The problem with letting a woman know you care about looks

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07 Jun 2012, 1:50 pm

metaldanielle wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
If a man isn't attracted to someone, he's shallow. If a woman isn't attracted to someone, it's "lack of chemistry".

No one said that. Except for you. The title of the of the thread specifically says The problem with letting a woman know. I guess u missed that part. No one said you can't have a type. You just don't don't have to rub the fact that that she isn't attractive to you in her face. And yes some women are so sensitive that even mentioning an unattractive trait hurts them.



As are some MEN. The OPosters points is well taken. But if consideration goes BOTH WAYS, ladies! If you as a woman rub it in a guys face about how repulsive you think he is, then when a guy does it to you, well, what goes around comes around. In general: If you can't take, don't dish it out.

And guys: There really is No *correct answer* when a woman asks you a candid question about her appearance. I say respond with a smart-assed retort that does not actually answer her question.Lots of women are insecure about their appearance, but it really isn't our job to reassure them. They need to learn to cope with those feelings themselves.



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07 Jun 2012, 2:54 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
metaldanielle wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
If a man isn't attracted to someone, he's shallow. If a woman isn't attracted to someone, it's "lack of chemistry".

No one said that. Except for you. The title of the of the thread specifically says The problem with letting a woman know. I guess u missed that part. No one said you can't have a type. You just don't don't have to rub the fact that that she isn't attractive to you in her face. And yes some women are so sensitive that even mentioning an unattractive trait hurts them.



As are some MEN. The OPosters points is well taken. But if consideration goes BOTH WAYS, ladies! If you as a woman rub it in a guys face about how repulsive you think he is, then when a guy does it to you, well, what goes around comes around. In general: If you can't take, don't dish it out.

And guys: There really is No *correct answer* when a woman asks you a candid question about her appearance. I say respond with a smart-assed retort that does not actually answer her question.Lots of women are insecure about their appearance, but it really isn't our job to reassure them. They need to learn to cope with those feelings themselves.


Yes. Absolutely. Seen plenty of times women have described men as ugly, as creepy (for doing fairly innocuous stuff), as pervy (for the horrible crime of, gasp, being attracted to women).

And when this happens, everyone takes them seriously. And if a guy asks what the person did wrong, or says that maybe she's being a little unfair, he's shouted down by loads of women saying that she has every right to feel as she does, and express those feelings.

While, as we've seen in recent weeks, any man who describes why he might find a woman unattractive is immediately derided as a sexist pig.


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07 Jun 2012, 6:45 pm

mds_02 wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
metaldanielle wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
If a man isn't attracted to someone, he's shallow. If a woman isn't attracted to someone, it's "lack of chemistry".

No one said that. Except for you. The title of the of the thread specifically says The problem with letting a woman know. I guess u missed that part. No one said you can't have a type. You just don't don't have to rub the fact that that she isn't attractive to you in her face. And yes some women are so sensitive that even mentioning an unattractive trait hurts them.



As are some MEN. The OPosters points is well taken. But if consideration goes BOTH WAYS, ladies! If you as a woman rub it in a guys face about how repulsive you think he is, then when a guy does it to you, well, what goes around comes around. In general: If you can't take, don't dish it out.

And guys: There really is No *correct answer* when a woman asks you a candid question about her appearance. I say respond with a smart-assed retort that does not actually answer her question.Lots of women are insecure about their appearance, but it really isn't our job to reassure them. They need to learn to cope with those feelings themselves.


Yes. Absolutely. Seen plenty of times women have described men as ugly, as creepy (for doing fairly innocuous stuff), as pervy (for the horrible crime of, gasp, being attracted to women).

And when this happens, everyone takes them seriously. And if a guy asks what the person did wrong, or says that maybe she's being a little unfair, he's shouted down by loads of women saying that she has every right to feel as she does, and express those feelings.

While, as we've seen in recent weeks, any man who describes why he might find a woman unattractive is immediately derided as a sexist pig.


I don't see that an accurate representation of what is going on here, although I can't speak for every post written.

My point was just to let guys know that women, including super attractive women, tend to view male comments about unattractiveness as turn-offs, and men who chase after only the most beautiful women as not likely to end up in a relationship, at the cost of potentially wonderful relationships with women who aren't as obviously beautiful to every guy out there. If a guy doesn't care about being in a relationship, or is being successful with his dating while holding those ideas, then, well, it is just a personal difference. Not for me, but why should I care? But when a guy complains about how shallow women are, how he can't get a date, isn't being successful with women, etc., and STILL hangs onto his right to talk however he wants ... well, it seems a little like being unwilling and unable to see how his own words play a part in his not getting the dates he wants.


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07 Jun 2012, 7:34 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
But when a guy complains about how shallow women are, how he can't get a date, isn't being successful with women, etc., and STILL hangs onto his right to talk however he wants ... well, it seems a little like being unwilling and unable to see how his own words play a part in his not getting the dates he wants.



Stop making this into a gender issue! I constantly hear women whining complaining about how "shallow" men are for judging women on their appearance while still sticking to their standards and not accepting men who don't fit the perfect mold......As if they are entitled to have whatever they consider to be the perfect, ideal man but think men shouldn't judge them the way they judge men,

Nobody likes to be criticized for their appearance and/or told that they unattractive. It doesn't matter what the persons gender or sexual orientation. Neglecting your health, hygiene, and grooming just because you are in a relationship is very inconsiderate and if you do this and find that you get dumped, you can only blame yourself.



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07 Jun 2012, 7:42 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Nobody likes to be criticized for their appearance and/or told that they unattractive. It doesn't matter what the persons gender or sexual orientation. Neglecting your health, hygiene, and grooming just because you are in a relationship is very inconsiderate and if you do this and find that you get dumped, you can only blame yourself.


+ 1



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07 Jun 2012, 8:18 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
I do know this can be very hard for some with ASD.

well, it becomes distressing and frustrating that it ends up worthless, if women or men or whatever are going to feel greatly offended by an honest opinion, because it would take too much effort to be political correct or failing to know what is "acceptable" to their eyes and what isn't, when you say something, then honestly, f**k them.

I doubt your generalization about attractive women being like this, as what I have heard has been quite the opossite such as blaming fat people for being fat, and some being brutaly honest and having big mouths, so no I really don't buy this "attractive women are turn off by...." crap that much.



Last edited by blunnet on 07 Jun 2012, 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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07 Jun 2012, 8:21 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
But when a guy complains about how shallow women are, how he can't get a date, isn't being successful with women, etc., and STILL hangs onto his right to talk however he wants ... well, it seems a little like being unwilling and unable to see how his own words play a part in his not getting the dates he wants.



Stop making this into a gender issue! I constantly hear women whining complaining about how "shallow" men are for judging women on their appearance while still sticking to their standards and not accepting men who don't fit the perfect mold......As if they are entitled to have whatever they consider to be the perfect, ideal man but think men shouldn't judge them the way they judge men,

Nobody likes to be criticized for their appearance and/or told that they unattractive. It doesn't matter what the persons gender or sexual orientation. Neglecting your health, hygiene, and grooming just because you are in a relationship is very inconsiderate and if you do this and find that you get dumped, you can only blame yourself.


I haven't denied that. I was addressing something specific I have heard men on this forum say.

We can switch the words around to "when a woman complains about how shallow men are, how she can't get a date, isn't being successful with men, etc., and STILL hangs onto her right to talk however she wants ... well, it seems a little like being unwilling and unable to see how her own words play a part in her not getting the dates she wants." The revision could also include numerous other traits, like if the "her own words" part was talking about, maybe, "I love to spend other people's money!," but the concept is the same. I've certainly known women who have dug their own graves in the dating world, too.

Fortunately, both men and women can mature and learn not to say things that turn off the other gender when looking for dates or having relationships. I know what to keep my mouth shut on around my husband, and he knows what to keep his mouth shut on around me.


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07 Jun 2012, 8:24 pm

blunnet wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I do know this can be very hard for some with ASD.

well, it becomes distressing and frustrating that it ends up worthless, if women or men or whatever are going to feel greatly offended by an honest opinion, because it would take too much effort to be political correct or failing to know what is "acceptable" to their eyes and what isn't, when you say something, then honestly, f**k them.

I doubt your generalization about attractive women being like this, as what I have heard has been quite the opossite such as blaming fat people for being fat, so not really.


Some yes, some not. It will vary. I am saying that it is not uncommon; I've many many attractive women who felt that way, that did not want to be loved just for their looks, and did worry what would happen if they lost their looks.

I understand it gets frustrating, and f-k it is a valid position. Just realize it can limit your options. But if that is what you need, that is what you need, and so be it with the more limited options.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 07 Jun 2012, 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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07 Jun 2012, 8:28 pm

AScomposer13413 wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
Nobody likes to be criticized for their appearance and/or told that they unattractive. It doesn't matter what the persons gender or sexual orientation. Neglecting your health, hygiene, and grooming just because you are in a relationship is very inconsiderate and if you do this and find that you get dumped, you can only blame yourself.


+ 1


You've got two very different concepts here.

First sentence, totally agree with.

Last sentence, there isn't much "just because you are in a relationship" in real life. Usually you have no choice, life takes over, and people want to know that will be OK.

I have never met anyone who neglected their health and grooming JUST because they are in a relationship. That isn't how it happens. Things get crazy, other priorities take over, they feel forced to neglect it ... or people get sick and are unable to take care of things ... and, yes, then they feel someone who loves them should understand. That is part of "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health."

In my opinion, a good partner helps the person who seems to be neglecting them-self find a solution to the issues. It could be as simple as coming home from work early three nights a week to cook dinner and take care of kids so the spouse can get a work out in. Excess weight never has to be mentioned.


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07 Jun 2012, 9:00 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Excess weight never has to be mentioned.


You're right, it doesn't. But you went and mentioned it anyway.



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07 Jun 2012, 9:12 pm

I'm thinking people in general are going to have a negative reaction to "criticism" in regards to their looks and are going to become offended.

Sometimes you can mitigate the "offense" by choosing your phrasing with care.

"I'm usually not attracted to red-haired people with freckles," is better than "I'd never date a disgusting ginger freak with spots."

As for why someone might have reservations about getting into a long-term relationship with a person who seems overly concerned with looks, perhaps they're worried if they got into a disfiguring accident, or contracted an "unattractive" disease, their SO would dump them. I'd like to point out that everybody gets "old and ugly" at some point.


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07 Jun 2012, 9:18 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
I'm thinking people in general are going to have a negative reaction to "criticism" in regards to their looks and are going to become offended.

Sometimes you can mitigate the "offense" by choosing your phrasing with care.

"I'm usually not attracted to red-haired people with freckles," is better than "I'd never date a disgusting ginger freak with spots."

As for why someone might have reservations about getting into a long-term relationship with a person who seems overly concerned with looks, perhaps they're worried if they got into a disfiguring accident, or contracted an "unattractive" disease, their SO would dump them. I'd like to point out that everybody gets "old and ugly" at some point.


I agree with your sentiments. I just find it quite disappointing in the polar versions of these threads and in this thread people unfortunately twist and distort the argument beyond ridicule to fit to their agenda simply because they have issues with their own looks they have not yet worked out. I'm not the greatest looking guy. Yes I'm going to find people insulting my looks offensive. It's a no brainer. But there's no way in hell you'd see me be as crazy as to use a discussion topic in a forum for Asperger's as my way of justifying why I haven't made the effort to look after myself or force everyone to think they should take anyone and not have a right to think otherwise in fear it may hurt my fragile ego. Sorry if I seem a little vented but this whole back and forth that has been going on in the last month on the matter has been getting ridiculous.

As for why you shouldn't tell a girl you care too much about looks - as you said, they fear the slightest change will result in being dumped or divorced. That's a no brainer, too. And here's another one, it makes people feel insecure about themselves, and those insecurities manifest in many different ways. Example; It might backfire, the person you are with might end up vulnerable to flattery from someone else and cheating occurs. I really don't know how this topic got so heated let alone past any discussion beyond basic denominators as to why it would be a bad thing, but I guess this is the nature of how forums work.



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07 Jun 2012, 9:31 pm

JanuaryMan wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
I'm thinking people in general are going to have a negative reaction to "criticism" in regards to their looks and are going to become offended.

Sometimes you can mitigate the "offense" by choosing your phrasing with care.

"I'm usually not attracted to red-haired people with freckles," is better than "I'd never date a disgusting ginger freak with spots."

As for why someone might have reservations about getting into a long-term relationship with a person who seems overly concerned with looks, perhaps they're worried if they got into a disfiguring accident, or contracted an "unattractive" disease, their SO would dump them. I'd like to point out that everybody gets "old and ugly" at some point.


I agree with your sentiments. I just find it quite disappointing in the polar versions of these threads and in this thread people unfortunately twist and distort the argument beyond ridicule to fit to their agenda simply because they have issues with their own looks they have not yet worked out. I'm not the greatest looking guy. Yes I'm going to find people insulting my looks offensive. It's a no brainer. But there's no way in hell you'd see me be as crazy as to use a discussion topic in a forum for Asperger's as my way of justifying why I haven't made the effort to look after myself or force everyone to think they should take anyone and not have a right to think otherwise in fear it may hurt my fragile ego. Sorry if I seem a little vented but this whole back and forth that has been going on in the last month on the matter has been getting ridiculous.

As for why you shouldn't tell a girl you care too much about looks - as you said, they fear the slightest change will result in being dumped or divorced. That's a no brainer, too. And here's another one, it makes people feel insecure about themselves, and those insecurities manifest in many different ways. Example; It might backfire, the person you are with might end up vulnerable to flattery from someone else and cheating occurs. I really don't know how this topic got so heated let alone past any discussion beyond basic denominators as to why it would be a bad thing, but I guess this is the nature of how forums work.


You know, guys, these are excellent comments. We could have skipped the whole thread if that had been the first post. It is, basically, what I was trying to say, but it seems pretty obvious I didn't succeed.


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07 Jun 2012, 9:37 pm

JanuaryMan wrote:
I agree with your sentiments. I just find it quite disappointing in the polar versions of these threads and in this thread people unfortunately twist and distort the argument beyond ridicule to fit to their agenda simply because they have issues with their own looks they have not yet worked out.


Yeah, I suspect "looks" are just reeeaaaalllly personal with some people.

In this forum, I've noticed there are certain things that tend to set people off pretty quickly, such as body weight for women and joblessness for men ("I'd never date a fat girl," verses "I wouldn't even look at a bum who lived with his mom after 20.").

Chalk it up to lack of social insight on both sides?

Quote:
I'm not the greatest looking guy. Yes I'm going to find people insulting my looks offensive. It's a no brainer. But there's no way in hell you'd see me be as crazy as to use a discussion topic in a forum for Asperger's as my way of justifying why I haven't made the effort to look after myself or force everyone to think they should take anyone and not have a right to think otherwise in fear it may hurt my fragile ego. Sorry if I seem a little vented but this whole back and forth that has been going on in the last month on the matter has been getting ridiculous.


Cool beans.

I just accept that not everybody is attracted to everybody. And I reject the notion that someone is somehow obligated to be attracted to someone else. Love and dating isn't "fair" and it never will be.

Quote:
As for why you shouldn't tell a girl you care too much about looks - as you said, they fear the slightest change will result in being dumped or divorced. That's a no brainer, too. And here's another one, it makes people feel insecure about themselves, and those insecurities manifest in many different ways. Example; It might backfire, the person you are with might end up vulnerable to flattery from someone else and cheating occurs. I really don't know how this topic got so heated let alone past any discussion beyond basic denominators as to why it would be a bad thing, but I guess this is the nature of how forums work.


At least it's how THIS forum works. :wink:

There's a lot of emotionally raw folks in here.


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07 Jun 2012, 9:44 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
JanuaryMan wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
I'm thinking people in general are going to have a negative reaction to "criticism" in regards to their looks and are going to become offended.

Sometimes you can mitigate the "offense" by choosing your phrasing with care.

"I'm usually not attracted to red-haired people with freckles," is better than "I'd never date a disgusting ginger freak with spots."

As for why someone might have reservations about getting into a long-term relationship with a person who seems overly concerned with looks, perhaps they're worried if they got into a disfiguring accident, or contracted an "unattractive" disease, their SO would dump them. I'd like to point out that everybody gets "old and ugly" at some point.


I agree with your sentiments. I just find it quite disappointing in the polar versions of these threads and in this thread people unfortunately twist and distort the argument beyond ridicule to fit to their agenda simply because they have issues with their own looks they have not yet worked out. I'm not the greatest looking guy. Yes I'm going to find people insulting my looks offensive. It's a no brainer. But there's no way in hell you'd see me be as crazy as to use a discussion topic in a forum for Asperger's as my way of justifying why I haven't made the effort to look after myself or force everyone to think they should take anyone and not have a right to think otherwise in fear it may hurt my fragile ego. Sorry if I seem a little vented but this whole back and forth that has been going on in the last month on the matter has been getting ridiculous.

As for why you shouldn't tell a girl you care too much about looks - as you said, they fear the slightest change will result in being dumped or divorced. That's a no brainer, too. And here's another one, it makes people feel insecure about themselves, and those insecurities manifest in many different ways. Example; It might backfire, the person you are with might end up vulnerable to flattery from someone else and cheating occurs. I really don't know how this topic got so heated let alone past any discussion beyond basic denominators as to why it would be a bad thing, but I guess this is the nature of how forums work.


You know, guys, these are excellent comments. We could have skipped the whole thread if that had been the first post. It is, basically, what I was trying to say, but it seems pretty obvious I didn't succeed.



Romance, love, and dating = minefield requiring very high level of social skills and tolerance for drama.

Asperger's people = folks with low social skills that prefer consistency and situations that make sense.

Frustration, anger, and misunderstanding is inevitable. But I think your intent was noble even if the execution was a bit clumsy. We learn and move forward.

:D


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09 Jun 2012, 1:15 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
it is not OK to say things like "your nose is ugly" because there is nothing that can be gained from telling someone that except to hurt them. It is not OK to tell a young child that a drawing they are proud of is awful because, again, there is nothing constructive in it. In general, constructive criticism, when made with some tact, about something a person needs to know is socially OK; destructive criticism, or criticism that has no place (like being negative about something that simply makes someone else happy) is frowned upon.

So, by your description of the social rule, truth must include purpose.

That's the thing. Emily asked this guy about how he really feels regarding a potential partner gaining weight, and he was truthful. If he didn't answer her question directly by stating something as you suggest like, "I would care about her health and well-being and work to get her better," he may not be lying, but he's most definitely leading her on if there is a real chance that he will dump her if her lifestyle changes to the point that she stops caring about her looks. There is a point and a purpose to her asking a question to which the answer she might not want to hear (otherwise she wouldn't have asked it in the first place if she wanted to just keep believing in the fairy tale that ALL guys will stick around for that kind of thing), and there is a real point and purpose to him answering truthfully and honestly despite it running the risk of hurting her feelings.

The example you gave is of two people actually analyzing their dating compatibility. Their need to be truthful and honest is paramount, and not be deflective when the tougher questions come up. This is what you are saying was wrong of him to do, and I disagree. I think it's the most important time to be honest in communications.

DW_a_mom wrote:
People shouldn't need to have a thick skin in most situations, especially home life. And isn't dating all about figuring out who you could have a happy home life with?

Dating for me was about learning how to grow a thick skin. I dated some abusive guys, and I dated some non-abusive guys around whom I tailored myself to match up with, rather than just being myself. I agree, it shouldn't be that way. My partner should be my partner, not my enemy. However, it's a fairy tale to think I will never have need to don a thick skin. If the guy I'm with many years from now is going to start loosing respect for me or loosing his attraction towards me because I start becoming sedentary and gaining weight, I'd rather like to know that up front instead of wasting many years on him only to have him dump me because I don't want to be as active as he expects of me later in life. Yes, it IS all about finding out with whom you could have a happy home life.

DW_a_mom wrote:
to blame victims

A willing participant in a conversation is not a victim. Emily asked the question - she was not a victim of his response. She knowingly asked a question expecting a truthful answer, and that is exactly what she got. She is responsible for how his words made her feel, not the other way around.

Even in your example of the child with an art project, you agree that if the child asks for open feedback, they are opening themselves up to potential criticism. People need to be taught that when they do that, they have no right to hold the other person responsible for their level of honesty, no matter how much it "hurts their feelings." Parents and teachers are at liberty to provide open feedback even without prompting, because their role insinuates that prompting is inherent to that relationship. This is why adults get upset when others provide unsolicited feedback. I think people should be prepared for unsolicited feedback all the time, but at the same time, a agree that unsolicited feedback shouldn't really be given regardless, but people are going to do what people do, Aspie or NT.

DW_a_mom wrote:
BOTH SIDES have to work on moving towards the middle.

Yes, which means both sides have to be seen as equal parties in a discussion, not unequal parties in a non-intended attack.

DW_a_mom wrote:
Unnecessary roughness, even if it is only verbally, is abuse and it destroys people.

It only destroys people who are weak and do not know how to properly handle it. Whining about hurt feelings is a way of dealing with it, but I do not believe it is a proper way of dealing with it. People aren't taught how to properly accept that their opinion isn't always the only opinion. Instead, people believe that their opinion is the RIGHT opinion, and therefore all other opinions are WRONG, and then they break out into emotionally-heightened fights about their opinions instead of getting to know each others' opinions through open discussions.

DW_a_mom wrote:
It is not OK to tell a young child that a drawing they are proud of is awful because, again, there is nothing constructive in it.

Perhaps according to your opinion, this is the case, but your opinion is not universal. Those parents are specifically enacting a harmful mindset with the purpose of building their child up to be even stronger. It's the same thing all of our troops go through during basic training. It does exist, and it's not for everyone - plenty of people drop out of basic training. I'm just saying that I don't feel that one opinion is any better than another when both have logical reasons for why they exist. Some people run their households in a more laissez faire manner, going on the principles that as long as they aren't hurting someone else, then it's cool. But what happens when one person gets hurt and it's NOT the fault of the other person. I don't believe that expressing an opinion about art work denotes fault because the other person gets their feelings hurt about it. True, there may be no point to expressing such an opinion other than to express it, but that doesn't also make the person culpable for enacting a harmful statement. I am not saying that there are not consequences, because some people will still get their feelings hurt, and they will stop talking to that person, or they will fire them from their job, etc. Teaching that there are consequences is fine by me - I totally agree with this, but teaching someone that they are doing WRONG by speaking their mind is stretching it in my opinion. Showing the results of their actions without making them to feel bad because they had those opinions is also a very, very fine line, but to me a very important one. When one person apologizes because the other person's feelings got hurt, they are not apologizing for being honest. They are apologizing because there were unforeseen consequences. They are apologizing because the other person didn't have a tough enough skin to handle the truth, and they are apologizing because they want the situation to get better, not because they suddenly have had a change of heart and really think that piece of art work is a Picasso in the making. They are apologizing because someone has used emotional tactics to make them feel bad for having an opinion and they wish to resolve that conflict. The most they learn is to keep their opinions to themselves, but they don't learn how to change their opinions. That only happens when people openly discuss the pros and cons of such opinions, which isn't going to happen if people are learning to keep their big mouths shut.