Making a girl work for your affection

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That's one of the reasons I could never go to clubs... aside from the overwhelming atmosphere, I couldn't deal with the idea of being so misogynistic...

This is like saying I should be able to walk into a ghetto with my wallet in my gold-plated hand and expect not to be mugged. I'm sorry, but this is not realistic thinking in the least.

I think it is realistic. And it should be appalling that harassment happens. Women should be able to go out dancing without fear. I should also be able to walk into the grocery store or a gas station without a perverted remark. Men have an overwhelming sense that they can say whatever they want to women and it should be OK. It's not ok. It's sick. It's harassment. Do you also believe that if a woman wears something form fitting and shows any skin that she is asking to be raped? Should a woman not be able to work late at night because men lurk and attack? Women should not have to hide out in their homes in order to be safe.

I always had trouble figuring out if the men were interested in me. People would tell me, "just ask him out!" but the few times I got up the nerve to ask them out they would turn me down. Sometimes I found that they were actually playing coy, and when I left them alone they would start pursuing me. This happened enough to totally confuse me and prevent me making any first moves again. I simply can't play these games or translate these signals correctly.

Of course it's appalling that harassment happens. Everyone should be able to eat unlimited ice cream and dance on rainbows. But the fact remains that there are people who act selfishly and should be taken into account for your own safety and survival. I didn't make the rules. If I did, I'd have nothing to complain about in these here forums.

It's also unrealistic to think that only women are victimized by night-lurkers and sexually manipulative types. Back to the main topic, alot of the decent guys who do not approach women have experiences to back up their decision not to be assertive. Women sometimes lie, soak up money and don't hesitate to take a man for what he's worth... even to the point of spending years cleaning out his coffers.

So if the bad works both ways, why can't the good? The good, in this case, being the prerogative to approach. I personally find it appalling that a woman will shelf herself with a pretty little outfit and expect guys to shower her with compliments so she can get her pick of the litter at her leisure, and it is socially and culturally acceptable!

majority of men here are about as smart as a bowl of oatmeal
and just as unappealing

A woman doing that, however, is not making the situation happen. Men make that happen. If men want to go over and shower her with compliments, its them creating the situation. In the subject of being harassed, that wouldn't be the case. The fact of the matter is, most victims of physical and sexual violence are women.

We all have examples of very negative experiences with the gender we find attractive. Dating is not for the weak at heart- that's for sure. People get rejected. People get used. People get hurt. That happens all around. But I will say what I said earlier-- there is a massive stigma attached to assertive women. "b***h." "Man hater." "Controlling." "Slut." I absolutely do believe that both genders should approach someone they want to get to know better. Most women won't be as assertive because of the way society treats women. It is illegal to use racial slurs and can actually be prosecuted by law. On the other hand saying things such as "he throws like a girl," is normal, encouraged playground talk! Boys are encouraged to discriminate against women.

My point in bringing this up is to give another perspective. It isn't easy on our side either. It's actually quite difficult. It's hard to know which guy is going to follow you home and stalk you. Hard to know which guy just wants to get you in bed and brag about it. Hard to know which guy is not going to take "no" for an answer. The consequences for women are much harsher than a bruised ego or $20 spent on drinks. It's another perspective for men to consider when they demand certain behaviors from women.

MichelleRM78, though the tone of our exchange may seem argumentative, I'm enjoying the exchange very much and do see where you're coming from. You're a class act and handle your side of things very well. I'll cease to bring up worse-case scenarios from here on unless it's applicable.

I don't believe harassment was the OP's concern and I'll restate that I think it's appalling in any given case. It happens and I personally don't contribute to it, so I won't address it any further.

I truly don't think that men "create" the situation mentioned above. More often than not, I see males that I know play haplessly into it because it's simply the only accessible option for them.

The same assertiveness can be turned against men as well, and it happens often here on the forums. Assertive men who know what they want and are quick to state it are often considered jerks, creeps and (get this) accused of harassment. It's a fine and variable line between the two and nobody firmly agrees where that line is. I suppose this is where your "women are complex" comment is applicable.

"Throws like a girl" is comparable to the popularized feminist mantra that "men are dogs." Both are backed up by social and cultural institutions (like sports and talk shows). Women are just as likely encouraged to discriminate against men, even (and in some cases, especially) the ones they're in relationships with.

And concerning consequences, if a bruised ego and $20 is all to be lost, I could certainly live with that without complaining at all. Statistically, women have further reaching social circles than men do. All it takes are hyperbolic "creep" rumors based on five minutes of conversation to shut him out of entire swaths of social opportunities altogether.

I, too, am enjoying the exchange. My reasoning about the "throws like a girl" is actually deeper than just saying "men are dogs." Girls are treated like this from birth. It is something they grow up hearing and it becomes their self image. Boys get made fun of if they have any emotion "don't cry like a little girl." Girls grow up thinking they are less, and boys grow up thinking women are less.

Yes, assertiveness can be taken the wrong way for both men and women. And let me tell you-- I don't feel that men have it easier at all. I have never been a man, and I have never dated from that side of it, but I know a lot of phony women and I feel sorry for the men who have to deal with them. But I do think that giving women attention just for how they look is their own fault. People only do what they can get away with. I won't let someone harass me and put me down. So, yes, I am one of those women labeled a "b***h" by many. I refuse to take the comment of "nice rack" as a compliment (unless its my bf and we are being silly, LOL).

I've met men that have told me straight out that they are out to have sex. I am OK with that. I didn't want to be with them-- but I appreciate the honesty. A guy can be straight foward without being rude and distasteful. They can compliment a woman without being crude.

If you don't mind--- could you give me an example of a woman discriminating against men they are in a relationship with? I cannot come up with an example.

Well, I can only relate personal experience in this regard, but I'll keep it brief.

My first ex-girlfriend was convinced that she had every right to use sex and emotional abuse as a weapon against me because she was convinced by external influences that she was "too good" for me. I found out through third parties who had access to her Facebook messages that she had been plotting to "revenge dump" me for 10 months after professing her "unending love" to me and setting me up to take her seriously (we almost got engaged). Our last two months together were affection-less and she sought to "test" me by making me jump through various hoops (taking her out, asking for gifts that I didn't think much of at the time, promising intimate weekends that she would back out of, etc.). I was crushed to find that it wasn't a result of her mood swings, but calculated dishonesty and game-playing. She has no remorse about the situation to this day and still makes offhand comments about what a loser she thinks I am. This is after I had been there for her when she had no friends and helped her with family and financial issues. If all this was a result of something I'd done wrong, she never told me and wouldn't tell me now. I even outright asked.

Now she proudly peacocks an image of herself as a "girl gone bad" and boys a decade her junior based on their looks. Mind you, we started off in the same boat with similar social phobias. Now she's another common diva.

I won't hijack this thread with my personal issues anymore than this post, but I think it illustrates something I've seen repeatedly in others' situations (a couple of male friends, to be precise).

She expects it because it happens over and over. It's hard not to expect something that keeps happening. If men want that to stop, men merely need to stop meeting her expectation. The next time you see a girl in a sexy dress that showcases cleavage, walk right past her and turn your attention to the wallflower in a non-revealing shirt and ordinary pants. Voila! Social change.

It's not that simple I'm afraid. I've had crude comments thrown at me when the only visible skin was my face and hands but I also know a lot of man who (privately) make very disparaging remarks about women with "slu*ty' outfits and behaviours or women who think the world revolves around them because they are pretty. Too many good looking girls are raised to believe they are entitled to special treatment and a rich, perfect husband to cater to their every whim.

Although I've experienced HUGE differences in attitudes and perceptions from one country to another, Michelle's post about not being able to go to the shop without being harassed sadly reflects my experiences. But I've seen the other side of things too many times and women can be just as bad - prejudiced, manipulative and ruthless. The specific gender related problems men and women experience are equally created and fuelled by both sides.

In such a case, the wallflower is more likely to pull the harassment card than the girl who's "advertising."

I have had experiences of going to clubs in college and I always wore clothes that covered everything except my hands and face. I had to literally hit guys to stop them from touching me (inappropriately) and they acted as if I was the rude one. Can anyone explain to me why this happened?

Mostly because such jackasses like to hang out at clubs, I suppose. Maybe some regulars go there specifically to behave that way.

That's what I thought but I was wondering if there was something more to it. They ignored the girls I was dancing with who were wearing mildly revealing outfits. This was a long time ago, I'm just curious about it.