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For the millionth time: Social skills can't be learned

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Yigeren
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25 Jan 2016, 4:36 pm

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We don't lack cognitive empathy, it's our emotional empathy that doesn't work as well. We use cognitive empathy to compensate.


That's entirely incorrect. EDIT: Here's a link:

https://www.mpib-berlin.mpg.de/en/research/concluded-areas/mprg-neurocognition-of-decision-making/decision-making-in-social-contexts/individuals-with-asperger



wilburforce
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25 Jan 2016, 4:49 pm

Yigeren wrote:
Quote:
We don't lack cognitive empathy, it's our emotional empathy that doesn't work as well. We use cognitive empathy to compensate.


That's entirely incorrect. EDIT: Here's a link:

https://www.mpib-berlin.mpg.de/en/research/concluded-areas/mprg-neurocognition-of-decision-making/decision-making-in-social-contexts/individuals-with-asperger


I asked you to leave me alone. Please respect that.



Yigeren
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25 Jan 2016, 4:53 pm

It's really none of your business to tell me what I can post on any thread, especially not one that I've already posted on.

I'm correcting the misinformation that you have posted, so that others are not confused or misled.

Stop telling me what to do, and mind your own business. You do not have the authority to go around setting your own rules here.



wilburforce
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25 Jan 2016, 4:55 pm

Yigeren wrote:
It's really none of your business to tell me what I can post on any thread, especially not one that I've already posted on.

I'm correcting the misinformation that you have posted, so that others are not confused or misled.

Stop telling me what to do, and mind your own business. You do not have the authority to go around setting your own rules here.


Just so you know, I won't read any comments from you on my comments. Please leave me alone.



AR15000
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25 Jan 2016, 4:56 pm

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I'm tired of guys and girls on this thread who urge Asperger guys to improve social skills since this is an impossible feat.

I've been empathizing looks over social skills in the dating scene since that's the only real thing I am able offer to women at this point (besides just being polite and kind).

Before any of you shout "shallow" at me, let me tell you what is considered impossible to improve on: social skills.

Personality just means being nice so please don't get that confused. You can have a good personality and lack social skills but girls still won't like you.

The brain of an Aspergian is wired in a way where NT social rules and logic simply can't be mastered. NTs can change the rules at unexpected times for purposes of fun and occasionally mind games.

You can't follow a script communicate around NTs, because non verbal cues dictate when the tone of a conversation and change its direction and leave you as the awkward one.

I've tried learning social skills, it's like teaching calculus to someone with dyscalculia. The logic is just too hard to decipher. If I ask too many questions, I'm seen as an FBI agent, if I ask too little, I'm seen as self-absorbed.

In the next 10 years, almost all Americans will be overweight/obese, so staying at a fit weight will be considered an accomplishment in the dating scene. I'll say again: fitness is changeable, social skills are not. Once shy = always shy.

Now you know this quote from a WP member is BS: "still others, such as myself, could hardly care less about how he looks so long as he can debate Socrates."*

* If you have an ASD, you've got to be kidding me!!




A-MEN mah Brotha!



Social skills, like all other skills, are ultimately based on Innate Ability. And the fundamental theorem of social interaction is the harder you try, the dumber you look. Social skills are like language skills in that most people learn to speak and understand spoken language just being hearing and imitating. They don't need to consciously be taught it the way they're taught written language.

Autism is indeed a disability. Which means that we autists cannot do all the things that NTs are able to do and we will always struggle with stuff that are second nature to them; like body language.

Call me a pessimist or a defeatist, but at the end of the day we all have limitations that cannot be overcome and the only thing we can do is learn to live with them.



AR15000
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25 Jan 2016, 5:01 pm

wilburforce wrote:


The idea that we can't learn social skills is self-defeating. It's not about "accepting a simple truth", it's about understanding how autism works and how it doesn't, so as best to live with it in a world in which autistic minds are a small minority in a largely NT world. Misunderstanding one's own deficits and strengths will not help in that regard.

Realistically, we may have some social challenges, but we can use our cognitive abilities to mitigate some of those challenges. It does take work and effort, but everything worth doing in life does. We do have the choice not to work on our social challenges if we don't want to, but we have to understand that-- living in a social world and being members of a social species--if we choose not to work on our social deficits those deficits are going to contribute to social isolation. If social isolation is not your goal, then you need to be willing to work at those social challenges. The human brain (even the autistic brain) is very plastic and never stops changing throughout our lives because of our changing circumstances and experiences--we can learn to harness this power to our favour rather than our detriment, if we have the will to do so.



Speak for yourself. And if you want to be left along stop posting ITT.

There IS a difference between learning how to do something, and learning how to do it WELL ENOUGH to put it to use. Most people for example can learn how to play a musical instrument, but not everyone who does can play well enough to get paid to do it. You might be able to teach math to someone with Down's syndrome, but to expect them to be good enough at it to pass the SAT math section....Or better yet get a college degree in math, is just not effing realistic.


What bothers me is that you are imposing unrealistic expectations of Aspies and then will blame them for social clumsiness by accusing them of not putting enough effort.



androbot01
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25 Jan 2016, 5:12 pm

wilburforce wrote:
...We do have the choice not to work on our social challenges if we don't want to, but we have to understand that-- living in a social world and being members of a social species--if we choose not to work on our social deficits those deficits are going to contribute to social isolation. If social isolation is not your goal, then you need to be willing to work at those social challenges. The human brain (even the autistic brain) is very plastic and never stops changing throughout our lives because of our changing circumstances and experiences--we can learn to harness this power to our favour rather than our detriment, if we have the will to do so.


I disagree that one has a choice to achieve breakthroughs in "social deficits."
"...if we have the will to do so." suggests that those who do not overcome their deficits are lacking in will and I think that is victim blaming.

AR15000 wrote:
What bothers me is that you are imposing unrealistic expectations of Aspies and then will blame them for social clumsiness by accusing them of not putting enough effort.

I agree. I recently had a reappearance of my "residual autism" and my psychiatrist was irritated with me. He prescribed social interaction ... as much as possible. It's so patronizing. I have been learning socialization my whole life, but I've never become not autistic.



Yigeren
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25 Jan 2016, 5:21 pm

I myself have managed to learn some social skills, but I don't think they ever really feel natural to me. I don't ever really know if what I'm doing is correct, either. And there are some things I know I can't learn. But I'm still going to try.

It's up to each individual how much effort he or she is willing to put into socializing. For some, it may not seem worth it. And other people may just have more difficulty because they have more severe social deficits.

Since socializing doesn't come naturally, anything learned is really just a workaround or a "trick" that NTs don't usually have to use.

The part about the brain being plastic is correct, however. There are studies now being done to see how certain therapies and exercises may change the way the autistic brain works. They're using fMRI to view any changes. The study has been going on for several years. It will be interesting to see the results.



wilburforce
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25 Jan 2016, 5:25 pm

AR15000 wrote:
wilburforce wrote:


The idea that we can't learn social skills is self-defeating. It's not about "accepting a simple truth", it's about understanding how autism works and how it doesn't, so as best to live with it in a world in which autistic minds are a small minority in a largely NT world. Misunderstanding one's own deficits and strengths will not help in that regard.

Realistically, we may have some social challenges, but we can use our cognitive abilities to mitigate some of those challenges. It does take work and effort, but everything worth doing in life does. We do have the choice not to work on our social challenges if we don't want to, but we have to understand that-- living in a social world and being members of a social species--if we choose not to work on our social deficits those deficits are going to contribute to social isolation. If social isolation is not your goal, then you need to be willing to work at those social challenges. The human brain (even the autistic brain) is very plastic and never stops changing throughout our lives because of our changing circumstances and experiences--we can learn to harness this power to our favour rather than our detriment, if we have the will to do so.



Speak for yourself. And if you want to be left along stop posting ITT.

There IS a difference between learning how to do something, and learning how to do it WELL ENOUGH to put it to use. Most people for example can learn how to play a musical instrument, but not everyone who does can play well enough to get paid to do it. You might be able to teach math to someone with Down's syndrome, but to expect them to be good enough at it to pass the SAT math section....Or better yet get a college degree in math, is just not effing realistic.


What bothers me is that you are imposing unrealistic expectations of Aspies and then will blame them for social clumsiness by accusing them of not putting enough effort.


I only wish to be left alone by the user I addressed directly, not everyone.

I realise we will never have the social fluidity that neurotypicals do. That isn't the point of what I said. I just meant that, with some applied effort, it is possible to learn some social skills that we might not have picked up intuitively like neurotypicals do. We will always be autistic and will always experience difficulties because of that, but we don't always have to have the same level of difficulty with social situations that we start out with. This isn't about blame, it's just about recognising where we struggle and making efforts where possible to mitigate some of those struggles.



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25 Jan 2016, 5:30 pm

it all reminds me of that thing about how those of us with Prosopagnosia lack the brain part that specializes in facial recognition and that we must make do with the general object recognition module instead, with clumsy results. the social module is missing so other less well-suited parts of the brain must pick up the slack, albeit imperfectly.



Yigeren
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25 Jan 2016, 5:58 pm

The problem is that no one really even understands the way the brain works when it comes to these things. So much is just educated guesses. They know a little bit about why people are autistic, but there's so much more that needs to be discovered.

They don't even yet understand what causes people to have autism. Genetics seems to be a factor, and possibly paternal age.

Many things we now know concerning autism could be completely proven wrong in a decade or so.

So all we can do is try based upon our understanding and figure out ways to work around our deficits.



auntblabby
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25 Jan 2016, 6:11 pm

I read that at least part of autism/a part of some autistic people, is the result of a brain that has not pruned its neural connections properly, resulting in an excess of the wrong neural connections, a musclebound brain in a sense, lacking in tone with a traffic jam of neural connections- a brain that gets in its own way. sometimes I feel like I have gotten lost or stuck in place in my brain.



Yigeren
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25 Jan 2016, 6:18 pm

Yes, I have also read that. I think I feel that way, too. I've read other theories, but can't remember them at the moment.



dcj123
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25 Jan 2016, 6:18 pm

Anything can be learned with patience,

What you mean to say is social skills are not natural to aspies, someone with autism can learn anything that an NT can learn. Its just things that come natural to NTs don't to us. Nothing about autism impairs the ability to learn.



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25 Jan 2016, 6:28 pm

perhaps not for some folk, but at least for me it sure has slowed many things down. :|



xile123
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25 Jan 2016, 8:18 pm

Fnord wrote:
For the millionth time: Social skills can be learned; but only if you never give up trying.


Only up to a point tbh...and that's if you're mildly autistic.