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devunea
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16 May 2007, 7:29 pm

Sopho wrote:
Neither do I, I have no problem with people getting married, I just don't see why they should be given extra rights/financial incentives to do so.


my bf's company is very forward in their thinking. they give gay couples the same respect, labeling them as "domestic partners." I am eligible for benefits with his company and we are in a heterosexual relationship. but austin is very much like this.
it is nice though, not to have to give into the institution of marriage to prove you have the same needs and legal rights as any other partners share. and you do not need the jp to prove it.


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geek
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16 May 2007, 8:07 pm

JakeG wrote:
I don't see the problem with them to be honest.


I think the only problem most people have isn't with the idea of marriage so much as with the way it was made a function of government. If governments want to mediate in divorces to make sure that nobody gets shafted, fine, but I don't think they have any business regulating marriage.



calandale
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16 May 2007, 11:16 pm

geek wrote:
I think the only problem most people have isn't with the idea of marriage so much as with the way it was made a function of government. If governments want to mediate in divorces to make sure that nobody gets shafted, fine, but I don't think they have any business regulating marriage.


It essentially IS a function of the state though.
Mistakenly so - I think. The damned things should
just be given NO status legally.



JakeG
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17 May 2007, 8:39 am

calandale wrote:
geek wrote:
I think the only problem most people have isn't with the idea of marriage so much as with the way it was made a function of government. If governments want to mediate in divorces to make sure that nobody gets shafted, fine, but I don't think they have any business regulating marriage.


It essentially IS a function of the state though.
Mistakenly so - I think. The damned things should
just be given NO status legally.


But legal status is the whole point; to create one legal entity just like two plumbers etc. sign a partnership deal so that there business is one legal entity.



calandale
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17 May 2007, 9:10 am

If they must, then the can of worms should
be tackled. There is nothing preventing
FOUR plumbers from forming a partnership.
Why impose arbitrary mores on the concept
of what kinds of partnerships can be formed
as a 'marriage'? Why not simply allow the same
business rules to apply - perhaps with pre-formed
contracts? Why give it this whole special status,
AND link it to something which has religious
significance?



Sopho
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17 May 2007, 9:29 am

calandale wrote:
If they must, then the can of worms should
be tackled. There is nothing preventing
FOUR plumbers from forming a partnership.
Why impose arbitrary mores on the concept
of what kinds of partnerships can be formed
as a 'marriage'? Why not simply allow the same
business rules to apply - perhaps with pre-formed
contracts? Why give it this whole special status,
AND link it to something which has religious
significance?

I agree with all of that. I see marriage as more similar to a business contract than anything anyway, so it should reflect that in the way that it is set up and in who should be able to enter this kind of partnership. I see no reason why four people cannot all get married, so long as each of them is aware of the other three involved.



Mitch8817
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17 May 2007, 9:31 am

Marriage entails obligations and duties - relationships should really have the freedom to define themselves. It's so medieval.


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JakeG
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17 May 2007, 4:01 pm

calandale wrote:
If they must, then the can of worms should
be tackled. There is nothing preventing
FOUR plumbers from forming a partnership.
Why impose arbitrary mores on the concept
of what kinds of partnerships can be formed
as a 'marriage'? Why not simply allow the same
business rules to apply - perhaps with pre-formed
contracts? Why give it this whole special status,
AND link it to something which has religious
significance?



Well in the UK, it isn't a religeous event unless you specifically choose for it to be one. Most people get married in a town hall registry office and the standard service doesn't mention god or religeon or anything like that.



kyethra
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20 May 2007, 12:42 pm

Marriage is a tradition, for one thing. People like their traditions. Plus it allows the couple a positive framework for thinking about and planning their lives ahead and how to make the relationship work. Not to mention that there are numerous legal and financial benefits. My husband and I like being married. Its also secure. You can't just break up or anything like that, for one thing. Of course I think a lot of people are rather silly about not allowing certain things. Why not allow gay marriage? I don't think marriage should have anything to do with gender. And let people adopt. And I'm all for legalizing polygammy if thats what makes those people happy. I once read an article that I thought was interesting. The article advocated having marriage certificates that expired after a certain number of years. You start out with a one year certificate. Then maybe do a three year one, then a five, etc. No more divorce that way, just go your separate ways when the certificate expires. No one in my family has ever gotten divorced, but I do know people who have been divorced and I guess the rate is pretty high, but its not as high as it used to be. Everyone wants to be married forever.



ZanneMarie
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20 May 2007, 2:02 pm

It's just a nonsense thing so the government can stick their nose in your personal lives. It's left over from agrarian times so that the man was somewhat assured his heir was actually his. We'd be better off sticking to pre-domestic partnership contracts and let it go through the courts like any partnership dissolution. Actually, by law it has nothing to do with religion, although religious folks like to think it does. It's simple a domestic partnership contract pre-determined by the government that does not really suit most current marriages and their dynamics. It doesn't protect you from anything. Your spouse can cheat and they can walk away with all the money before breaking up with you. They could take everything and sell it, then walk off with the money. In order to get anything enforced, you have to file with the court, then they have a hearing to decide what's what. It's still just a civil finding and they can counter sue forever if they want.


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calandale
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20 May 2007, 8:05 pm

JakeG wrote:
Well in the UK, it isn't a religeous event unless you specifically choose for it to be one. Most people get married in a town hall registry office and the standard service doesn't mention god or religeon or anything like that.


Same in the US. Still, all sorts of concepts of what
is a morally correct marriage come into play. Thus,
one can't marry someone of their gender (in most
states), nor can one participate in marriage with
multiple partners, nor can one do so with a close
relative, nor be in multiple such arrangements at
once. In some cases, there might be reasons, but
for the most part these can be resolved in the same
manner as business partnerships, which allow for all
of these situations.



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20 May 2007, 10:49 pm

Kosmonaut wrote:
unless you have religious beliefs, then i dont see the point either.


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Mandelbrot
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23 May 2007, 7:55 am

You are clearly not a sociologist or a historian Sopho.

Marriage is the work horse of the family and the family is the foundation of society, the primary socialiser. Indeed, a statement of such commitment or even the idea of it is structures to maintain a value system needed as a basis for teaching cooperation, compromise and responsibility to others to the next generation.
A simple partnership does not teach these things to the same degree as is needed in most cases to maintain the value consensus within society, this then cause’s degradation.

Honestly people- its just common sense. I'm not religious at all, but humans like many other mammals need reliable packs and marriage for humans ensure this. Just getting together where someone else is much more free (and likely)to 'run-off' does not ensure such responsibility or stability and neither does it teach it.
A marriage is a social obligation that is enforced by the norms of society also, whereas 'cheating' in a partnership is not so much looked down upon.

Marriage itself as a concept may have different implications when taken into cultural, religious or historical context - but regardless of these, it is still an effective model of encouraging social cohesion.



Last edited by Mandelbrot on 23 May 2007, 8:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

Sopho
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23 May 2007, 7:59 am

Mandelbrot wrote:
You are clearly not a sociologist or a historian Sopho.

I am actually. I'm not stupid. I understand why marriage has existed throughout history. The point I was trying to make was about the way marriage is TODAY. Why do we have this BS now.
You clearly do not know what the hell you are talking about. a**hole.



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23 May 2007, 8:02 am

Actually there were more years of having multiple wives than years having just one and even in those times some religions still subscribe(d) to multiple wives. That's why history and society as some kind of concrete guideline is ridiculous and never holds up. Legally, it is a civil domestic partnership and nothing more. What's more, legally it never was anything more than that. It's a way to set up property rights and inheritence and that's it. It's the people outside the legal system who want to muddle it all up with the made up ideas of what it should be. The whole thing, including the legal view is nothing more than a manmade construct - in other words, it's all made up and has no intrinsic value at all.


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23 May 2007, 8:26 am

The idea that is simply a natural connection is false. Very few mammals stick with the same partner for life. There is actually a natural urge to do the opposite. Sociologist and psychologists have studies this. Bonobos are closest to humans genetically.

wiki wrote:
Sexual activity happens within the immediate family as well as outside it, and often involves adults and children, even infants.[11] Bonobos do not form permanent relationships with individual partners. They also do not seem to discriminate in their sexual behavior by gender or age, with the possible exception of sexual intercourse between mothers and their adult sons; some observers believe these pairings are taboo. When Bonobos come upon a new food source or feeding ground, the increased excitement will usually lead to communal sexual activity, presumably decreasing tension and allowing for peaceful feeding


No doubt we are different. We no longer live in troops or small territorial groups or at least there are not many groups left that live that way nowadays. We have embraced the concept of civilization. We can go against the grain of our natural intincts, but to say it is not there is just wrong.