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This is exactly the problem with incel forums: they tell all the men that go there that there is nothing more important in life than sex with women, and if you can't get that then you will never ever get it and therefore "it's over" and all incels should just "rope" (hang themselves")--that there is no other reason to live than sex with women, and without sex with women there could never be any other reason to go on living. It's a suicide cult, it brainwashes people with that toxic dogma. People who've been exposed to that will need extensive therapy to deprogram them from the incel ideology, like a person who has left a cult. That's exactly why incels claim that therapy is a scam, so that no one will ever find a way out of their hate-filled crab bucket.

The idea that life is unliveable without sex is the very centre of what is wrong with incel thinking.

Believing that in general there's nothing more important in life than sex with women is unhealthy, and believing that just because you can't have sex now means that you never will is not necessarily true, but when you can't get something that you really, really, really want over a long period of time whilst having to watch the majority of others around you being able to get it is going to make you feel sh*tty and inferior, like your wants, needs and desires don't matter. Forbidden fruit is always the sweetest, and in my experience, the longer someone who desires a relationship or sex goes without it, the more they want it. This is even more true for those who've never had a relationship or sex. Moreover, when you have a long-standing problem or strong unfulfilled desire, I'd say particularly if you're on the spectrum, you're more inclined to fixate.

For me personally, I struggle to see how therapy could help in any significant way. The only way I can feel better is if I get a partner, or have reason to believe that I have the potential to find a partner. There's no ignoring my desire for a partner, or overcoming it without fulfilling it or at the very least having it feel like a plausible goal. The only way focusing on other aspects of my life with a therapist could help with this particular problem is if improving them improve my chances of finding a partner. It's not a problem I can simply ignore and get over. It's either got to be fixed or life just isn't worth living for me with the ensuing self-esteem issues and loneliness. I'm not going to be alone my whole life, and if I am, it'll be cut short. I'm going to give self-improvement a fair chance before I even consider giving up, because I think ultimately that's the path to getting a relationship when you fail to attract anyone, and I suspect if done correctly it will work, but if not, why would I want to sign myself up for a life of romantic loneliness? Never able to pass on my genes, never able to experience romantic companionship, never able to have sexual intercourse with another interested person. No thanks

What this tells me is that you've never experienced good therapy, or you would be able to imagine how it could improve your life and help change your thinking around this issue. Maybe what you need to do is look for testimonials from people who've been where you are and got help and got out of that mindset, maybe that would help you see how you (and other guys in your situation) could benefit from therapy. Maybe that would help you to see how it's possible. Because if there are guys that got sucked into the incel mindset and got out again (and there are, I've talked to some), that means there is hope that you could move on from this fixation on a lack of romantic success that is causing you so much suffering. If they can do it, you can do it too. If hurtloam can learn how to be happy as a single person, so can you. And she's not alone, there are many people who live alone who are happy that way--it usually depends on what kind of support system they have (as in, how good their relationships are with friends and family), and if they manage to fill their lives with other things that have meaning to them.

You beat me to it!

Therapy is fine for severe cases, like PTSD in a war. And even then, it needs to be supplemented with medications. But for garden-variety cases young people deal with, like "my parents don't understand me" or "no girl likes me", therapy is useless at best, and traumatizing at worst. Because therapists are too dumb to do anything besides ask "how did that make you feel?" and parrot back what the patient said. And when you come to therapy to find a real, workable solution, how will all this help? You already know how you feel and what you just said. You don't need some quack to rub your misery in your face and mock you. You need a real solution, which therapists won't give you, because if they did, you won't keep coming back and paying them.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: The idea of any sexual act, not just intercourse but foreplay too, disgusts me! Like sticking my head into an used toilet. I can't even look at lingerie commercials without throwing up in my mouth a little, let alone pornography. I do enjoy hugs and cuddling, as long as it's fully clothed. Also French kissing if I'm really drunk. But that's it! So what does that make me?

Last edited by Aspie1 on 15 Jan 2019, 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This post is 12 different kinds of wonderful.
Thank you so much.

"Good therapy", hmm... What's the next thing you're going to tell us: that the Pope is Lutheran? Please!

As for testimonials, I don't trust those. Nearly all of them are written by NTs, who have the social skills to intuitively figure out what the therapist wants to hear and comply with the unspoken therapy rules. I had no such luxury.

I've already told you I'm not interested in talking to you and you make me uncomfortable. Please stop.

As an example of some testimonials of guys who've been there and come back from being incel: there is a subreddit called r/IncelTears that has a weekly advice thread. It's a place for guys who are struggling with finding relationships to find a way out of the brainwashing by talking to people who've also struggled with relationships and came back from the sort of negative mindset that incels have, often by getting treatment for the issues contributing to their struggle like depression and social anxiety among other things.

You will also sometimes see threads in the forum created by former incels telling their story about how they fell into the crab bucket and how they managed to get themselves back out again, and offering to talk to incels in the comments that are looking for advice on how to do the same. For anyone here who feels like they might be struggling with these issues, that could be a place to start.

There are people who can understand how you feel because they've been where you are, but they managed to get help and now they want to share about what worked for them so they can help others. Look for those people, look for stories of inspiration from people who can understand what you are suffering because they used to suffer in the same way but have found a way out.

Don't search for all the reasons it's "over" for you--that's a depressed brain lying to you; instead search for practical solutions that have worked for others in your predicament.

You also forgot the Elliot manifesto, they talk about it as if it's a bible.

Anyway, Incels aren't a new thing, weren't they called PUAhate before?

I agree with Aspie1 on the Freudian therapy technique. I don't see the point of it.

I'm advocating therapy with a purpose. My therapist really wanted me to get better and was really happy when I had made progress and was glad to set me free into the wilderness with my newly built coping skills.

She got me to keep a diary, not so much of wallowing in my feelings, but to recognise what caused such feelings and then find something positive to do to counteract those feelings.

For example, feeling lonely? then arrange to meet up with an acquaintance for a coffee and get to know them better. She taught me that it's ok to open up to people and got me to stop being such a perfectionist.

Feeling down, but no one is available to meet up? Do something that makes you happy instead. Draw a picture, go for a walk, read a book.

I was really impressed with her a polity to draw me out when j had trouble explaining myself. She didn't just repeat things back to me. She conversed with me.

A good therapist will want to help you. If you are not making progress then, yes, ditch them.

Apparently there's a therapist for every person in the US and UK.

This one sounds more like a 'socialization therapist' , not the typical shrink.

What this response tells me is you've never experienced anything similar to what I'm going through. I've been to a few different therapists over the years and it would always get to the point where they would not really know how to proceed and ask me what I hoped to gain from having sessions with them, and I would be stumped on how to answer. Mulling that over made me realise that if they can't help me get to a stage where I have a romantic partner, or at least have reason to believe that I can get a romantic partner, then they can't help me in that arena of life. For me, there is no coming to terms with not being able to get a partner. I'm either able to or I don't see the point in living because I'm never going to be living the life I wish to live, with a wife and potentially a family. I'm constantly going to feel inferior to everyone who can get relationships and spouses and sex and all the rest of it, and there is no way around it, that would ruin life for me to the point that I'd rather be put to sleep permanently. Therapists not being able to help me in my pursuit of a girlfriend = therapists not being able to help me in any significant way in that important facet of life that is causing my depression. I only started becoming depressed when it started to become apparent that others around me were able to get into relationships and that aspect of life was out of reach for me, and as long as it remains out of my reach I will continue to be depressed. All it would take is hope that a relationship isn't out of my reach and good reason to believe it to make me feel significantly better, even if I was still single or ended up single again.

I don't hang out on incel forums or agree with the majority of what they espouse, and I felt depressed and had the same outlook I have now long before I'd ever even known of their existence, so you can't pin this on brain washing or anything. It's perfectly natural to be depressed if you can't get a relationship in spite of strong desires to do so, especially over a prolonged period of time. The only fix is to get the relationship (or at least have hope that you can) or eliminate the desire for a relationship, which for me at least is impossible, so I've got to focus on making the first one work, hence why I believe self-improvement and making myself a more desirabe prospective partner is a superior strategy to therapy.

With regards to other connections, I have good relationships with my family and friends, and I don't take them for granted, but they do nothing to mitigate or satisfy the desire for a romantic relationship. I'm never going to have as intimate a relationship with a friend as I would a significant other, or at the very least we're talking different kinds of intimacy. I don't get to hug, kiss or get physically intimate with my friends, nor would I want to obviously, so that leaves things to be desired. There are a lot of things a romantic relationship can provide that no other relationship can provide.

Would you be satisfied being single and sexless for the entire duration of your life? No? Then don't expect others to be.

Why didn't you tell then that that's what you wanted? You said you were stumped, but went on to write exactly what you wanted.

I think I might just have to be. I've come to accept it. That's why I'm letting people know its ok to live a single life and that you can still be happy.

I've lived through the angst and the hope (and the crushed hope and despair) and now I'm living with peace and acceptance.

I don't expect you to give up. Just to focus less on romance so that it doesn't destroy your enjoyment of life.