nice guys?

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I was talking about where there is a clear pattern where someone has not taken care of themselves, to their own detriment, and out of a sense of obligation as opposed to because they want to. Especially if they perform the obligation with an expectation that they will get what they want in return when in reality no such thing has been agreed upon, and then proceed to blame the other person when they to not get what they feel they are entitled to.

I think the clear pattern part is subjective based on the view of the observer. Extreme cases are easy to identify, but not others. It requires that the observer accurately guess the motivations.

yes females do not say this.
it's the ego thing :p
However, they won't admit that they actually are unconsciously doing that.
You just need to play it a little bit and it's fine

Someone already brought up the term gentleman before I did. I am pleased about that. Generally speaking there are differences between the nice guys and gentlemen.
Nice guys are: Insecure, think being nice will get them somewhere, expect something from others, and their insecurities allow people to walk all over them. Nice guys think that paying 100% on dates will lead them to something more and women see right through this. In other words, nice guys not only have a lack of respect for women, they have entitlement issues. This usually never works out in their favour. If the nice guy didn't try so hard to impress, he would be more confident and more respectful.
Gentleman are: Genuinely nice more often than not, does what comes naturally for them, are usually well-mannered, holds the door open for the ladies, stays standing at the dinner table until the ladies are seated and usually has more respect for women. There is no guarantee that this will get them somewhere with the ladies either, but they at least show some class and respect.

Feel free to use whatever terms you like, but those categories are fairly arbitrary and subjective. Personally, I dislike the term "gentleman" because to me it feels sexist and connotes a specific code of behavior that people expect of a "good" man-- usually dominant, protective behaviors. Things like the etiquette you mention of holding doors and "ladies first." I don't mind those things as sweet gestures from someone who is nice in other ways, but I do think the way they are ingrained into our culture is sexist, and I don't think that following that etiquette means someone is more likely to be genuine-- if anything I would think this would be an easy act to put on.

Not all women want or need to be put on a pedestal, and I don't think doing so should be a requirement for a man to be considered decent. For those that do, that's fine. Personally I would prefer a man to be kind, respectful, but principled in dealing with all people regardless of gender, and for him to treat me as an equal. To me, the issue isn't the term "nice" vs. another arbitrary term, it's whether the niceness/decentness/gentlemanliness is genuine and deep-seated vs. a thin veneer over a core of jerkiness, call it what you will.

I love this line so much I may well add it to my OKCupid profile! Seriously - it's perfect! You win 1000 Awesome Points (redeemable for one Awesome Cookie.)

Yes, they are, and they can mean different things to different people.



Elitist too, by some understandings of the term. Not, however, by every understanding.

My dad was physically abusive with his own mom, and later, with mine. His mom met a really nice fellow, who became his stepdad and my grandfather, who didn't tolerate his behaviour towards his mom. We went overseas to visit once, and he took me to the top of a little mountain nearby called the Wrekin, which has a rather dramatic view. The kind of place that burns into the memory of a 5 year old. He gave me a speech about being a gentleman, and explained that not many people understood what the word really meant and that the word meant "just what it sounds like" (I can recall parts of the talk with perfect clarity), not any other thing. It may well have saved me from becoming a different sort of person than I am. So ... I find the term useful, and I would do the same as he did in his position, without hesitation.



Yes, I think it is much the same as the term "nice" in that respect. It's come to be understood as simply a program of etiquette, that is supposed to get you what you want ... a ritualistic sort of behaviour, not an internal quality, but merely external/superficial behaviour.

I guess I don't venture into this forum enough. I see some nice guys showed up though!

No where else but L&D does the word "nice" have such a negative meaning with it

Honestly, when most people who call someone a "nice guy" their generally referring to genuinely nice man.

They usualy are too busy being genuinely nice to realize that a woman is hitting on them.

i feel like this discussion is a bit skewed (maybe it's because "nice guy" has become such a popular phrase around these parts?). so i am going to degenderfy (ungender? neuter?) my response to include both females and males.

it is not my goal to be "nice", because in my opinion it is bland and boring and doesn't really SAY anything about a person. it's like a coating of plaster intended to cover up one's self and to appear as neutral and bland as possible. i'd rather be interesting, or decent, or curious, or even annoying or lively or memorable or controversial. these things could reflect my inner self. but... what does it say about a person if niceness is a reflection of their inner self? eggshell walls are nice. unbruised apples are nice. is that really the best that people think that they have to offer? not even kind or decent, but NICE?

on a relationship level, i'm not saying i like a bad boy or a mean boy (or girl). that's not really the only other choice!! ! some great traits would be interesting, fascinating, fun, introspective, intelligent, assertive, kind, decent, supportive, etc. these things transcend nice, and so i tend to be suspicious of anyone who tried to use niceness as a selling point.

Last edited by hyperlexian on 15 Jul 2012, 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Considering the connotation of "nice guy", should anyone be offended by this?

I tend to be a rather friendly affectionate male however because of this others see it as a weakness,call me a door mat, a pushover, and walk all over me.

Sadly true... there are plenty of aggressive people out there who believe in taking from others to get what they want, rather than creating or earning it. These people (men & women alike) see the gentle people who don't like to fight as easy prey...

I've only recently begun fighting back from these near-psycho/sociopaths with mixed results. There have been some who, when they pushed, I resisted... then they began fighting dirty! For these same people, "losing" (even an argument) is the worst thing in the world and will fight nearly to the death to get what they want and/or get the other person to back down and capitulate.

I can think of a quite a few examples from the jobs I've had over the years. I hate to say it (and I know it'll anger a few particular people) but *in my case*, 90% of those aggressors/abusers were female.

I haven't developed a working strategy for successfully defending from a relentless, heartless badger of a human... the only thing they want is to "win". It galls me to sometimes back down just to stop one from attacking everyone else in addition to myself... or to "keep the peace". Pity it's just like the bullying thing... people are usually too afraid to take down a bully for fear they will become the next target.

I agree with hyperlexian, however I think this "nice guy" term needs to be explained alittle bit more

Imagine any guy who has a hard time trying to impress a girl he really likes or strikes out alot when he is asking a girl out. He eventually gets bummed out and confides in a close friend(sometimes a girl sometimes a guy). Now this close friend to cheer him up tell him hes a "nice guy" and that he will find a girl like him for who he is....or whatever.....

The point is after awhile he hears the term "nice guy" so much that he begins to think that its the reason he has bad luck with women. And what is the oppsite of a nice person easy a jerk and thus the Nice guy vs. Jerk silly argument is born. Now it may differ from person to person but this is usualy how it happens.

Now sometimes the guy who experinces this focus so much on this Title of "nice guy" that he becomes bitter towards women, thus only hurting himself more.

Most "nice guys" are or were genuinely nice people and but that is never why they had or have problems with women.
On average the problem usualy is lack of confidence or appearing to have a lack of confidence.

I know the feeling well, that's why it's important to stand up for yourself and take care of yourself, even if you're still learning how to do that socially speaking.
It doesn't always stop them (although it does sometimes) but it usually makes them think twice.

I already know I'm far from the typical example, but when I'm trying to impress a chick, the first order of business for me is brandishing a bit of my intelligence and wit, not trying to look like I'm out to please everyone.