Consequences in "why to ask first"

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saying we need to educate all men not to be rapist, is assuming that all men are rapists.

as tally man said we are taught not to rape, steal, murder, lie from a early age and all through school. yet people rape, steal, murder. and just about everyone lies.

and once a rapists has raped its hard to teach him not to do it, as its too late. you can't undue.

perhaps we should just split the nation in half, all women live in the east and men in the west.

or we can punish those who rape, and keep them locked up rather than letting them out to make room for pot smokers. if a person is found guilty of rape, murder, or violent stealing. then they shouldn't ever be let out. odds are they won't change their ways.

but saying this is a man only problem and men are all responsible and guilty for actions of another man and there fore we have to educate those men not to do it is crazy.

it'd be like saying that the rioting is a black problem and all black people need to fix it. but people would be that's racist. but saying its every man's job to educate and stop rape isn't o.O it's not every woman's responsibility to educate the women who hurt me and other men. men are not a mass organized group with one mind. its not like we can all get together at our national men gathering and vote to banish those men who raped, out of the manship. all we can do is say its wrong(we do) , say we don't accept such actions(we do) and try to stop rape when we see it(we do).

I don't see how you could do anything more. unless you sugesst creating a class in every school for only guys where its an hour long of some guy yelling at guys "don't rape" I fail to see how that would help

as for asking. it seems that its either 60/40 don'task/ask or 50/50 and the don't ask would be upset if you ask and the ask upset if you don't. so it seems that its just the general you can't make women happy line

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-l ... 7039895083

Females rape as well so yes, both genders can be disturbing but these are a minority of people, you are hanging around in the wrong circles if you are meeting rapists.

Sounds like that's working for you - if so, keep doing it.

don't know where you live, but most people know that if you are threating or bullying somone to do somting then they aren't doing it freely, drugging someone's drink is wrong, so if they doing that then they probably know its rape. i think 20/20 did stuff on this and most knew it. they don't care if they rape someone they just want sex. they do those set ups and one stranger wanted to join in. they know its rape they just use those excuses post caught to justifiy it. good people won't do any of those things. the only time it might be confused is when it happens with a friend, who might have thought they were having a good time. even then most good people wouldn't try to have sex with their friend when shes drunk. I don't care if she was pulling down my pants and trying to hop on me, i'd gently push her off and lock myself in another room. these people know what they are doing is wrong. often they know that the person wouldn't have sex with them otherwise, its why they have to wait for them to be drunk, or drug them or passed out.

I mean the whole go pick up a drunk girl at a bar so you can have sex, is often used by and suggested to guys who can't get sex normally. so they take it, if you taking something then its not yours. I can't stand that, I thought she wanted it. you mean when she passed out on her bed. yep she was totally wanting sex, thats why she went to sleep. those people are just bad people and I don't think you can educate evil

Sounds like a good area where young men could be better educated. They need to be made aware that spiking drinks with the intent to "have sex" with the woman is really intent to rape. Similarly using bullying/threatening to force a women to have sex is also rape. While these things seem obvious to me, there are quite likely some young men, who like you say, wouldn't realise it was rape. Though the men must have pretty low morals if they are going to bed a woman this way anyway. Education certainly may cut down these forms of rape.



Sounds sensible. It isn't blaming the victim or being a misogynist by advising daughters on practical things they can do to help reduce the risks of being attacked. Even little things like not leaving your drinks unattended at a club can help. Many of these things are somewhat obvious, but younger, more naive / trusting girls may be more likely to take unnecessary risks which leave them more vulnerable to attack.

They may not understand the legality of it-- they may, for instance, think that spiking someone's drink technically isn't rape because it doesn't involve force-- but they sure as hell know it's wrong. We're taught from a young age that coercion and manipulation are wrong; they simply choose to ignore that. Which doesn't give me high hopes for the prospect of educating them. Again, I think that, until some studies are brought into the discussion that show the benefits of education for would-be rapists, it would be prudent to adopt the stance of "it won't work". There's no reason to think, a priori, that it would be effective in curbing rape, and plenty of reason to think it wouldn't and would just be a waste of time and manpower and an inconvenience for morally astute men.

Last edited by The_Postmaster on 29 Aug 2014, 4:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blog ... get-raped/

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57KXo13Z8nI#t=155[/youtube]

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-cont ... n-inquiry/

http://www.mamamia.com.au/health-wellbe ... ing-raped/

http://www.ebony.com/news-views/stop-te ... z3BocDnrQl

http://www.thefrisky.com/2013-01-03/the ... t-to-rape/

http://feministepoetique.wordpress.com/ ... get-raped/

http://www.upworthy.com/how-not-to-get- ... that-right

http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/louisefe ... get-raped/

http://time.com/2809276/notallmen-dont-get-it/

http://amptoons.com/blog/2005/06/15/yes ... get-raped/

https://medium.com/human-parts/a-gentle ... c86c50dc4c

i don't expect any of you "helpful" advisers will actually read any of these (because you're much more concerned about winning an argument than learning about what survivors go through or how tired women are of hearing about how to prevent rape and how unhelpful advice about not getting raped is), but i had to try anyway. but if even just one of you does read some of these and has their eyes opened to a way to be more compassionate to sexual assault survivors and less supportive of rape culture, then it was worth it.

only kissed 3 women. and we talked alot before meeting. which i prefer. I aks more cause I am shy and afraid of hurting someone. I don't know if they disliked it or not, we did continue to kiss and as I got more confident about it. I asked not as much. I have encountered some women on okc thought that got pissed at me for asking in text, so I imagine if we ever made it to the meet up stage they would be upset.

also those women were my firsts. I had to ask if we could cuddle and then ask how to cuddle. which might have been awkward, but she thought it was cute, but probably just cause i'd never done it. I don't imagine that works every time. on the other hand I do not know how to instigate contact. which is why I ask. to some holding hands or hugging/cuddling might come natural. but I get anxiety when i start to think about how to start it. but others just like start it. o.O once started i can go back to it, but it is likely any girl i end up with will be back to square one and acting like its my first time as a teenager.
i assume this will be problematic in a relationship.

That's all well and good, but until you offer a better solution-- one that will actually work, not "let's try to educate sociopaths and hope they change"-- advice is the best we have. At least that provides a statistical edge.

most rapists are not sociopaths--they are insecure angry men, and they are your fathers, your brothers, your teachers, your pastors, your little league coaches, your doctors, etc etc etc. they are not the rarest of creatures--chances are you know a rapist and are simply unaware of what they are capable of because you've never bothered to ask. the man who raped me was not a sociopath, he was insecure and angry and was capable of feeling remorse, just not for what he did to me. maybe if someone had intervened with him when he was younger and tried to explain to him that women were people, i might not have been raped by him. none of the advice here directed at women preventing rape would have helped me in the slightest.

That's rubbish, there's a big line between being a rapist and not being one, someone doesn't just go out and start raping women...it is something that is psychologically embedded within a person.

Everyone please bear in mind this is just a judgment call-- I've not been able to find much data on the link between sociopathy and rape-- but I tend to agree. It seems to me that if someone can do something like that and feel no remorse, there is something inherently psychologically different separating them from the general population. They may not be a sociopath, clinically speaking, but I would bet they have some other deeply ingrained psychological problems-- possibly even a variant of sociopathy.

As far as I can see, nobody here is "supportive of rape culture". I'm not even sure there is such a thing as rape culture; just individuals who are prepared to act in a way they know is both immoral and illegal and commit violent crimes such as rape or murder.

Compassion for rape victims is all well and good, but it doesn't solve the problem of preventing rapes in the first place. I think the bottom line is that unfortunately there will always be a small minority of men out there who will commit rape if they think they can get away with it.

As with all crime; it isn't the victims fault. All anyone can do is try to minimise their risk of being a victim without fear of crime dominating their lives. Nobody wants to live as a recluse, afraid to step out of the door (not that people are safe at home anyway). I know there are some areas in towns I've lived in the past that I would not venture around at night. I would be at high risk of getting mugged or both mugged and stabbed. If I was carrying a smart phone in my hand I'd be even more likely to be attacked. I could of course be bloody minded about this and exercise my right to walk there and chat away on an iPhone and carry a briefcase in my other hand, but the odds would be very low I'd make it out of the other side of that neighbourhood. I could complain about the culture of crime in that neighbourhood and lobby the police and local government to take more action to make the area safe for me and everyone else to walk in. In the meantime I simply won't walk there in the dark and I would advise anyone else not to walk there either. Shouting at me or anyone else who suggests not walking there at night doesn't solve anything. I don't need to be a mugging victim to suggest to others that it isn't safe for them to walk there at night.

I also don't need to be a rape victim to tell my hypothetical fifteen year old daughter to "Get that F*** Me T-shirt changed. You aren't setting foot out of the house with that on! Also, you aren't walking home alone at night through that neighbourhood either - I'll pick you up / book a taxi / or do something!". Surely this is common sense? No? Am I from a different planet?

first of all: rubbish?? no that's not rubbish, that's what happened to me.

second of all: the human psyche is a funny thing--i bet if you were to track him down and ask him, the man who raped me would not think of himself as a rapist, simply a guy who took advantage of an opportunity that was presented to him by fate or whatever. these men--the acquaintance rapists, i am speaking of, not the stranger-attacker--go through great feats of psychological gymnastics to justify what they do to themselves and to twist their own perception of what they do to suit what they want so they don't have to think of themselves as bad people. and because they are able to convince themselves they aren't bad people (at least, only to people who deserve it or were asking for it) most of the people in their lives aren't aware of what they really are either, and they can seem very "normal" in most other ways and so go under the radar for a long time. most of the time it eventually catches up with them, but often years later so that those of us hurt by them won't ever see any kind of justice. but yeah, it's not so black and white as you think--it would be easier for us to live with if every guy that was capable of rape was a full-blown conscienceless psychopath...but that's not how the facts bear out. sometimes the rapists (especially if they are the acquaintance/date-rapist type) are guys who are human beings with human feelings, who are just really messed up inside about women. deal with it.

What's the shirt question? Sorry, I'm massively overemployed at the mo plus have kid, so I don't read all of every message.

Once again starvingartist is accusing people of not being compassionate, and setting up strawmen. She is clearly incapable of having this discussion.

It would be best to lock this thread. It's not a matter of miscommunication. It's willing refusal to understand. There are no posts that could save this.