"Heartless b*****s"(includes words of advice)

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The article isn't meant to hurt sensitive nice guys or make them defensive and passive aggressive about their self-proclaimed kindness. It's meant help nice guys not get exploited or taken for granted, it's about showing nice guys that they don't have to compromise themselves or bend over backwards for someone else to be valued, approved or feel worthy in themselves.

I dare say I have more experience in dating and intimacy than many people on the forum here. I've never known a woman who would go for the typical "bad boys", especially in a romantic sense. Niceness doesn't equal to weakness, insecurity or lack of confidence. We are talking about a person with very different kind of bundle of traits in that scenario. A lot of men seem to think that there only is the alpha male and the other type of male, which is very black and white way to view things...

The "perfect gentleman" you describe is not actually quite as extraordinary as some might think. I've met several and it's wonderful to know a person who treats a woman like a flower, but also has intelligence and a good control of his own life and goals.

Spongy, no need to be rude. My opinions count as much as anybody else's. Feel free to follow your own advice and ignore them, if they don't please you.

I would probably say most people on this forum have had more experience in dating and intimacy than I have, and I do my best to only share my observations rather than assert facts with no foundation. I agree that it has become very black and white, often in the face of much frustration at dating, and I do like to objectively analyze that frustration and how to deal with it.

The perfect gentleman is certainly not extraordinary, I agree with pretty much all you have said. I believe in being able to cultivate positive elements in your character and make them intrinsically part of you, and I try to encourage that. You are very fortunate to have met so many gentleman, most women I know don't meet any!

As for niceness....well, you may be one of few who think that way about being nice. Where I live, being nice is seen as being weak, but that is probably because so many weak and insecure people rely on being nice and supplicating to gain approval. It is a form of passive aggression that is becoming more prevalent these days from what I have been seeing.

Again, I will reiterate that your experiences will probably greatly differ from many here, especially given that you probably have had more experience with dating. Maybe you have advice of your own to share with some of us??

Why, thank you...

I don't think I'm "one of the few" women who feel that way about niceness... Women tend to seek somebody reliable, appreciative and respectful as their partner. Women are happy to share with their girlfriends stories about their beloved ones having showed some acts of appreciation and love such as having made a candle dinner or treated them in any other loving way. It's far from being a signal of weakness. Weakness would be to be too clingy, indifferent in their opinions or not to have any personal goals in life. It's a good trait to have the correct combination of gentleness and firmness in a man.

No one is saying that an intimate sign of affection or romance is a sign of weakness, that's perfectly appropriate and acceptable in a relationship. "Bad boy" doesn't necessarily mean someone who has a thug image, it's more to do with persistence and belief in yourself and being forward and genuine with your intentions. A bad boy gets rejected, learns from his mistakes, takes it on the chin and persists, a nice guy takes the rejection to the heart and becomes passive aggressive and bitter towards women, generalizing in a negative light, simply because the feelings aren't reciprocated.

There is a huge difference between being a nice guy with an ulterior motive and genuinely being naive. I feel many younger aspie guys fall into the naive category in which they aren't aware of dating rules or social cues and tend to end up in unhealthy relationships. Many naive aspie guys have to go through broken relationships and being used and exploited before realizing this. The article is simply encouraging them to have more confidence in themselves without seeking approval from the opposite sex or compromising who they are to please someone else.

I tend to agree. I also may be wrong with my comment about niceness, but in my opinion it perhaps depends on the man really. I don't really think niceness is the issue, it is the other character traits which support that niceness. I don't find anything weak about being romantic either. I feel you have summed it up perfectly with regards to weakness. It is when those particular behaviours are accompanied by niceness, then the argument then becomes about being nice as an attempt, whether conscious or unconscious, to hide their character flaws and insecurites. It is sad that this discussion has to keep popping up, and even though I express a lot of interest in the Alpha/Beta concept, I don't think that it is a concrete theory, and should be used loosely.

I think this is an important distinction, and one I've been mulling over for some time.

A nice guy tries to please everyone because he's trying to be...well, nice. Doesn't like people to hate him...perhaps dislikes conflict. Because of the need to please, he lets people walk over him. In a sense, he has little to no boundaries.

To be a good guy, by contrast, means you have a stance or a viewpoint...namely: good. If someone challenges that stance, the good person doesn't hesitate to fight back or stand up for themselves because they have conviction. The good guy doesn't care if he angers someone per se if they are in conflict with his conviction. The good guy has boundaries, and defends them. This means if a woman (or anyone) is treating him poorly, he calls her on it.

In a brutal way of course

Anyway, I think both you and Lilya have contribute greatly to this thread in terms of insight, and I think you both are right. It all depends on the insight one has, its 2 different angle to the same picture.

The "nice" guy concept is just another way to get a woman, I see this as another way of being a prick as well but just disguising it.

For me, I'm always nice in general and I think I do go out of my way to help other people (as an example, I was on the train going to wards my college, I had my own two seats for me and my bag and when a woman came on with the child, I saw no one trying to help her and she was stuck standing up trying to control her son from running off so I stood up and offered her my seats since she needs them more then I do) at the time I don't take it as being nice or anything like that but its my reaction and then like 5 - 10 minutes later do I realise that I was being really helpful/nice.

Even though I am nice, I will not tolerate any BS coming my way and will not be stepped on by anyone, even if it means losing my place at college for standing up for myself.

At the end of the day, its all about balance and while I can be a "gentleman" I can also be the biggest bastard you have ever met.

Totally agreed, AsteroidNap.

(And also, by you quoting my post, I just noticed that I left the word "consider" out of my first sentence. Whoops. )

I think MountZion hit it on the head too, even though there are a lot of women like Lilya out there who genuinely appreciate niceness and kindness, there are many people, of EITHER gender, who see niceness and/or kindness as negative traits, even if the person may not be a pushover.

But it just depends.

I think the reason why they do is unconscious, and it's not the niceness/kindness they are responding to - it is the other behavioral traits that accompany their niceness.

I am a self-proclaimed bad boy, a heartless jerk. What does that make me?

HOT!

i understand your sentiments as i am still working on things about myself.

but don't forget i fell in love with you for the way you are now, not the way you could potentially be in future. what i mean is that you are quite awesome in the present tense, and i do not see you as a work in progress. i'm not suggesting "never change" because people will cahnge whether they try to or not - and often for good reasons. i would just never want you to think you are lesser for being the way you are this minute.

whatever you would characterise yourself as - nice guy or whatever (definitely NOT "nice guy"), i am attracted to you and want to be with you. so... it was ultimately effective.


sorry to derail.

Wait what? Your his girlfriend? This is so confusing :S

With all due respect, this thread is utter codswallop. There's nothing wrong with being a nice man. Back in the day, you'd be called loyal and dependable. Today, histrionic women call you clingy. We can't win.