nature of attraction

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None of the girs I went to middle school with are still single, nor are any of the girls I went to high school with.



Most likely they mean overweight as in 40 lbs or more worth of excess fat.



As previosly stated: roughly 40 lbs over the ideal weight.



First of all, oral sex is completely natural. Secondly, girls are hit on at bars and dating sites all the time.


If there were true, overweight women wouldn't be avoided by men in favor of being alone- that's a reproductive DEAD END.[/quote]

No it's not. This is a safety mechanism that prevents people from mixing their genes with unfit specimens, in turn preventing them from wasting resources.



Everyone knows someone who's with someone he secretly doesn't like.




Depends on ehat age group. Your average 20-something girl who's a 5 or better is usually not fat enough to lose fertility.

That's the whole point, it changes over time i.e. it is culturally defined.

Not really.

Those are both individuals from the same society.

Anyway ... this is kind of irrelevant. To get back to how this started, the point is, you can't be choosy and then complain when the other gender does the same thing. That goes for both genders. If you're a woman who overlooks men who are too skinny or not very handsome or whatever, you can't complain when you're passed up by guys who do meet those standards because you're overweight. If you're a guy who overlooks women who are overweight or have certain facial features or whatever, you can't complain that women are being too picky about some of your qualities.

Last edited by edgewaters on 19 Apr 2012, 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

50 years separate the pictures. Why won't anyone counter the argument on how attractive women have higher estrogen levels and are more fertile than unattractive ones?

Funny, then, that they don't SAY "40 lbs" they say OVERWEIGHT, full stop.


What does oral sex being "natural" or not have to do with it?
Women being "hit on" means they have "bargaining power" over sex?
Here's women's "bargaining power" on the modern scene:
have sex or be alone.


And by "unfit specimens", we mean, of course, healthy, reproductively-viable women who take up more space than currently considered appropriate, being rejected in favor of...masturbation? Yeah. THAT sure makes sense, evolutionarily.


Fixed.



Oh wow, we've devolved into number "rankings". Well, it did take two pages, so I guess it could be worse...

A woman who'd "rank" well in such a system would likely not be overweight, you're right, because such systems reduce human beings to pre-conceived Western beauty standards, those standards being fat-phobic at the moment.
My question was about how the AVERAGE woman compares aesthetically to what men idealize,
and how this affects her prospects and potentially being rejected. Not "5 or better".

Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 19 Apr 2012, 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

50 years? Go further and take a look at Neolithic standards. If it's biological there should be no change, but we see massive change.

I think this whole line of argument is largely irrelevant. There are some biological factors at work, and some social factors at work. Does it matter which is which? Not really. The point is, there are selection criteria. But we're not animals to be governed totally by instinct, nor drones programmed by society - we can make choices, and therefore, we are responsible for the choices we make.

One cannot complain about the other gender exercising their selection criteria, while exercising similar criteria oneself. It's hypocritical.

Probably because not everyone does or wants to reduce dating to pre-conceived evolutionary psychology ideals.

Not everyone even cares about looks when it comes to dating, and not all of those who do follow the same standards you're proclaiming as sacrosanct.

People are ignoring that argument about fertility because the evolutionary impetus behind a preference doesn't make much difference if we're talking about dating inequalities, and the modern human who doesn't have to have every single preference fulfilled in a mate.

Oral sex being natural means that It's something that's a natural part of a relationship; it's expected.

Women like sex as much as men do and this is also an extremely natural part of a relationship.



No, "unfit" means less feminine and fertile; less stimulating to our Darwinian mindsets.


Fixed.[/quote]

Not really. When a woman is hit on by someone she doesn't like, there are always plenty of other men hitting on her as well. She can always take the next one in stead.




The average 20 year old is a five. If she exercises, she's close to her ideal body fat levels, which is 23,1%.

Again, this is because food was scarce. If the cave men had as much easily available food as we have, they'd have a much slimmer ideal woman.



I never claimed that mature women liked jerks; that would be a step backwards in evolution. On the other hand, complaining that men won't date unattractive women makes no sense. Our instincts have remained unchanged for a 150,000 years. Not being interested in unattractive women therefore makes perfectly good sense.

Ah, so women only have as much "bargaining power" over sex insofar as their sexual willingness is in jive with the era they live in. Nice.

Both men and women can be non-sexual beings, and also to be not as sexually-active, or sexually into popular activities.


So
1. Women who starve themselves to fit a beauty ideal.
2. Women who are absolutely morbidly obese....some of them.

You really think single men have no more exact requirements than that???



LOL so we're not only making up supposedly-objective ranking systems of female attractiveness, we're hypothetizing about what the "average" of an age demographic would be ranked within it, and also about her metabolic reality, and what her "ideal" body fat levels are.

Thrown in some goblins and a faerie or two, while we're making things up.

Women having the passive role gives her the veto power, which in turn gives her the most bargaining power. Likewise, an employer holds more bargaining power than an employee.



True, but a platonic relationship means that both parts have to be asexual. Furthermore, the sex part is the natural part; monogamous relationships are a rather new invention.



Quit changing the subject. The ideal bodyfat level is called sombecause it's the most healthy level. The most important part of a relationship, is that you're attracted to te other part.

A body fat level between 20 and 23 is obtainable just by cutting sugar from your diet and taking the stairs instead of the elevator. A morbidly obese women is usually obese because she eats more than she burns.




People with Aspergers aren't normally found in night clubs or at dating sites.




Please stop with the straw man arguments. You're beating a dead horse.

http://www.bmi-calculator.net/body-fat- ... -chart.php
http://www.ideal-weight-charts.com/idea ... ntage.html

If modern beaty standards represent fertility and femininity, they're better left unchanged. Instincts will always win over what some people consider unfair.

considered physically attractive by who?

Ah, so by "bargaining power:, you mean women have the power to reject men IF approached.
....right.

Or a person could be abstaining from sex for other reasons. Or just not get turned on by _______ (fill in the blank with X, Y, or Z sex act you'd like to call "natural"). The point is, when you say women have sexual "bargaining power" you mean she has power to reject the advances of any one man, should he choose to approach her, and will be obligated to have sex with someone she doesn't reject, likely performing specific acts, or else be rejected herself. Did I get that right?

Monogamy IS sex- between two exclusive partners, and has existed for quite some time as a reproductive strategy for both men and women, actually.


Cool story, bro. I'm still waiting on whether you think most men are attracted to what most women actually look like, at least in America,
and how you're going to continue pulling an "evolution" argument when men opt to not reproduce at all rather than date a fat woman.

Well duh! The point is you're obsessed with PHYSICAL attraction, and a tiny SUBSET of physical attraction, as determined by CURRENT STANDARDS.

Who KNEW it could be so easy?!
All the people on diets for years and years and decades and lifetimes have it all wrong!
Who knew by "cutting sugar and taking the stairs" we could all be slim?!
Yeah. You're a joke.
The people who want seriously to lose weight haven't consumed refined sugars in years, and many have exercise regimens that could put Olympic athletes to shame. I know this conversation is because of certain prejudices on your part, but I'm going to draw the line at the implication that fat people are lazy and STUPID. They're people unfortunate enough to possess a physiology that results in an unpopular aesthetic. I ate little to nothing daily and worked out zealously and stayed obese for years. Save the sci-fi for someone who's always been thin and doesn't know the reality.

Uh-huh. You seem to be forgetting the back part of that equation. Some people burn so very little it is next to impossible not to be overweight. I gain at much more than 200 calories a day, personally.


Where's the link to this "scale" we're ranking women on? xD
Where's the site saying a woman who exercises will have X body fat percentage?

People don't "instinctively" consider someone unworthy of their love or companionship unless they're a certain size or smaller/larger.
They're taught to.
Aside from this, the argument isn't about what's "fair"- it's about some people whining about dating not being fair whilst not being "fair" themselves.

the top female had a BMI at least 3 points higher than the second female.

modern beauty standards are irrelevant to who actually dates and marries. men and women who are overweight and obese are considered attractive by many people of the opposite sex. it's not that their partners don't care... their partners DO care and still find them attractive. i think you are having issues with understanding that not everyone finds the same things attractive that you do.

the "average" female in the United States is overweight. it's the new norm there and it is slowly happening in Europe as well. i suppose you will just have to deal with it.

women don't really hold a passive role in dating. i think that active participation in the dating world will cause your assumptions about "bargaining power" to be quickly dispensed with. it isn't at all like you are characterising.

Last edited by hyperlexian on 19 Apr 2012, 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.