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Roman
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04 May 2012, 5:13 am

hyperlexian wrote:
both scenarios can happen, but if you want to increase the likelihood that she will date you, it is better not to ask her out early on..


That seems the opposite to the dating advice I read. From what I read online if I don't ask her out soon enough she would place me automatically into friend zone.



CrinklyCrustacean
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04 May 2012, 5:39 am

I'm suprised Roman's dinner serving example was misinterpreted so badly. The way I understand it is that if some people get served first every time, then you start to wonder what it is that is different about them. Then you realise that the people at the head of the table are of higher status than those at the foot, and it is those people at the head of the table who get served first. Therefore, your status defines how soon you get your meal. Therefore, if you are served last consistently, then it is probable that you are of low status. The bit I don't agree with is the translation of that into the dating situation where it becomes "everybody who gets a date is of higher status than me, therefore I am of low status because I'm not being dated." That's a fallacy because correlation isn't the same as causation.



beezy
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04 May 2012, 5:47 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
I always find it kind of amusing when people are more concerned about being called an "ist" then they are about avoiding behavior and speech that is "ist".


Sometimes it's ironic isn't it?



CrinklyCrustacean
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04 May 2012, 5:53 am

Roman wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Roman wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
this isn't actually true. people change their minds all the time. i saw a statistic that showed women are more likely to date a man after 1 year of friendship than right away upon meeting, and even MORE likely to date them after 5 years of friendship. and these are men that the women didn't consider to be dateable at first.


Now the fact that these women didn't consider the above men to be datable at first is a proof that first impression might not necesserely be right. So why can't women look at that study and decide "we will no longer make a decision after one date, we will make it after several years". That would make a lot more sense. I mean, even going to your study, you said women didn't consider these men datable at first. So my question is: how come there was no situation when a woman DID consider someone datable BUT decided to wait a year or two, anyway? I mean that would make a lot more sense wouldn't it. Whom to date is a long-term decision so it would make sense to spend lots of time getting to know different people BEFORE deciding whom to date. Yet, as you said yourself in the above post the issue was that the women considered men "not datable" as opposed to "wanting to take more time to decide". Why is that? Especially that very study shows that these women were wrong in their original decision. If so, why were they still making that snap decision? And suppose some woman sees that study. Will she then start acting differently and "take things slow" instead of deciding "now or never"? My guess is that she would still make "now or never" decisions. It would probably be like "well, the women in that study were wrong, but in the present situation I am right". Its like always the case, people might say it is bad to judge yet they do judge.

Now, its true that you said that after a year or two they DID decide to date the men. But the point is that before that time came it was assumed that they would NEVER date them. So in order to "go through" with that year the guy basically needs to accept the fact that he is "not datable" as well as all the pain that goes with it. Thus, most guys simply won't stick around. On the other hand, it would be a lot better if instead of "lets just be friends" they were told "I need more time to decide". Now, to be fair, few girls DID tell me "I need more time to decide" but I still turned these friendships down because I knew what they really meant was "I don't want to date". But what I am saying is that it would be a lot better if the girls were to "take more time to decide" AND MEAN IT. Perhaps the whole "inferior status" thing would be eliminated if we work on both sides of a coin: instead of the "system" being "start dating right away" what if the "system" was "get to konw someone for several months and then start dating". Then no one would ever take it personally when the girl says she needs time -- after all she would "need time" with everyone! AND it would make a lot more sense. She won't be "stuck" with dating someone simply because that guy put on a good front on first few dates.

By the way my own parents took like 3 years before they started dating. I was always assuming that was how it is with everyone. But then when I had my first girlfriend, Sarah, she started kissing me right on the second date. I was surprised. I then asked her does it mean we are in a relationship. She said yes. I was then really surprised because I thought it takes few years to be in a relationship. So you see, its not like I am impatient. To me, taking it slow makes the most sense. But the "system", as shallow as it is, is set up on "now and never" and then "of course" I don't want to be placed in the "never" category by that system.

women DO give the men a chance after several years, so i am not sure what you mean. your chances of dating them would go up after several years of friendship. but if you want to make that work, you can't start off with dating. you have to start with friendship.


Okay, let me try to spell it out:

SCENARIO A:

1. A woman decided to give it several years to decide whether she wants to date a man or not
2. Several years passed and a woman decided to date him

SCENARIO B:

1. A woman decided NOT to date a man
2. She changed her mind after several years

What I was complaining about is the fact that in the studies you cited, the Scenario B occured instead of Scenario A. I would have preferred Scenario A. After all, in case of Scenario A I don't have to feel inferior while I am waiting; in scenario B I do.

The way I understand it is like this:

SCENARIO C:
1. A woman decided NOT to date a man.
2. The man got on with his life and met other people. So did the woman.
3. Some years later, both the man and the woman were more compatible.
4. She now considered him a possible partner.

The problem with scenario A is that you could be waiting for say 15 years, and at the end of it she says, "No, sorry."
In any case, I think Hyperlexian's point was that if you have some solid friendship, then she is more likely to give you a chance at dating her than if she meets you off the street or at a party, because she knows a lot more about what you're like as a person. Hyperlexian: while I don't deny that happens, is it the most common? It seems to me that most people get together after only a few months of knowing each other, and sometimes after a single night. Is that accurate?



Kurgan
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04 May 2012, 6:42 am

hyperlexian wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
KenM wrote:
For me, the reason LJBF hurts is 95% of the time someone said that to me, they did not really mean it. They said it to let me down easy. This hurt me more because they were not honest.

LJBF is a canned phrase meaning "No thank you". It isn't meant literally any more than the answer to the question "What's up?" is "The sky".


Saying "let's just be friends" if you don't want to be friends, can be compared to when parents tell their seven year old son that Derp the rabbit went to live on a farm or is on a ski resort for bunnies, when he was actually eaten by Al, the neighbor cat.

but if someone intends to share an emotional exchange with you, they DO want to be friends.

somehow, in this thread you have said that:

1. when women say LJBF they DON'T want to be friends
2. when women say LJBF they want to rely on you emotionally, as friends DO

you can't have it both ways, as the two situations are mutually exclusive. it's almost like you are manipulating your statements to paint women in a negative light, even when it makes no logical sense.


If they just dump their problems onto me, without ever talking about interests or want to hang out, they're not interested in my friendship. I'm not painting all women in a bad light, but I paint manipulative women in a bad light.

and again, the point is that most women are not like that. the majority of women are not manipulative, just like the majority of men are not.


I didn't say they were. However, let's say I go on two dates from the internet, get laid on the second one and the all of suddenly, a few hours later the chick suggests to be "just friends" on the phone. Since I didn't even know her from before, I should be allowed to turn her offer down without being the bad guy here.

Furthermore, most people who attempt to play mind games and use failed dates with strangers to "make friends" are manipulative.

i've never heard of someone dating just to add to their friend pool, so i am sure it is not something you really need to worry about.

of course you are not obligated to be friends with anyone ever. i don't really understand why you would already decide not to be friends right at the outset, though. after all, she wouldn't have done anything manipulative to you at that point and you were not used as any sort of emotional tampon or anything. if she was worth dating she would surely be worth a friendship. then if it goes south or she turns out to be manipulative, you don't have to stay friends with her. i don't really get why a person would turn don a potential friend.


If she's bitching about how all men are the same (even though the common denominator is her) or starts talking about cute boys, then I know for a fact that she's just looking for an emotional tampon, thanks to Occam's razor.



edgewaters
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04 May 2012, 7:23 am

rabbittss wrote:
That is precisely how I tend to deal with it to.. the problem is I tend to take it to far and also issue ultimatums to mutual friends.. somethings that works out.. usually it just causes a cascade effect of friend loss.


I never issue ultimatums. I don't want to force them, I don't want them to be mechanical clockwork friends.



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04 May 2012, 7:40 pm

rabbittss wrote:
Waiting years for that is a ridiculous and futile effort. Human lifespans are too short to wait on people.


But you notice how so many TV series have a main character that never just comes right out and asks the love interest? I never understood that.



JanuaryMan
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04 May 2012, 7:42 pm

CaptainTrips222 wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
Waiting years for that is a ridiculous and futile effort. Human lifespans are too short to wait on people.


But you notice how so many TV series have a main character that never just comes right out and asks the love interest? I never understood that.


1) It's fiction.
2) It keeps you watching the show.



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05 May 2012, 1:43 pm

Well, the phrase "LJBF" is certainly an advantage on "let just not be friends" or "please don't contact me anymore". Good friends are few and far between.



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05 May 2012, 4:01 pm

CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
I'm suprised Roman's dinner serving example was misinterpreted so badly. The way I understand it is that if some people get served first every time, then you start to wonder what it is that is different about them. Then you realise that the people at the head of the table are of higher status than those at the foot, and it is those people at the head of the table who get served first. Therefore, your status defines how soon you get your meal. Therefore, if you are served last consistently, then it is probable that you are of low status. The bit I don't agree with is the translation of that into the dating situation where it becomes "everybody who gets a date is of higher status than me, therefore I am of low status because I'm not being dated." That's a fallacy because correlation isn't the same as causation.

people who get chosen for dating are not necessarily higher status.

Roman wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
both scenarios can happen, but if you want to increase the likelihood that she will date you, it is better not to ask her out early on..


That seems the opposite to the dating advice I read. From what I read online if I don't ask her out soon enough she would place me automatically into friend zone.

the friend zone does not really exist for most people. at any point, it is possible for a friendship to develop into something more. it is unlikely to happen if you already dated once, though.


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hyperlexian
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05 May 2012, 4:07 pm

CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
The problem with scenario A is that you could be waiting for say 15 years, and at the end of it she says, "No, sorry."
In any case, I think Hyperlexian's point was that if you have some solid friendship, then she is more likely to give you a chance at dating her than if she meets you off the street or at a party, because she knows a lot more about what you're like as a person. Hyperlexian: while I don't deny that happens, is it the most common? It seems to me that most people get together after only a few months of knowing each other, and sometimes after a single night. Is that accurate?

according to my research, it is most common that a female is at least fairly well acquainted with the man. he could be a good friend, or some other possibility like they worked together for quite a while, or he is a mutual friend with someone else, or he goes to the same church, etc.

in general, women prefer to know the man somewhat before dating. it's almost like having references.

EDIT: i did also see a graph once that showed the steadily increasing possibility of a woman dating a man depending on how long they knew each other for. it rises sharply at the one year mark and then steadily but slowly rises until the 5 year mark. they don't have to be best friends, but well-acquainted.


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06 May 2012, 2:53 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHZsleyKons&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/youtube]



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26 May 2012, 3:59 pm

This Channel 4 show Sex Lies And Rinsing Guys talks about how girls (rinsers) are conducting a LJBF scam to extract money from as many guys as possible. Of coarse hustlers like this are nothing new. I think a lonely aspie guy would be particularly vulnerable to this kind of predatory manipulation. To me it seems some of the grifters shown could be specifically targeting aspie guys. It is very understandable why someone would feel very hurt being used like this.

Image

Sex Lies And Rinsing Guys - Channel 4 UK
Sex Lies And Rinsing Guys - file share outside of the UK

To me it seems they are actually not scamming millionaires, but rather a lot of average working class guys. Rich guys are rare and very few are single and lonely.



KenM
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26 May 2012, 8:48 pm

bucephalus wrote:
Well, the phrase "LJBF" is certainly an advantage on "let just not be friends" or "please don't contact me anymore". Good friends are few and far between.


Only if they actually mean they want to be friends. I've had many girls I was interested in say "LJBF" but they really meant "please don't contact me any more". What is more cruel? Being honest with how you feel, or saying that you want to be someone's friend when you really don't.



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27 May 2012, 4:27 am

KenM wrote:
bucephalus wrote:
Well, the phrase "LJBF" is certainly an advantage on "let just not be friends" or "please don't contact me anymore". Good friends are few and far between.


Only if they actually mean they want to be friends. I've had many girls I was interested in say "LJBF" but they really meant "please don't contact me any more". What is more cruel? Being honest with how you feel, or saying that you want to be someone's friend when you really don't.


I dunno how this is a gender issue, though.

NT's say tons of stuff, CONSTANTLY, to avoid even the slightest possible change of hurting someone's feelings,
to the point of communication breakdown.

Why would an arguably more-personal situation like sexual + romantic rejection make this not the case?


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27 May 2012, 4:33 am

Lets Just Be Friends doesn't mean I want you to get my number so you can call me to ask me to go check out a film, I have friends for that and we'll be laughing at you for calling (again).



Last edited by ZX_SpectrumDisorder on 27 May 2012, 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.