Consequences in "why to ask first"

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Here is the link:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp6227447.html#6227447
It isn't a trick question; I'm not trying to score any points or win any debate, I'm just asking for a honest reply without evading the question because something you posted didn't make any sense to me. Your answer would clarify that.

Edit: It's gone midnight here in France and I'm shattered, so will pick up on this thread again tomorrow.

i am not accusing anyone of not being compassionate; i am openly asking for more compassion for survivors, to listen when we tell you how it feels to hear all the time how women are supposed to avoid being raped when none of that helpful advice would have helped us avoid what happened to us, and how it makes us feel blamed for what was done to us. and obviously it is falling on completely deaf ears.

also i have the audacity to suggest that some rapists are human beings who are capable of human emotion including remorse and those emotions do not prevent them from raping because they explain it away to themselves in their minds as "not-really-rape-so-i'm-still-ok" and so continue to be able to sleep at night. apparently this proves i am irrational and incapable of having a discussion on this subject: it's not like i have an informed and possibly valuable perspective on sexual assault and how it's not always the stranger lurking in the bushes or the violent psychopath like everyone here obviously believes. alrighty then. i've been dismissed.

Regardless of whether we're talking about sociopathic rapists or acquaintance rape, it seems the only advice men here have to offer women is "be more careful about where you go, what you wear, and who you associate with."

There really is a dire need to spend some of that male energy on educating other males that YES YOU HAVE TO ASK AND YES YOU HAVE TO RECEIVE CLEAR CONSENT.

That is why this conversation is never-ending. As SA said, most acquaintance-rape perpetrators do not think of themselves as rapists. They saw an opportunity and they took advantage of it, that simple. Boys will be boys, right? And, well, she didn't say no! Correct, she didn't say "no" because she wasn't asked.

IMO, it's a pretty simple request. No, no one is accusing all men of being rapists. But I think it's crystal clear from the conversation here that way too many men simply don't understand what consent entails. And, from my perspective on this never-ending discussion, it seems fairly hopeless that they ever will.

It's one thing to tell your daughter (or your sister or your aunt or yourself) to not wear "enticing" or "slu*ty" clothing, to not walk in bad neighborhoods, to never leave your drink unattended in a bar. Sure, that minimizes your chance of encountering a predatory rapist. It's something entirely different to have a friend, a date, or a family member - someone you TRUST - take advantage of that trust and violate your body without your consent.

So, it goes back to, if she's not hopping up and down openly and overtly demanding you kiss, grope, have sex with her, do not presume that is what she wants. Do not presume.

Oh, I did see that, Tallyman, just didn't think you were serious. Okay, here goes.

There's a problem with the question, which is that it displays deep naivete about who rapes, where, and why. What rape is, essentially.

Yes, I'd let her wear the shirt. Shirts don't cause rape. Neither do short skirts or high heels. There isn't some sort of rape-proof or rape-deflecting uniform that women can wear. There is no good-girl uniform that alerts rape-inclined men to the idea that this one over here shouldn't be raped. You want to know something? I never had more direct propositions in my life than when I was 40 years old, just entering a custody battle, stressed to the max, wearing sweats two sizes too big, no makeup, exhausted, hair looking terrible. I mean I really looked like hell and may as well have been wearing a gunny sack. That's when strangers came up to me in the coffeeshop in a polite academic neighborhood wanting to f**k me. And just straight up saying so.

My concern with the neighborhood wouldn't be rape, it'd be drugs. I've lived in neighborhoods like that. The main danger is that you'll be mugged by some addict and beaten/killed in the process, not raped. (And indeed I was beaten in a neighborhood like that, though the guy didn't manage to rob me.) Rapes are generally perpetrated by people who know the woman -- family members, guys she's dating, people already in her life.

All of what you said, but this bit especially -- and including the "she didn't say no like she meant it" and "she didn't say no eight times because I go by telemarketing rules and the first seven no's all mean I just gotta show her she means yes."

I would educate my son as daughter to take precautions; I don't see how this is misogynst.

This has nothing to do with victim-blaming mentality.

"Watch yourself" isn't misogynist. But a conversation where the emphasis is on telling women what they should to do avoid rape, and does not talk about preventing people from raping/assaulting and prosecuting/punishing those who do is misogynist (also usually full of misinformation and wrong ideas about what deters rape). This is part of what leads to people blaming rape victims for being raped. "She should have" etc. Or: "She must have wanted it, otherwise she'd have ____."

That's pretty much how it goes. And AD, surely you've seen guys behaving that way when they've done other things wrong, insisting like crazy that they haven't and in fact they're the victims for being accused, even though the evidence that *yes, they did that bad thing* is staring them squarely in the face and everyone else can see it too. And they've actually managed to BS themselves into believing that they did nothing wrong, everything was someone else's fault, it wasn't anything bad, etc.

If I collected 100 rape victims in a room -- not hard to do, every woman knows other women who've been raped -- I don't think you'd hear too many "sociopath raped me" stories. You'd hear a lot of "my boyfriend's roommate" and "this guy from my class" and "my boyfriend" and "my boss" and "my old friend" and things like that. It's guys who want a thing, don't quite see women as people, figure they can get away with it and that it's somehow their turn and they're overdue a favor from the universe, have decided it's a forgettable thing, and are persuaded that their wanting something bad is the deciding factor. Some of them even convince themselves they've done the woman a favor.

starvingartist is also correct: none of the advice on offer here has been helpful. Which is what happens if you're disinclined to understand what rape really is, how it actually goes, and instead want to cling to a fantasy in which rapists are sociopathic mauraders in silhouette against a brick wall in a bad neighborhood. And are certainly not anyone you might know or be friends with.

No one is saying that here; these are simply precautions tips from parent to child; surely I wouldn't blame son/daughter if they get raped (nor anyone else).

Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 30 Aug 2014, 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

You guys are talking about cognitive dissonance, where someone is not able to process a piece of information because it so conclusively contradicts a deeply held belief, often about themselves, that the brain constructs elaborate theories and justifications to avoid confronting that psychologically damaging truth. It's hardly unique to sexual predators, I'm most familiar with it from my research into cops and prosecutors who refuse to acknowledge when they've put the wrong person in jail, even in the face of incontrovertible DNA evidence implicating the real perp who has a long record of similar crimes; they see themselves as good men fighting evil, and good men don't lock up the wrong guys, period, it's damaging to their psyche to even consider it.

So, contra some of the other posters, the male advice on offer does offer some protection from some types of rapists?

er -- I've yet to hear a woman say, "gosh, I'm sure glad I got raped by the family type of rapist rather than the predatory-douchecanoe-at-a-party-type rapist!" The point being that the important bit isn't "which kind of guy assaulted you"; it's "did you get assaulted". And no, the advice given is not helpful in reducing those numbers, in large part because most rape isn't committed by strangers.

Here's another suggestion, though, for making sure women don't get raped by strangers who spike their drinks at bars: a city ordinance that kicks in whenever sexual assault rates hit some threshhold in a bar or bar district. Bars will have cameras; patrons will have identifying stickers or wristbands. Rape victim advocacy groups will be allowed to review the video. Bounties will be offered for info leading to arrest, etc. Now, will this damage business? Oh, probably. Which gives bar owners incentive to guard against it.

In other words, make the rapists and those setting up the venue responsible.

Yep. Does more damage than just about any other common thought pattern I know.

I never was a big asker. But I've also heard "no" enough times to understand that a woman isn't going to wait for me to ask before she tells me "no."

No I haven't seen it because when I did go to clubs and pubs, me and my friends had a code to never take advantage of drunk women and make sure they get home safely. I know that I couldn't just go out and commit a horrific crime that may traumatise someone as it would also cause me trauma and pain so it's definitely a psychological switch. I don't think I have met any male rapists but there are women who also rape, it is an abuse of power over another human being and not just about sex.

If I knew of any rapists or pedophiles, I'd be calling the police and crime watch.

AD, given the rate at which women get sexually assaulted, odds are excellent that you do know a rapist or two. You'll never hear about it because it's a romance that "fizzled", or an event involving people you don't know, or...well, you know, who really wants to talk about doing a thing like that?

This guy in my department who just got investigated on a harassment complaint...I'd never have guessed it. Why should I? Just like the science writing dude. Everyone was shocked except the women who'd been harassed.

When 1/5 to 1/4 of all women in a country are reporting rape, the problem's not a handful of crazy "nobody I could know" guys. The problem is it's something people do.