The Male beauty standards: Harder to get?

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makuranososhi
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03 Aug 2009, 2:42 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:
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appearance is a scale and spectrum with no guarantees of how you look. Either work with it, fix it, or work around it - but spending time complaining about it is time lost foreve


excellent advice

but again, this thread is not about me.

It's about men's beauty standards vs women's beauty standards. And the question of the thread is: The Male beauty standards: Harder to get?

Got it?


Yes; apparently you missed the point of the response - spending time complaining about whether they are harder to attain (which I disagree with, as many of the metrics used to define women are arbitrary physiological characteristics that are not easily affected) is pointless as you can either do something about it, move on, or waste time complaining about something that you won't change.

So, plainly for you - no, male standards are not harder to attain; further, the subject is indulgent and unproductive. Just my opinion.


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Janissy
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03 Aug 2009, 2:55 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:
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appearance is a scale and spectrum with no guarantees of how you look. Either work with it, fix it, or work around it - but spending time complaining about it is time lost foreve


excellent advice

but again, this thread is not about me.

It's about men's beauty standards vs women's beauty standards. And the question of the thread is: The Male beauty standards: Harder to get?

Got it?


Answer? No. Mainly because the things that you think are immutable beauty standards...aren't. Tom Cruise is shorter than your standard. Rob Pattinson is thinner than your standard. Adrian Brody has a far bigger nose than your standard. Yet they are all handsome. Tom Cruise is never going to get any taller (although he reportedly does wear shoe lifts, so I guess it's attainable). Rob Pattinson's shoulders will never get any broader. And any surgical attempt to make Adrian Brody's nose smaller would result in something I don't even want to think about. So in that sense, the standards you have set forth are unobtainable for men born outside of them. The good news is, they are standards only in your own head and have no bearing on what actual women find attractive in actual men.



MDD123
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03 Aug 2009, 4:34 pm

Looks may sound superficial, but any sociologist will tell you that better-looking people are treated much better. Good-looking children are treated as though they are more capable by teachers and by their peers, the first impression the average joe gets of from a good looking kid is much higher, subconciously the average person is more likely to find this type of child smarter than your average peer.

The reality is that good-looking people draw more attention, they are among the first noticed in a crowd. If they don't meet people's expectations, they run the risk of getting a negative attribute attached to them.



makuranososhi
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03 Aug 2009, 4:40 pm

Appearance is only one way of getting noticed.


M.


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03 Aug 2009, 4:59 pm

Mist01 wrote:
Yeah, I live in the US, but see that's a stereotype that ticks me off. I am strong and confident, as well as sensitive, but I also take care of myself, I use moisturizers, body wash, I trim my eyebrows, try as much as I can to take care of my hair (which is long), but I am not gay at all. Or metro. I just like looking nice and taking care of myself. Would I go to a spa? Yes. Why? Because it's healthy. I guess that makes me gay even though I don't have any sexual attraction to men. Makes perfect sense... -_-
actually, that's pretty much the definition of metrosexual :roll:


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hale_bopp
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03 Aug 2009, 7:31 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:
now now...how come calling you 'more attractive than most celebs' is considered insult? Should I have to worship you too to appease your ego? because I won't.


Because what you said after that was extremely nasty and made me feel like a useless piece of s**t. Also how dare you accuse me of wanting people to worship me? So far, in all my time on WP, only one person has ever done that and I told him to stop on a regular basis. Also what ego. WHAT EGO? I don't HAVE an EGO!! ! You are a nasty guy.



DaWalker
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03 Aug 2009, 8:22 pm

makuranososhi wrote:
Appearance is only one way of getting noticed.

M.

Now just what earth does he mean by that? :lol:
<------- :?: ...Neah, couldn't mean that I ...



:oops:



techstepgenr8tion
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03 Aug 2009, 9:00 pm

MissConstrue wrote:
Well the only input I could give is there is the general bias in media in what beauty is and the bias in what beauty isn't.

Most of those guys who are considered the most sexy men in magazines...I never really found attractive. In fact, I often find myself and some females disagreeing and agreeing in who they find attractive. I think physical attraction is far more complex than what has been posted....at least in my experience.

And no, I've found guys who aren't so tall attractive. As for money...never cared but I don't think that would be considered the first thing a female sees as attractive in a sexual sense. I mean do men..once they spot a hot girl only think about her role as a female before finding her attractive? No I don't think so.

Yes, hygeine is important and there are ways both genders can fix themselves up. The extreme routes such as plastic surgery are not what the other gender chooses for you but what you choose for yourself. I've found some people who have looked worse than better...when they go to too many lengths of trying and looking their ideal way. If anything, I don't think trying to look an ideal way is any easier on one gender than another. You also can't judge someone by their gender in what they consider attractive. It isn't their fault in what is instilled in their brain. Although you can change or influence the way people percieve beauty. For instance, I've known guys who have stereotyped women in my job as being a lesbian or man hater because they're not "femenine" looking enough. Often times I find their assumptions appalling untrue with most of the females I've worked with. Same bs I hear about guys looking femenine....they must be emo or gay which is never always true. So stereotypes in one's looks vs personality are another issue you have to take into account.

Also not everyone female or male are into the mainstrean of beauty in our western culture. Yes there are biological and evolutionary traits such as big boobs...natures way of men seeking women who are fertile for offspring and other traits. But humans are a little more complex than just looking for evolutionary ways of beauty. For instance, I've often found myself attracted to men that aren't so masculine. In fact some of the men who they find attractive...I cringe at. So this topic is a little too narrow in what your theory of beauty is because there are so many other factors along with this: culture, personality, preferences, sexual orientation, body types, clothes (one may feel as if they identify in what another's wearing..as clothes can express the facets of that person yet not always), race (yes there are some people attracted to certain races than others, why I don't know but I hear it a lot especially from guys)...etc.

I believe there is a lot to be said in beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Yes...generally there is a beauty that both people will generally find attractive but it isn't very well concise or what one would consider evolutionary traits since we still don't know what causes some of what we find attractive in people.


:star: :star: :star: :star: :star:

I think the hard part is that people who think like yourself - guys and girls, are usually in day to day life hunkered down in defensive mode to at least some extent. It seems like emotional availability is hugely attractive and its something I grapple with, especially on the outside - a LOT.



MDD123
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03 Aug 2009, 9:34 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
:star: :star: :star: :star: :star:

I think the hard part is that people who think like yourself - guys and girls, are usually in day to day life hunkered down in defensive mode to at least some extent. It seems like emotional availability is hugely attractive and its something I grapple with, especially on the outside - a LOT.


Emotional availability is a paradox for me, if I'm happy, I can use the motivation to listen to other people and help them with self-affirmation. The problem is when I'm not motivated and I can't think of one good thing to say to other people. My silence or lack of enthusiasm is misinterpreted as something malicious against them. I honestly don't know how to work around this problem, I think about how to when I'm in a better mood, but it's still a problem area for me. Do you have any pointers on that?



techstepgenr8tion
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03 Aug 2009, 10:44 pm

MDD123 wrote:
Emotional availability is a paradox for me, if I'm happy, I can use the motivation to listen to other people and help them with self-affirmation. The problem is when I'm not motivated and I can't think of one good thing to say to other people. My silence or lack of enthusiasm is misinterpreted as something malicious against them. I honestly don't know how to work around this problem, I think about how to when I'm in a better mood, but it's still a problem area for me. Do you have any pointers on that?


Its a block for me as well and the sad fact is as an overachiever I've noticed that brain ATP levels still have you on a pretty tight leash with this one, ie. when I'm exerting myself through that - when my will is surpassing it, my brain physically starts tingling, I'll feel like I'm red-lining it and running it right into the ground. Alcohol for me is hit and miss - if its people who already respect me or if its the right types of people that I can mix with - I'm good, other times it either chemically just won't work or the crowd may not help.

Whenever people have wondered whether aspies have the full range of feelings though, I'd have to assert that we do - we just have a load problem; carrying it at NT levels is like trying to carry 10 tons in an S-10 pickup truck for us. I already have had the analogy for a long time of feeling like my mind is something like a JL W6 or W7 running on a 20 watt amp. Those of us who are chemically effected by AS/autism far more than in personality I think have the specific problem of having brain resources stretched paper-thin where, sadly, there's very little in terms of self help solutions aside from know what it is and adapt with that limitation in mind.



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04 Aug 2009, 12:52 am

LPP, one thing I do get bothered by a lot when I think about it - its realizing that there are a lot of guys out there who could be in their mid 30's even and still look like they're in their early to mid-20's. I'm kind of in there, not quite that bad, the reason that bothers me so much is how f***ing cold it is, just in the more holistic sense that their forced into being some sort of genetic anachronisms. It doesn't help with life at all, if anything its something more of a barrier, not quite as nightmarish as the Benjamin Button idea, but I think you can get the drift. I really don't know how well or how bad a lot of guys in that situation deal with it or if they struggle with my sense of it, just that in a world were so much of 'maturity' is visual or skin deep - IMO its a very blighted life to be permanently 10 or 15 years out of phase with your own age group.



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04 Aug 2009, 10:16 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
Well the only input I could give is there is the general bias in media in what beauty is and the bias in what beauty isn't.

Most of those guys who are considered the most sexy men in magazines...I never really found attractive. In fact, I often find myself and some females disagreeing and agreeing in who they find attractive. I think physical attraction is far more complex than what has been posted....at least in my experience.

And no, I've found guys who aren't so tall attractive. As for money...never cared but I don't think that would be considered the first thing a female sees as attractive in a sexual sense. I mean do men..once they spot a hot girl only think about her role as a female before finding her attractive? No I don't think so.

Yes, hygeine is important and there are ways both genders can fix themselves up. The extreme routes such as plastic surgery are not what the other gender chooses for you but what you choose for yourself. I've found some people who have looked worse than better...when they go to too many lengths of trying and looking their ideal way. If anything, I don't think trying to look an ideal way is any easier on one gender than another. You also can't judge someone by their gender in what they consider attractive. It isn't their fault in what is instilled in their brain. Although you can change or influence the way people percieve beauty. For instance, I've known guys who have stereotyped women in my job as being a lesbian or man hater because they're not "femenine" looking enough. Often times I find their assumptions appalling untrue with most of the females I've worked with. Same bs I hear about guys looking femenine....they must be emo or gay which is never always true. So stereotypes in one's looks vs personality are another issue you have to take into account.

Also not everyone female or male are into the mainstrean of beauty in our western culture. Yes there are biological and evolutionary traits such as big boobs...natures way of men seeking women who are fertile for offspring and other traits. But humans are a little more complex than just looking for evolutionary ways of beauty. For instance, I've often found myself attracted to men that aren't so masculine. In fact some of the men who they find attractive...I cringe at. So this topic is a little too narrow in what your theory of beauty is because there are so many other factors along with this: culture, personality, preferences, sexual orientation, body types, clothes (one may feel as if they identify in what another's wearing..as clothes can express the facets of that person yet not always), race (yes there are some people attracted to certain races than others, why I don't know but I hear it a lot especially from guys)...etc.

I believe there is a lot to be said in beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Yes...generally there is a beauty that both people will generally find attractive but it isn't very well concise or what one would consider evolutionary traits since we still don't know what causes some of what we find attractive in people.


:star: :star: :star: :star: :star:

I think the hard part is that people who think like yourself - guys and girls, are usually in day to day life hunkered down in defensive mode to at least some extent. It seems like emotional availability is hugely attractive and its something I grapple with, especially on the outside - a LOT.


Yes...it is one issue I do struggle with as well as empathy or there lack of....

But since I mostly struggle in the language of "normal" feelings, it is easy to be misinterpreted as over the edge hence the name Missconstrue... :wink:


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04 Aug 2009, 8:23 pm

I think the issue with aspie guys is that no one cares about men. I was an aspie guy so I know first hand. In the unsuccessful world no one cares about men, in the successful world men have the upperhand. Men experience lack of sympathy towards them because everyone is born unsuccessful. This is why most homeless people are men, because someone would take in the woman. I remeber being a man and my car got broken down and no one came to help me, I was 18 years old. I was on the side of the road for hours and I had to call someone to come pick me up. Six months ago, I got a flat tire, when I was a woman as I am now, and within 3 minutes or less someone was there to help me. I would've never gotten this treatment and curtousy have I been a man.
If a girl walks down the street by herself someone would come and say "you need a ride". If its a guy, no one would say anything. There are many men who date and marry unsuccessful women (as in have no job, car, etc), but no one wants the guy like that.
I often have meltdowns in public. When I was a male and had a meltdown, at 18 people usually looked at me strange, but a couple weeks ago I had a meltdown and someone came to ask me what was wrong. When Im all by myself people ask me whats wrong, or why Im so lonely. had I been a male, no one would ask me anything. I can recall someone offering me a dollar when I was a male and waiting for my friend outside of a gas station, they thought I was a bum.
But when it comes to the successful world men get paid higher. Also in the celebrity world. No matter how good a woman is at something, the male in her range will always be a little bit more favored. Michael Jackson and Elvis will always have an edge over Madonna who is just as good.
So it equals out. My advice to aspie guys is to stop trying to change your personality and looks and get some money in the bank, because our/your social skills arent good enuff to compete with men who have better social skills. Also if you have money, you'll have an easier chance at the dating game, than the avergage guy with great social skills. Just use your asperger's to its advantage and get a great career. Yes its easier for girls who have asperger's, I would know, and we all know that, so lets not lie to ourselves. But it will be easier for you all if you became successful, because society glorifies successful men, and just give the suceesful woman a pat on the back, no big deal. and you'll also have more pretty women around, cuz thats what you guys want, and every guy wants that. Girls know men want pretty women, so the pretty ones go for the men who are successful. Shallow? well we all are. so just get your lives together finacially and you all should be fine. and teher's nothing wrong with wanting a pretty girl.



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04 Aug 2009, 8:34 pm

but make sure she's now using you for your money and whatnot



MDD123
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04 Aug 2009, 11:53 pm

I like the point you make Ms Doubt, men have to demonstrate some manliness for anyone to take interest in them, and stoicism is a main feature of manliness, so men in a lower situation have no business complaining to begin with.



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05 Aug 2009, 6:03 am

MDD123 wrote:
I like the point you make Ms Doubt, men have to demonstrate some manliness for anyone to take interest in them, and stoicism is a main feature of manliness, so men in a lower situation have no business complaining to begin with.


Yes indeed. men have to demonstrate a certain, narrow type of demeanor. I don't have to act like anything at all to get a guy to approach men, or talk back to me and be interested when I approach him.
Turning off men is very hard. One way to turn off a man is to pick your nose or be mean to him, or do something extremely weird or nasty, but its very hard.
Women on the other hand, its very easy to turn them off. Make one goofy laugh and or strange approach and you are a big turn off.
Im not taking sides, I'm just telling it like it is. For me, a guy doesn't really have to be this certain thing, cuz I've been on the other side. he does have to be a certain thing because we all have our preferences, but just because he's shy or has a weird gait, doesnt mean he's not good in bed or a bad partner.
but yep, thats how it is.