific topics could also be an Asperger symptom because those are my special interests. I can't think of many more behaviours that would affect me in the short term. So I thought that those statements do tend to explain away some of my behaviours due to AS but without me mentioning the word AS. I was saying that I don't know what's wrong with doing that in the profile at first then mentioning the AS later, after I start dating.
"small circle of friends" and "I mostly prefer to spend time alone than to go out with friends" does not indicate AS at all. it doesn't even hint at AS. it hints that you are similar to approximately 50% of the population. it would not really prepare an individual for dating a person who has AS.
it is your manner on your profile that comes across as "different": formal, unenthusiastic, very overtly "normal".
What do you propose I write there then? I've already explained may times why I do not want to specifically put AS in my profile. And once again: HAVE YOU FOLLOWED THAT LINK I POSTED EARLIER ON IN THE THREAD?! !!
why are you yelling? of course i did (otherwise why would i have mentioned it?), but at the end of the link was a bunch of angry people. you can find those everywhere on the internet. search for cat haters and dog haters and you will find the same drivel. they are not to be taken seriously, and any potential date who who does take that kind of forum seriously is not worth dating (i.e. shallow).
i propose that you write that you have AS. take it or leave it, but there is no reason to shout.
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10 Dec 2010, 4:01 pm
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWnIEHVoiXg[/youtube]
It was stated it would be unethical and in so many words estranging in a relationship to not disclose a diagnoses of autism. Spin spin spin. If you want to win the conversation and do not want to rationalize the discourse fine. I'll let you win because the primary argument is being overlooked and so on. It's a waste of time to persist.
I will post one more time at least on this forum with a partial analysis of the compartmentalized identity of the label vs. the natural self organic of this label.
10 Dec 2010, 4:11 pm
hyperlexian wrote:
[but at the end of the link was a bunch of angry people. you can find those everywhere on the internet. search for cat haters and dog haters and you will find the same drivel. they are not to be taken seriously, and any potential date who who does take that kind of forum seriously is not worth dating (i.e. shallow).
.
.
So if a woman has never heard of Aspergers Syndrome and that forum is what she finds when she googles, and she takes it seriously, she is therefore shallow? How is she supposed to know it's drivel? You are assuming that any woman who isn't shallow will just inherently know to disbelieve what she reads because....because why? Because the posters on it are angry? You have insider knowledge of Aspergers Syndrome that lets you know that site is unreasonable. But to somebody with no such insider knowledge, there is no way of knowing it is unreasonable. And that's a danger that is a true concern to men here. There doesn't seem to be an equivalent site of NT men venting about AS women (at least that I could find) so the risk in disclosing straight up is less for AS women than AS men.
