Where am I Going Wrong?

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Okay, here's some examples of pics that I feel are pretty decent. As you can see, IMO, one doesn't have to have a "full-out" smile----NOR, do they have to be looking straight at the camera:













THESE, IMO, are NOT good!! (below)





I looked, FOREVER, for that thread I was telling you about, where we voted, but I couldn't find it.....

best advices so far imo

I get the sense that you simply do not come across as being very confident.

A lack of confidence can really act like a kind of Spell of Invisibility that affects female-vision. I think you're on the right track by asking questions, but ultimately, you need more social-experience. The saying goes that there's no substitute for experience & gaining more experience will get you more confidence. I speak as a « Fellow-Aspie » who never even bothered to hug any girls until the age of 24 (or maybe I was 26), did not lose virginity until the age of 27, and still did not understand social-interactions very much even into my 30s, but it wasn't until the 30s that I finally understood that some of us are just late-bloomers, and centuries later here we are.

Try getting involved in more activities where you get more social-exposure, out of all of the activities that you enjoy of course, particularly if it is an activity where there is any good possibility of a higher-than-average female-population than that of mostly male-dominated activities (like your results probably won't be that good interacting with girls on a testosterone-driven PvP-oriented game as opposed to say a more girlish MMORPG).

Take classes if you have the money for either dance-lessons or if you go to an academic-school take a course that is likely to have more female-population & just keep on repeating this until a girl comes along who is willing to sit next to you. I also remember (even if inadvertently) getting someone who probably qualifies as Aspie into a relationship back in the day but I haven't really bothered playing much match-maker since I've busied myself since then for too much social-interaction (got quite a few projects I've been needing to work on but too much to get everything done in a day and probably even too much to finish within only a year or two). The other thing that I have learned over the years is that relationships seem to be rather for « karmic » reasons. Fix as many « faults » within yourself that you can find & eventually you'll have many more opportunities for good-relationships.

Another thing to consider is that you might be getting signals from girls and not be aware of it. I'm really bad at this, and wouldn't know that women were attracted to me until they threw themselves at me. Consequently, I'm not going to try to give advice on what to look for, but maybe others on this thread can help.

I started a thread on smiling body language in the general forums.

The site I linked to has a lot of explanation on smiling, as well as pictures of examples of types of smiles. Maybe it will help.

Addition on the photo: if you have a new photo taken, consider these environments:

- spring-season forest or a park, lots of light, slightly blurry background. Like someone just took a snapshot of you while you were walking in the park with them. A cloudy day is better than bright sunlight, because you don't have to close your eyes to the sun or have the sun behind you and have a completely dark face.
- arrange a setup in a meeting room, where you can stand at a desk, like you were presenting something. Look over the camera into the audience (which is not there, but never mind). Wear a suit or at least a blouse. Mind the collar
- Don't wear distracting, chaotic clothes, or your easter bunny tie, no matter how cute it is.
- don't make a selfie with your arm stretched out. The camera is then way too close to your face, it'll look blown up like you would see your reflection in christmas baubles. Instead, place the camera a bit off, zoom in a tiny bit, and use a timer.
- Photograph yourself rather a bit from above, than from below.
- Practice smiles in front of the mirror.
- Have photos where you are among people, or in a public area. It helps giving other people the idea that you're not 24/7 lonely in a room by yourself, whether that's the truth or not.
- Since you're a dog lover, borrow your aunt's cute dog and take a photo of you and the dog. Kneel next to the dog so you're at eye level or cuddle it if it's a small dog. It shows your affection. Don't make it an awkward pic where the dog licks your face or something

In my opinion it's not bad to put some work into the photos. Those are your only visual representation, and they're not even accurate. When someone meets you on a date, they will see you from all different angles, see you smile, laugh, talk, and look away. The photos will from that moment on only be a rather frozen impression.

But, apart from the photos. I agree with the people who say that as an artist, you should not primarily date online. You miss out on a lot in that way. Go to artsy things, go have lunch at a local art school or at a bar in a neighbourhood known for artists and students. Bring a notebook and draw to literally draw attention of people.
Go to gallery openings, don't get drunk, just feel at ease (hard at first) and look through the room focusing at the distance, the opposite walls. Notice the people who are there. Do some research on the artist and ask one simple question, if possible, to show your connection.
Study in a library and go for coffee during your visit. Observe people (not in a creepy way).
Help people (especially girls) by holding the door for them, or throw in a joke when you're at a counter together to make contact.

Likeminded artists will accept you far more easily than this big pool of online dating girls from who you don't even know what their interest is. Good luck!

Because women are hypergamous and picky, no matter how they deny it here.

Nerdygirl is one of the most honest women here who doesn't sugar-coat, and her opinion reflects the majority of the typical women.

Refer to this thread to start understanding that attraction is not really that individualistic:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=285005

and especially to Janissa's theory in this post:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=285005&start=105

I personally think her theory reflects a lot of truth.

@kraftiekortie: Many credits, too many. I could go back, but I lack the money and the desire. Haha... I do wring my hands and people have said I have a deep ret*d laugh.

@GiantHockeyFan: Yeah the picture sucks, I get it. Getting a candid photo is really hard. I am behind a computer screen 16 hours a day, then I sleep. I have only 2 friends, and they are my coworkers who do the same thing. Its hard to say "hey lets all go outside and take a photo of me for my dating profile!" They would all laugh and rightfully so.

I am notoriously hard on myself, and I believe its a good thing. Its how you stay realistic and fix flaws. The girls I messaged arent the ones with the problem, its me. I would have gotten a response if that werent true. Saying otherwise would be arrogant.

@Campin_Cat: Thank you for taking the time to point out those photos, I appreciate it. I was afraid this would happen when I asked, but all those guys are more attractive than me, and I just don't have a nice smile like any of those--in other words I can never be those guys! However, I do see what you mean by angles.

These will still be a good reference for my future photos.

@Ban-Dodger: Sounds like you were running circles around me at 27. My confidence could be better, no doubt about that. There is something else though, anger. To be perfectly honest, I hate dating, with a passion. Everything about it. It's one big-ass game, and if you don't follow every rule, you lose. It makes me angry that I have to play this game to get a girl, so that puts me at a disadvantage. Fixing a lack of confidence is hard, but that's something I can see myself doing. Fixing the anger... that's going to be near impossible.

I wish I had more opportunities for social exposure, but I don't fit in anywhere. So, I tag along with my 2 friends to their church activities. Their church, of which I am not a member but I respect, greatly encourages men and women to go on dates. These girls are pretty low maintenance, sweet, and want relationships... just not with me. But fat guys with comb-overs and glasses are fine! When they ignore me, I don't get sad, I get angry... fiercely so. I never take my anger out on others, but as you can imagine it probably doesn't help make me approachable.

This I want to fix, don't know how.

@SamTheWizer: This is definitely true. I know I need major help with this. Its worse for me, because, similar to what I said above, if I do pickup on the signals, I always interpret them in the worst possible way. Just today, I went to pickup a pizza (which was delicious) from the same place I always do. This is a somewhat frequent thing, again, delicious, and the same girl usually works the register. She gives me weird looks. Today however was a whole new low (or was it?). As I walked in she and her coworker (also a girl) were looking at me with smiles. They had clearly watched me approach from outside and were talking about me. When I looked at the usual girl she immediately looked down as if to hide her laughter, then she walked away and the other coworker helped me. She knew my name since I go there often. She seemed a little extra friendly, but I was mad at this point and gave stoic one word answers and looked down. I paid and she said "have a nice day" really fast and left before I could respond, even though I wasnt going to anyway.

They were clearly laughing at me since I go there so often and have poor social skills. Or were they? Did I just so badly misinterpret everything and make myself angry, causing the girls to flee? I don't know the answer and its beyond frustrating.

@nerdygirl: Smiling and body language are things I definitely don't understand. My story above is just one of many examples. If I can find your thread, I will read it for sure. I need a lot of help with this.

@The_Face_of_Boo: I read your posts and Janissy's. So, you're saying girls where I live don't find me attractive? I used to live in Southern California, one of the most culturally diverse places in the US... and my luck was exactly the same. I now live in a very different state with a different culture, one that actually fits mine pretty well. Same deal.

I tried Tinder as well, not a single girl matched me. AND that was just purely based on a photo, that horrid photo a few posts back. Maybe the photo really is terrible.

I don't discount your findings, the amount of evidence clearly shows there is something about where one lives and what girls are attracted to. But I feel like girls in my area would find me attractive since our demographics are similar.

Facial expressions and body language can be learned. It took me a lot of trial and error, and I'm sure there is a lot that I'm still missing. It's also a two way street, and I'm still not very aware of my own facial expressions. It's possible (but just conjecture) that the girls were giggling because one of them finds you attractive, possibly the one that stayed at the register. She might have been short with you because you weren't reciprocating her signals and thought you weren't interested. Unfortunately, I'm not very good at the next part. Establishing new friendships/relationships is a challenge for me. If you go in there often and see these girls there, maybe try to initiate conversation. I think that if they continue to have short answers, it means they're probably not interested and its probably a waste of your energy. If they give more detailed responses then they might be interested. Another thing you should be aware of is that relationships require maintenance, and you'll face new challenges with each date, and with each phase of the relationship. If you're seeing a therapist, it's something you should probably discuss with them. If you're not seeing a therapist, it's something you might want to consider.

Your pic is NOT terrible, but it's average, and average online with all these numbers of guys is bad. Remember, active guys always outnumber active girls on these sites - and don't believe what their owners claim, they are lying to teeth and use inactive and fake profiles to balance counts and they never show real activity per gender.

What is your ethnicity? You have a pale skin but your hair is somehow too dark, Italian? Greek? You have a big nose, you look somehow Mediterranean.

I am Mediterranean Levantine Arab, In my Tinder regional experiments, I got ZEROs out of 100 in White-dominated areas, a lot of matches in Asian, African (black majority), and north african countries (Arab-Berbers and Berbers), even in Hispanic countries I got very good numbers especially in Mexico. In mixed areas like Houstan I got only matched mostly with Africans, Asians, Arabs and Persians.

I see on wiki that there are lot of Hispanic in S.California but are they as active on Tinder? is this app or even online dating popular among their community?

I thought you loved the outdoors...how do you fit it in (or dating even), if your entire life is computers and sleep? I can all but guarantee that there is at least one nice state park or something in your area. If you really do enjoy the outdoors, start spending 15 hours a day on the computer and the other hour there. If you don't think anyone would go with you, take a selfie or use a camera with a timer...I hate selfies but it would probably be much better than an indoors webcam photo. And you don't have to tell them you're trying to take dating site pictures...I got most of my pictures I use on a hiking trip to the mountains and various scenic landmarks near me. I didn't tell the person I was with what I'd use the pictures for, I just asked if they'd take pictures of me in front of really scenic areas.

It's actually not THAT bad but you need a more zoomed out shot. I have heard plenty of tales of guys who have downright creepy pictures so I don't think it's as bad as you say. Still, I would take the advice given by others. You are starting to sound like "K" in that you seem to have lots of excuses and get defensive quickly. I have ZERO close friends and I still managed to get it done: even a stranger would probably do it for you. If your friends are going to laugh at such a reasonable request they don't sound much like friends to me.


No, being hard on yourself is NOT a good thing, especially on a dating site!

No, you are wrong and you need to take these girls off a pedestal. Many are messed up, some are looking for an ego boost and have no intention of replying to anyone, some are still licking their wounds and a few are too shy to write back. It's not arrogant of me to say this: it took me a very long time to fully realize it.

I think you are attractive. Nothing wrong with your overall looks at all! Just the pic.

Yes, one CAN break the "dating rules" and still be successful. I am one...and I've been married for 18 years now. You need to find someone who doesn't follow the rules. As I've said, and others have concurred, try to find artsy girls. They will understand you the most and will be more likely to also break the rules.

Link to smiling thread: viewtopic.php?t=290284

And, I was afraid you'd think that!! I specifically chose THOSE guys because I felt they were of EQUAL attractiveness, to you----especially #5; I thought he looked almost exactly like you!!

As for the girls in the pizza shop, I feel just the opposite of another poster..... I believe the one who LEFT, is the one who might like you. I feel she may have left because she IS attracted to you, and shy about it. You said she looked-down, and seemed to be hiding her laughter, and she may, very well, HAVE been doing that----but, NOT for the reason, you assume. I'm thinking her looking-down, was a SHY thing to do. Don't YOU look-down, in shyness?

I'm thinking that maybe you intimidate people----through NO FAULT, of your own!! (I'm thinking that's why the one girl, at the pizza place, gives you what you have interpreted, as "weird" looks, before.) For one, your height ALONE can be intimidating to some people. I had / have the same problem (I'm 5'11"); and, for a GIRL, that's sort-of WORSE, cuz girls are suppose to be little and cute, and I'm too big to be cute ("big", as in tall; I'm not big, "around").

You also said that, in person, people have told you, you are good-looking----that, with being tall, is a double whammy!! Again, I know from personal experience, as people always thought I was good-looking, back-in-the-day----I had even been called beautiful (and, not from people who were just trying to schmooze me)----THAT makes it WORSE!!

I can remember people saying to me: "The boys must be LINED-UP, for YOU!!", and they WEREN'T!! Interestingly, the kind of guys that hit on me, were UGLY----either physically, or personality-wise. For some reason, those types of guys, weren't intimidated by me, and always thought they were casanovas, or something----that they were God's gift to women----which brings me, to my next comment.....

You spoke-of the fat, comb-over guys at your friends' church, being the ones who get girls..... I REALLY think it's because girls (or, ANYONE) are not intimidated, by them----that "ugly", is more "approachable".

Like I said, it's absolutely NO FAULT, of your own (the handsome / tall part); and, I'm thinking it's going to be more difficult for you, because it's some unwritten rule, that guys have to be the ones to ask a girl, out.

I suggest, the next time you go in that pizza place..... Like, on the way from the parking-lot, just keep repeating, to yourself: "I'm gonna be COOL----I'm gonna be friendly----I'm gonna be confident....." I know that's difficult----but, I'VE done it, and it DOES help. Don't you have to act like an NT, to get-along with people? It's the same thing!! It's not a lie, if you act confident----because, aren't you confident in your artist skills? So, maybe, try THAT.....

I do appreciate this, Boo. It's quite a compliment to me to be called honest.

I do base my comments on what I see as a typical female reaction or interpretation, which is based on patterns I've noticed in my interactions with other women. I don't necessarily hold those opinions myself. I will say what I believe *most* women might notice about something, though I do not consider myself a typical woman.

Yeah, pretty much, that's why we get conflicted with a lot of WP girls here....because well.....they don't interact much with other women.
So if someone points to a typical woman behavior, they go "THIS IS NOT TRUE....I AM NOT like that you sexist ***hole".

Like I recall this debate with a banned lady here, who claimed that most women prefer the guy to do verbal asking before kissing in dates, I pointed to polls and threads from NT dating sites showing the decisive and crushing victory for the those who prefer the typical spontaneous kiss (about 90% of women) - in fact, many of those 90% even find the verbal asking as a big turn off - she really really really had very very little touch with reality and other women in her own community; and a lot of WP women are like this.
A lot of WP women don't befriend other women, or befriend mostly guys, or have a very small group of like-minded - but generally they don't interact with other women much; their perspective about other women, especially the heterosexuals of them and how they think that most women think is....skewed.