This "nice guys vs jerks" nonsense has to stop.

Post Reply New Topic

This isn't exactly what I meant, what I meant is that focussing obsessively on a narrow range of criteria for a partner, to a stronger degree than an NT would (this criteria can be anything, not necessarily just attractiveness - a.k.a. Tim_Tex (hope you don't mind me including you here Tim) who would like a woman who is an aspie, has particular religious values, and loves simpsons and south park). To me, this trait screams aspie, and I am guilty of it myself.

Everyone has criteria, but maybe their criteria is not as narrow and has less obsessive focus placed on it.



I do somewhat agree with your second statement, especially the last part. I think though, for personal survival and reproductive reasons, aspies who have this characteristic previously mentioned (of which I am one, but I am not going into my personal "criteria" (which is also not appearance related) on this board because I know it's unrealistic and stupid) do need to try and open their minds a little more with their criteria.

The last part of your statement pretty much covers this in a nutshell with slightly different terminology; we need to open our minds to have a greater chance of success. And, like you said;

"At the end of the day, all this resentment towards people who won the genetic lottery doesnt help you at all and actively makes you less attractive."

Finally someone else made almost the exact point I was trying to make, the only difference being that you drew an entirely different conclusion from it.

I took out a bunch of the paragraph to leave only the key points. In your situation, I would not have hesitated to make out with that girl. BUT, just as critically, I would have also resented making her think I liked her for more than satisfying my "emotional/sexual needs" as you put it. Possibly to the point that I would have told her that's what I wanted her for, and hoping that's what she wanted me for too. Now I wouldn't have said "you're ugly but I want to f*** you because of my needs", it would have been more that I would have avoided lying if she ever asked me whether I wanted more, plus of course being open to her about physical involvement with other girls.

The point is, it would be possible for people to satisfy their "emotional/sexual needs" without letting each other down, if only were it not for the fact that people cling so much to the idea that you can only have sex with people you like to a certain degree in a certain way. If everyone invested less of their self-worth in their pickiness about sexual partners, then the sexual market would feel less like a battlefield, and you openly admitting that you didn't "have feelings" but still wanted to make out would neither be an insult nor a reason for her to not want to go along. And nearly everyone would have more of their needs met--because always worrying if you like someone enough to make out, or have sex, or whatever, is a problem faced by people of ALL attractiveness levels.

But the situation seems to be that girls find it so easy to get male attention that they can pretend they don't have sexual needs, and then guys like you feel compelled to follow suit and not participate in activities to fill these needs unless you have a particular type of feelings for her. Just the fact that you like each other enough to hang out is not enough.

As far as I'm concerned, a 'jerk' shows all the above traits too. 90% of both men and women match that description.


Saying "you're not my type" isn't bitchy is it?



That's not unreasonable if he clearly isn't good enough for her.


How could turning down an alpha for an inferior be a better choice? They're just going along with the laws of nature.

Well such an incident did happen to me back in high school, where a bunch of my guy friends told the girl I liked that I was going to ask her, and whether she'd consider it. She told them "Hell no!" and that I was ugly as hell, of course not to my face. When I did ask her out, she said politely "Sorry, I can't, I have a bf" and that was that.

No, I don't think this is a regular occurrence, but I'm willing to bet that there are girls out there who speak poorly of guys who have asked them out to their friends in a mocking gesture. I would be incorrect and engaging in allness if I said all girls did it, but I'm pretty sure that the more physically attractive ones will have a much higher tendency of doing it. You can still play lip service and still be an arrogant person unfortunately.

I spoke to mum about the whole thing last night (flirting, asking people out, etc), and she said it was a "game" and I've been taking it way too seriously.

Maybe we all have



Maybe part of our problem is that we take being turned down, and the turning down, way too seriously when we should be light hearted about it?

Interesting theory. However, I have seriously doubt that it is just a matter of being turned down and taking it too seriously. I think there is more to it than just that.

I honestly believe that this whole issue deals with a lack of personal self-confidence, which I believe is a very understandable part of being autistic. We have difficulty understanding NT's and the emotional connotation/meaning of their words. Thus, we can easily become confused and humiliated at our own incapability to understand what neurotypicals naturally take for granted. It is hard to be confident and self-assured when you don't have an understanding of what's going on and how to prepare for an awkward situation, especially if you cognitively can't do it, or at best do it very poorly.

Similarly, I believe this who dating thing deals with the issue of self confidence. Because we, the slightly autistic, are easily emotionally confused and mild-mannered (for the most part), we tend to have a trusting and naive' nature. We take people at full value, rather than questioning their motives. So in the romantic sense, when we get rejected, it is more personal, because we don't have a lot of self confidence because of what have and how it affects us mentally. If someone already has low confidence, and a blow is struck to them, it hurts them a lot more than a person with a higher sense of self esteem and values.

Now, as for my neurotypical brethren, I think they have a natural sense of self-esteem and value. For some reason, they have a higher sense of what they believe they are worth and a much stronger sense of what a violation is. This can lead to assertiveness, or an extreme case of arrogance and overinflated sense of value. I notice this, especially when I'm at work, because I can see how arrogance and confident NT people can be. When they get regretted, I believe it is a blow to their self-esteem/pride, but because they had that sense of self-esteem and assumed self worth in the first place, they can recover fairly easily over time, whereas it might affect us considerably longer.
How lack of self confidence, as we all know, is detrimental to our attempts at romantic relationships.

So in short, I believe that since most NT's (not all) already possess self-esteem and a sense of personal value, they can take a blow to their pride and recover rather quickly. We, on the other hand, don't have that "shield" of self-esteem and self worth, and when we get rejected, we take a direct hit, which takes longer to recover from.

"Games?" Perhaps to NT's, but we tend to take this stuff more seriously, because we don't have the assurance that most NT's do.

Not me.

It's just a boring game so it doesn't hold my interest. Seriously, dating has got to be one of the top ten worst games ever. Maybe even top five. 52 pick up is the only card game that might be on the same level of suckage, and that's assuming you're not the dealer.

There's no definitive strategy guide and you can't redraw the cards you are given. Maybe you could improve your technique through "experience", so in essence dating is a game where the drudgery of leveling up is a lot like pokemon or final fantasy, except you don't get to beat up monsters for experience. Lame.



But that takes out all the fun of taking revenge on the b***h/a**hole who rejected you.

Though being lighthearted does have the advantage of keeping you out of trouble with the law, though.



Maybe that's because we don't look at it as a game. If it's just a game there's less pressure, unless you're competitive. Unfortunately, dating can be a very competitive game.

Being lighthearted usually results in being a doormat

This nonsense will continue for as long as "nice guys" are made to feel disenfranchised of love.

People, NTs and Aspies alike tend to connect better with people like themselves, so have you ever thought that these women may be jerks as well?

and maybe thats why we cannot connect with them

Agreed! That's what I said to my mum - I said, well if dating is supposed to be a fun "game", then I don't want to play it. I don't enjoy it, and I find it upsetting. But I get forced into playing this "game" against my own volition every day by both friends and strangers. How is that fair, or even just? Isn't that a violation of human rights?

Autistic_Malcontent, in regards to your previous post, I think you hit the nail on the head - and I feel I have a much better understanding of your point of view after reading it. This is where our points of view coincide; when it comes to taking dating very seriously. Like I said before, according to mum we are not supposed to be taking dating seriously (and to NT's it's not that serious; it's more like a hobby, or a game they play where they're chatting up girls, trying to hook up and ask people out, etc. and therefore is FUN (and this is why girls are supposed to like being hit on; because apparently being hit on is like scoring points or something(?) in this whole bizarre game)). By taking dating too seriously, apparently I am letting it get to me too much and upset me when I should just be having fun with it. Apparently I shouldn't get upset at all over turning people down, or pushing people away - and I shouldn't even be doing this to the extent I have been (in my words; I should be leading people on, playing the game, and THEN turning them down once it gets to a certain point ).

And apparently (and this is the interesting bit, folks!), I've been turning down people the *wrong way*, because apparently you're not supposed to be truthful when you're turning people down (saying something like - "I like you heaps, but I'm not attracted to you in that way/attracted to you romantically"), because apparently by being honest I am being mean and hurtful to the other person; like I am calling them fat or something?!?!

And even just not playing along and turning them down at the start rather than later on (although not turning them down as friends or anything, just making it clear I'm not interested romantically) is being mean. So all this time I've been more hurtful than I should be without realizing what I did!!

Apparently what you're supposed to do is to lie to their face, and tell them you already have a boyfriend or that you're not interested in dating (even if you *are* interested in dating!) and this is the right way to go about things.

Believe it or not, I have this all on good authority from my NT mum. Some of the rules of the "game" and how it is played (from a female perspective). Oh yeah, and apparently all guys are supposed to be thinking about sex all the time.

Sunshower.

Yea, they seem to view it as a game.

But when you are playful and then get a girl or guy you want, then you will be so used to being playful, that the relationship will be playful and someone might get hurt.
sugh as
"Yea girl I slept with her last night, it was just for fun, I still like you though"

yea, thats what most men would do if it was just a silly game

Girls are just as bad in this respect.

What really burns me is how women have come to think being totally dishonest in letting someone down and rejecting them is acceptable. "I just want to be friends" usally means " I want nothing to do with you". But people with AS can't get the tone or body languge. So when they say "I just want to be friends" thats what we think they mean. Then after they say that, and we try to just be friends with them, they get upset and think we are stalking them. But if women were honest and said they want nothing to do with you, there would not be any misunderstanding.

I actually don't see dating as a game. I see it as marketing-oriented business, where guys are sellers, and girls are buyers. Here's some background. Looking at evolutionary biology, 20% of all males mate with 80% of all females; this was also true in human evolution, even for the Cro-Magnon humans. We today may have descended from only 20% to 40% of males of our early ancestors. But how do those 20% get so good at attracting females? They have the traits that make them marketable. Sadly, most of those qualities are inborn, such as good looks and strong muscles, but nowadays, money and social status can be used to attract women, and looks can be changed with plastic surgery. Still, attracting women, whether for nice guys or jerks, is all marketing. Jerks just have traits that are way more marketable.

Monogamy didn't become the norm until religion (Judaism was the oldest one) started to take hold. Think of it as government control for the way businesses can market themselves. For thousands of years, Western civilization made monogamy the norm, through control by the church and later through societal norms, which made things somewhat easier for nice guys. During the late 20th century, this value began to weaken (kind of like government deregulation), causing nice guys to pretty much get left out in the dust. The only solution is to examine what traits jerks are using, and adopt them to the best of the ability.

So, you're a nice guy and you want a relationship. How do you get it? Think of a relationship with you, as a product you're selling. What can you offer than a jerk can't? Make a list:
* Her knowing that you'll always be good to her
* Her being respected as a person
* Her not having to worry about you pressuring her into sex
* Her being sure that you won't cheat on her

But what's the problem? Girls want excitement and challenge that jerks are very good at providing. That's the first thing they go for; they're generally not concerned about the nice guy qualities until much later. Think of McDonald's: when given carrot sticks in a McDonald's wrapper, kids thought they were better-tasting than those from the produce department at their grocery store. It's the exact same food item, yet the packaging is what convinced kids to eat it. Because for kids, McDonalds = good taste, just as for a lot of women, jerk = desirable. Do kids know that carrot sticks are better for them than Chicken McNuggets? Yes. Do they still choose Chicken McNuggets over carrot sticks? Yes. Why? Business marketing!

Despite the efforts to promote health food, McDonald's still markets its food better than USDA can. Similarly, despite all the good things nice guys can give, girls still go for jerks. Why? because jerks can market their good qualities extremely well, although a lot of those qualities are inborn or intuitive, such as looks, muscles, and social skills. Having these things leads to having confidence. And that confidence is like the McDonald's wrapper with really unhealthy food inside. A nice guy, on the other hand, is like a generic package of carrot sticks with words like "great source of vitamin A" on the front. Obviously, it's not as attractive as the yellow arches on a McDonald's wrapper. Now, what's better for you? The answer is obvious. What do most people choose? The answer is also obvious.

So, what can you, a nice guy, do about it? Adopt as many jerk qualities as you can, but use them for marketing purposes only. Present yourself in a jerk-like way, so that you can make girls attracted to you. Remember: you're not changing who you are, and you're not turning yourself into a jerk. All you're doing is modifying the packaging to make it more marketable. It might seem manipulative, but that's how you deal with the reality we as a society created for ourselves. Once get past the initial stage where creating attraction (by being challenging) is critical, you can still do the traditional "nice guy" things. But then it'll all be viewed in the context of being a great boyfriend, rather that a great friend (i.e. the friend zone).

So, I hope this sums up my outlook on dating. It's not a game, it's a business. And succeeding in the gating world is no different that succeeding in the business world.

My problem with that is me and i think most other guys with AS just don't know how to do that. We have so much trouble reading people.

Also, for me I feel if I try and do that then I feel I am being fake and dishonest and not letting the person see the real me. If all of a sudden you stop being that way then they may think you have changed or you look at them in a different way.
Another excample: I HATE going to clubs, dancing, ect.. Some of my friends ask me why I don't go to clubs to meet girls. The simple answer is thats not the type of place I feel I can meet a girl I will like. If I go there, pretnend I like to dance, fake conversation over the music, ect, then the women that will be interested in me think I really like that stuff and will expect me to do that stuff all the time. I would much rather be myself then be fake and have women like me because if me being dishonest all the time.