Consequences in "why to ask first"
29 Aug 2014, 1:05 pm
aspiemike wrote:
Eureka seems to indicate: asking could kill the mood. Just make a direct statement of what you would like in the right romantic moment. Not trying to put words in mouth. Just what I have interpreted.
I can recall a more positive response when I made a direct statement myself rather than asking.
I can recall a more positive response when I made a direct statement myself rather than asking.
To clarify: it's not the asking itself that could be a mood-killer, it's how the asking is done. In addition to statements of intent, which I've already said I like, I've also been asked in ways that definitely enhanced the moment. But I can see that to ask as a hesitant supplicant might be off-putting to some.
I can't personally vouch for that; I've never been asked in a way that killed the mood. I *have*, however, been grabbed and kissed without any warning whatsoever, in which case the date was over right then and there. I have walked home from dates, or called a friend to come pick me up, because of such maneuvers.
29 Aug 2014, 1:36 pm
i'd just like to add a thought, to all the guys offering "helpful" advice to the ladies here of how not to get raped or assaulted:
neither i, nor any of the women i've known personally in my life that are also suvivors of sexual assault, would have benefited from any of your advice, as i (and they) were assaulted by acquaintances in circumstances in which we should have already been "safe".
so unless you're willing to tell women "don't go anywhere ever (alone or in company), don't know anyone, don't drink anything (even with friends or people you think you can trust), and don't speak to anyone ever" then you can stop with the advice, because it's not helpful to most people who actually get assaulted.
my rapist was my best friend at the time's boyfriend, whose place she and i were staying at as we both were having problems at home and had no where else to go. i was also very ill at the time (feverish, vomiting, delirious). so tell me, what should i have done differently to avoid getting raped? should i not have had any friends, should i not have trusted a friend's boyfriend to not rape me when i was too sick to fight him off? should i have slept on the street instead of staying with them? should i have known better than to get feverish and sick around a man i obviously didn't know beforehand was a rapist? see how your "advice" falls apart in the real life circumstances that rapists exploit?
so from someone who's been through it all, and been told by all kinds of "helpful" guys how to avoid sexual assault: take your advice and shove it. then maybe have a talk with the dudes in your life about why it's not cool to take advantage of young girls when they are helpless instead of telling women how not to get raped, because it's inconsiderate, it's misinformed, it's damaging, and it's hurtful--basically you're not helping anyone but the rapists.
29 Aug 2014, 1:50 pm
TallyMan wrote:
^ If that post is aimed at me and my question earlier; then you have evaded the question again. So be it, if you don't want to answer it that is your choice.
i told you, i specifically don't have kids just so i don't have to explain to them that the world is full of rapists and pedophiles and so here are all the things people will tell you not to do to "protect yourself" from all the rapists and pedophiles, because some "helpful" dude will inform you afterwards about all the things you could have done differently so that it wouldn't be your fault that you got raped or diddled, because that's the kind of world we live in. then i would go and cry for a few hours and wonder why the f**k i ever had kids in such a sh***y world full of rapists and the know-it-all a**holes that protect them by reminding women that it's our fault when we get assaulted for not being careful.
happy now?
29 Aug 2014, 1:54 pm
starvingartist wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
^ If that post is aimed at me and my question earlier; then you have evaded the question again. So be it, if you don't want to answer it that is your choice.
i told you, i specifically don't have kids just so i don't have to explain to them that the world is full of rapists and pedophiles and so here are all the things people will tell you not to do to "protect yourself" from all the rapists and pedophiles, because some "helpful" dude will inform you afterwards about all the things you could have done differently so that it wouldn't be your fault that you got raped or diddled, because that's the kind of world we live in. then i would go and cry for a few hours and wonder why the f**k i ever had kids in such a sh***y world full of rapists and the know-it-all a**holes that protect them by reminding women that it's our fault when we get assaulted for not being careful.
happy now?
Not really, you still evaded the question, but I won't press any further. I have no desire to upset you further with what is obviously a painful subject for you.
_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.
29 Aug 2014, 1:58 pm
TallyMan wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
^ If that post is aimed at me and my question earlier; then you have evaded the question again. So be it, if you don't want to answer it that is your choice.
i told you, i specifically don't have kids just so i don't have to explain to them that the world is full of rapists and pedophiles and so here are all the things people will tell you not to do to "protect yourself" from all the rapists and pedophiles, because some "helpful" dude will inform you afterwards about all the things you could have done differently so that it wouldn't be your fault that you got raped or diddled, because that's the kind of world we live in. then i would go and cry for a few hours and wonder why the f**k i ever had kids in such a sh***y world full of rapists and the know-it-all a**holes that protect them by reminding women that it's our fault when we get assaulted for not being careful.
happy now?
Not really, you still evaded the question, but I won't press any further. I have no desire to upset you further with what is obviously a painful subject for you.
it's not painful--your condescension and belief that you know what you're talking about is actually not painful but infuriating. you are being inconsiderate to survivors by offering bad not helpful advice that reinforces that what happened to us is our fault for not being "careful" enough, and when survivors try to tell you that you dismiss them with the old "women are emotional unstable so don't poke the bear" clichéd response. and you're a mod here. pathetic.
29 Aug 2014, 2:02 pm
starvingartist wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
^ If that post is aimed at me and my question earlier; then you have evaded the question again. So be it, if you don't want to answer it that is your choice.
i told you, i specifically don't have kids just so i don't have to explain to them that the world is full of rapists and pedophiles and so here are all the things people will tell you not to do to "protect yourself" from all the rapists and pedophiles, because some "helpful" dude will inform you afterwards about all the things you could have done differently so that it wouldn't be your fault that you got raped or diddled, because that's the kind of world we live in. then i would go and cry for a few hours and wonder why the f**k i ever had kids in such a sh***y world full of rapists and the know-it-all a**holes that protect them by reminding women that it's our fault when we get assaulted for not being careful.
happy now?
Not really, you still evaded the question, but I won't press any further. I have no desire to upset you further with what is obviously a painful subject for you.
it's not painful--your condescension and belief that you know what you're talking about is actually not painful but infuriating. you are being inconsiderate to survivors by offering bad not helpful advice that reinforces that what happened to us is our fault for not being "careful" enough, and when survivors try to tell you that you dismiss them with the old "women are emotional unstable so don't poke the bear" clichéd response. and you're a mod here. pathetic.
Casting aside any advice I gave in the scenario I posed. My question was regarding what advice YOU would give to the teenager in the scenario. Anyway, I see further dialogue with you is pointless.
_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.
29 Aug 2014, 2:33 pm
Another quote from an article I posted earlier:
Quote:
At the crux of most of these complaints is the axiom that we should teach men not to rape instead of teaching women not to be raped. And that's an important message! Too much cultural focus for too long has been on how a women's own conduct contributed or may contribute to her assault, in a way that winds up absolving assailants of culpability.
But teaching men not to rape and helping women avoid rape aren't mutually exclusive options. It's been said so many times already so as to be a cliche, but no one accuses security cameras of encouraging "theft culture". And neither do most people blame theft victims for getting robbed just because they didn't have security cameras. This sort of surveillance is simply an extra precaution that some homeowners and businesses take, particularly if circumstances (living in a wealthy neighborhood that's often targeted, living in a high-crime neighborhood, etc.) suggest a higher likelihood of their property being robbed.
But teaching men not to rape and helping women avoid rape aren't mutually exclusive options. It's been said so many times already so as to be a cliche, but no one accuses security cameras of encouraging "theft culture". And neither do most people blame theft victims for getting robbed just because they didn't have security cameras. This sort of surveillance is simply an extra precaution that some homeowners and businesses take, particularly if circumstances (living in a wealthy neighborhood that's often targeted, living in a high-crime neighborhood, etc.) suggest a higher likelihood of their property being robbed.
_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.
- Rick Sanchez
29 Aug 2014, 2:38 pm
Dox47 wrote:
Another quote from an article I posted earlier:
Quote:
But teaching men not to rape and helping women avoid rape aren't mutually exclusive options.
^ This. Plus having suitable punishment for rapists and having a legal system and police force that acts quickly and in an appropriate manner too.
_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.
29 Aug 2014, 2:43 pm
starvingartist wrote:
i'd just like to add a thought, to all the guys offering "helpful" advice to the ladies here of how not to get raped or assaulted:
neither i, nor any of the women i've known personally in my life that are also suvivors of sexual assault, would have benefited from any of your advice, as i (and they) were assaulted by acquaintances in circumstances in which we should have already been "safe".
so unless you're willing to tell women "don't go anywhere ever (alone or in company), don't know anyone, don't drink anything (even with friends or people you think you can trust), and don't speak to anyone ever" then you can stop with the advice, because it's not helpful to most people who actually get assaulted.
my rapist was my best friend at the time's boyfriend, whose place she and i were staying at as we both were having problems at home and had no where else to go. i was also very ill at the time (feverish, vomiting, delirious). so tell me, what should i have done differently to avoid getting raped? should i not have had any friends, should i not have trusted a friend's boyfriend to not rape me when i was too sick to fight him off? should i have slept on the street instead of staying with them? should i have known better than to get feverish and sick around a man i obviously didn't know beforehand was a rapist? see how your "advice" falls apart in the real life circumstances that rapists exploit?
so from someone who's been through it all, and been told by all kinds of "helpful" guys how to avoid sexual assault: take your advice and shove it. then maybe have a talk with the dudes in your life about why it's not cool to take advantage of young girls when they are helpless instead of telling women how not to get raped, because it's inconsiderate, it's misinformed, it's damaging, and it's hurtful--basically you're not helping anyone but the rapists.
neither i, nor any of the women i've known personally in my life that are also suvivors of sexual assault, would have benefited from any of your advice, as i (and they) were assaulted by acquaintances in circumstances in which we should have already been "safe".
so unless you're willing to tell women "don't go anywhere ever (alone or in company), don't know anyone, don't drink anything (even with friends or people you think you can trust), and don't speak to anyone ever" then you can stop with the advice, because it's not helpful to most people who actually get assaulted.
my rapist was my best friend at the time's boyfriend, whose place she and i were staying at as we both were having problems at home and had no where else to go. i was also very ill at the time (feverish, vomiting, delirious). so tell me, what should i have done differently to avoid getting raped? should i not have had any friends, should i not have trusted a friend's boyfriend to not rape me when i was too sick to fight him off? should i have slept on the street instead of staying with them? should i have known better than to get feverish and sick around a man i obviously didn't know beforehand was a rapist? see how your "advice" falls apart in the real life circumstances that rapists exploit?
so from someone who's been through it all, and been told by all kinds of "helpful" guys how to avoid sexual assault: take your advice and shove it. then maybe have a talk with the dudes in your life about why it's not cool to take advantage of young girls when they are helpless instead of telling women how not to get raped, because it's inconsiderate, it's misinformed, it's damaging, and it's hurtful--basically you're not helping anyone but the rapists.
We've established two options for dealing with rape. The first: teach women to take precautions. The second: educate rapists not to rape.
The first is simply analogous to locking the door of one's house to not get robbed, and though it may not work in every circumstance, it provides a statistical edge; and as someone else pointed out, I don't know how likely you are to get raped if you carry a gun on your person, but I would bet the odds are lower than if you don't.
The second is, frankly, a fantasy. We don't educate murderers and thieves and expect them to just be better people. If someone was going to commit such a terrible crime in the first place, I sincerely doubt they will be receptive to "yeah bro, that's not cool, man". If you have serious scientific studies proving otherwise--and of course you do, because you've made this assertion-- then I would be very interested to see them. It doesn't seem reasonable to accept that a priori.
29 Aug 2014, 3:08 pm
The_Postmaster wrote:
The second is, frankly, a fantasy. We don't educate murderers and thieves and expect them to just be better people. If someone was going to commit such a terrible crime in the first place, I sincerely doubt they will be receptive to "yeah bro, that's not cool, man". If you have serious scientific studies proving otherwise--and of course you do, because you've made this assertion-- then I would be very interested to see them. It doesn't seem reasonable to accept that a priori.
You may be right. At first glance, education for men sounds like a good idea, but I don't know what form that would take, because ALL men know it is wrong, immoral and illegal to rape women. Similarly ALL men know it is wrong, immoral and illegal to commit murder, arson and various other crimes; yet a minority of men choose to go against this and do the crime anyway.
What more can you do from an education perspective to encourage the small minority of men who may be inclined towards violent crime not to do it? If they have so little respect for another human being (or they are a sociopath or psychopath) then no amount of education is going to make any difference. This sort of violent behaviour is certainly not condoned amongst men in general and those who may have inclinations towards it keep their heads down and don't get noticed... until they get arrested then everyone who knows them is shocked and horrified that they could do such a thing.
In my opinion violent crimes need to be vigorously punished. People who commit these crimes need to know that if they commit the crime they run a very high risk of being caught and imprisoned or even executed depending on the circumstances. Even this deterrent isn't likely to be effective in all cases. There are bound to still be a few men who would take their chances on not being caught, especially if they are drunk or high on drugs.
_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.
29 Aug 2014, 3:26 pm
Maybe if we used an euphemism that we could all relate to, like mugging (out of the dozens of people I've met, only maybe 2 have never been mugged) we could reach an understanding and discuss this like rational adults. Too much putting words in people's mouths going on.
Nobody blames victims for being mugged. You can't possibly prevent 100% being mugged except by becoming a hermit. Very few people think it's okay to mug, and we dont associate ourselves with them.
While we can educate some people that stealing is wrong, there are plenty of thugs who couldnt give less of a s**t. Thankfully we have the police to help us by patrolling neighborhoods and by detaining the perpetrators after the fact. To further minimize the risk of encountering unsavory characters, we adopt strategies like not walking through a poorly lit street in a bad part of town, nor do we wave freshly withdrawn-from-an-ATM bills in the air.
Nobody deserves to be mugged. Ideally nobody would ever get mugged. There is no foolproof strategy against being mugged. Does not mean it's not worth trying, as long as muggers arent a relic from the past
29 Aug 2014, 3:50 pm
tarantella64 wrote:
sly, having been through divorce with a custody case, I can tell you that claiming abuse assuredly does not move you up to the top of the list. It doesn't do anything but make the judge suspect you're playing games, particularly if the guy has no prior record of abuse. Which is a problem, because sometimes a woman will let abuse go during the marriage, not wanting to bring the cops in and make things worse, and then all of a sudden she's fighting to protect the kids from a guy she knows is violent -- only she can't prove it, because she never did call the cops before, so there's no documentation.
I have no problem with taking guns from accused abusers, or for that matter from anyone accused of a violent crime, until the matter can be investigated. Here's why: http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/nationwor ... m-abusers/
Unless you hunt all your food, you'll manage without your guns for a little while. This country's insane on the subject of guns anyhow.
I have no problem with taking guns from accused abusers, or for that matter from anyone accused of a violent crime, until the matter can be investigated. Here's why: http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/nationwor ... m-abusers/
Unless you hunt all your food, you'll manage without your guns for a little while. This country's insane on the subject of guns anyhow.
so take my guns and never given them back mean while months later i'm found not guilty. i have lost my rights, property and money been stripped of due process and deemed guilty until proven innocent all because one single person with no real evidence other then her say.
or we could wait til the accused can be seen by a judge and both can say their case and have the legal system then decide. and if needed take the guns.
you can kill someone without guns and taking them are going to piss the guy off moer so if he is violent and guilty i see this happening
"that b***h took my guns and rights , so i'm going go over there and kill here with my (axe, knife, sword, bat, crowbar, car, hammer, saw, weights, or friends Etc)"
when police take guns they never give them back. cause its there goal to get rid of all guns. the people in new orleans are still waiting to get guns back the city took but refuses to give back. we live in a system of laws and due process not kangaroo courts.
what next where we strip people of their right to speak just cause someone else said they lied or verbally assaulted them. what about the other amendments.
as for the custody battle. there are tons of people who had different experiences. you say a lot about how others her use their life experiences to bass what everyone does, but then you go and use yours to invalidate theres and claim that everyone does like you do.
29 Aug 2014, 3:55 pm
Eureka13 wrote:
I've said it before: there's a big difference between a stuttering, hand-wringing, apologetic "uuuh, can I kiss you?" and a straightforward: "I'd really like to kiss you right now."
I can see where the former might be a so-called "mood-killer," not because of the asking but because of the delivery. The latter scenario, however, is HAWT. I've kissed more than a few guys I might not have otherwise thought I was interested in because of that line right there.
Also, once again in this never-ending debate, we're not talking about a couple in a relationship, we're talking about two people who are relative strangers to one another. It is presumptive to kiss (or grope) anyone, male or female, who you do not know well enough to have already established some sort of physical relationship.
The first time with any new-to-you person, you should always ask, or at least verbally state your intention so that the other person has a chance to verbally accept or decline. Period.
I can see where the former might be a so-called "mood-killer," not because of the asking but because of the delivery. The latter scenario, however, is HAWT. I've kissed more than a few guys I might not have otherwise thought I was interested in because of that line right there.
Also, once again in this never-ending debate, we're not talking about a couple in a relationship, we're talking about two people who are relative strangers to one another. It is presumptive to kiss (or grope) anyone, male or female, who you do not know well enough to have already established some sort of physical relationship.
The first time with any new-to-you person, you should always ask, or at least verbally state your intention so that the other person has a chance to verbally accept or decline. Period.
one is asking the other is a statement. which most see as manipulating. like when you are out at a mall and your friend is like i'd really like a steak right not. they are trying to manipulate you into buying them a steak instead of asking you to buy one. its quite irritating.
i'd really like a steak. <-- statement
Would you buy me a steak? <--- question
so what is a romantic way of asking to kiss a girl with actually asking.
I've always just asked "may I kiss you?" followed by "does this feel ok?"
29 Aug 2014, 4:01 pm
TallyMan wrote:
The_Postmaster wrote:
The second is, frankly, a fantasy. We don't educate murderers and thieves and expect them to just be better people. If someone was going to commit such a terrible crime in the first place, I sincerely doubt they will be receptive to "yeah bro, that's not cool, man". If you have serious scientific studies proving otherwise--and of course you do, because you've made this assertion-- then I would be very interested to see them. It doesn't seem reasonable to accept that a priori.
You may be right. At first glance, education for men sounds like a good idea, but I don't know what form that would take, because ALL men know it is wrong, immoral and illegal to rape women. Similarly ALL men know it is wrong, immoral and illegal to commit murder, arson and various other crimes; yet a minority of men choose to go against this and do the crime anyway.
What more can you do from an education perspective to encourage the small minority of men who may be inclined towards violent crime not to do it? If they have so little respect for another human being (or they are a sociopath or psychopath) then no amount of education is going to make any difference. This sort of violent behaviour is certainly not condoned amongst men in general and those who may have inclinations towards it keep their heads down and don't get noticed... until they get arrested then everyone who knows them is shocked and horrified that they could do such a thing.
In my opinion violent crimes need to be vigorously punished. People who commit these crimes need to know that if they commit the crime they run a very high risk of being caught and imprisoned or even executed depending on the circumstances. Even this deterrent isn't likely to be effective in all cases. There are bound to still be a few men who would take their chances on not being caught, especially if they are drunk or high on drugs.
I think education would work for the rape that happens by people one knows (most rapes I think) as some men dont realize what counts as rape, for example they may think bullying/threatening you into agreeing to have sex is the same as consent. Im sure most men who spike womens drinks dont realize they are rapists. In my town there are weekly rapes of drunk girls on their way back from town and Im sure the perps dont realize that is rape, they probably think the girl is 'asking for it' (the it being sex in their mind not rape).
And as for the previous thing about telling daughters about safety, my daughters are 16 and 12 and I taught them from when they were little about keeping safe and all sorts of stuff about warning signs and how to get out of situations. I had a very unadvised childhood and experienced unpleasant things and I thought they would have less nightmares being warned about things than the ones I got experiencing those things. My 16 year old is much more safe in her behaviour than some of her friends, she goes out in the evening and went to comicon on her own but makes good decisions and doesnt take undue risks.
I think its really important not to get drunk as it makes you so very vulnerable to attack for lots of reasons and stops you making good judgement calls and getting out of situations.
29 Aug 2014, 4:05 pm
starvingartist wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
^ If that post is aimed at me and my question earlier; then you have evaded the question again. So be it, if you don't want to answer it that is your choice.
i told you, i specifically don't have kids just so i don't have to explain to them that the world is full of rapists and pedophiles and so here are all the things people will tell you not to do to "protect yourself" from all the rapists and pedophiles, because some "helpful" dude will inform you afterwards about all the things you could have done differently so that it wouldn't be your fault that you got raped or diddled, because that's the kind of world we live in. then i would go and cry for a few hours and wonder why the f**k i ever had kids in such a sh***y world full of rapists and the know-it-all a**holes that protect them by reminding women that it's our fault when we get assaulted for not being careful.
happy now?
You have a very cynical mindset, rapists and pedophiles are a small percentage and most men despise them of find their acts to be disturbing in many ways I know I do.
