Games or are they...?

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The more you genuinely care about someone, the easier it is to keep that up. If you don't really value the person, it's going to be difficult. If it's all about sex or how good you look with a gf, you'll burn out eventually. Or worse, you'll try to change the person you're with to suit what you want instead of being what the other person wants.

Sure. But men also get accused of being desperate and manipulative when they assertively disagree. We're labeled abusers if we dare make a stand for something important or possessive if we try to keep the boundaries of our relationship secure.

But, honestly, the strongest relationships are like that. Building trust and security is an ongoing lifelong effort, so we all have to have the power to assert ourselves, say no, and respect our SO regardless of the situation. My SO asked if I'd be ok with her meeting up with her former boss after he in effect asked her for a date. Of course I'm not ok with that! I'm fortunate to be in the kind of relationship where I can refuse something and not get punished for it. I don't know many women who regard their SO in that way.

BTW, this is the kind of disagreement you really only get with a LTR after you are totally committed to each other and agree ahead of time how certain situations will be handled. You can't really get this in the early stages when you're still only getting to know each other.

But as far as pretending interest to get the girl goes, it's an effective tactic. Not just for romantic relationships but for making friends overall. You don't even have to hide that you're doing it. You just have to remember that to be attractive to someone, you have to build them up and make them feel important. People flee negativity like a plague. People dislike haters and complainers and whiners. So even if you really do have a bad attitude, you do better to hide it and keep a smile on your face.

Keeping the focus on the other person and her interests is key. Once it becomes about you, you've lost. Why? Because everyone is selfish. They don't care about you, only what they can get out of you. So if you actually care about someone, there's going to be some fakery involved because you're going to put their needs and interests ahead of your own. The more you genuinely care about someone, the easier it is to keep that up. If you don't really value the person, it's going to be difficult. If it's all about sex or how good you look with a gf, you'll burn out eventually. Or worse, you'll try to change the person you're with to suit what you want instead of being what the other person wants.

Of course, you can point out that just enables the other's selfishness and doesn't really get you anything in return. The idea is that in the end everyone looks after each other in a way that is mutually beneficial. You have to focus strictly on the other's interests. Well, if he or she is interested in you, why not talk about yourself? If the other really wants to do something you like, why not indulge them? It works both ways. But starting out, no, there's always going to be a lot of pretending because you want to get to know your date, build them up, make them feel special.

Some people might see that as manipulative. I just fail to see what's wrong with caring about someone else.

I don't see how pretending to be interested in something is a good way to show you care about someone. Why do you have to seek out a female with interests you don't like or think are boring and who likes activities you hate to 'fake' you like them in order to convince her you care. And you really don't think if she starts to realize you don't really know anything about some important interest or hobby/activity of hers and in fact you aren't even slightly interested and have just been pretending she might be a little bit irritated. Especially if she's been looking for someone who perhaps shares that interest or at least could develop interest in it.

It doesn't matter how you feel. It's all about how HE feels, or how SHE feels. Wealthy and powerful people have a HABIT of doing this, lifting up others and making them feel important. Nobody attains wealth and authority alone. And if it makes some gifted people rich and famous, using it to solidify a romantic relationship should be a no-brainer.

It's effective, that's why.

It's effective because everyone, without exception, is motivated by self-interest. Learning to exploit human greed and selfishness is the key to winning friends (and lovers). Even Jesus made note of this. And even Jesus was quoting the OT. And you find the idea of reciprocity in virtually every single culture, religion, society, and philosophy across millennia of recorded human history.

Everyone wants to feel important. When you act interested in someone else, they feel important. When you help someone with something, they feel important. When you remember names, birthdays, special occasions, they feel important. When you ask someone about something they care about, they feel important. When you engage in an activity that someone enjoys, especially at your own expense, they feel important. Giving gifts, although that one's tricky, makes people feel important. Sexual gratification REALLY makes people feel important, but that's it's own topic.

The more you make people feel important, the more they want to be with you. To a large degree, it's mostly fake.

Where it ISN'T fake is when you have a genuine interest in other people. You do things out of a concern for other people. The fake part is WHAT you do. The WHAT doesn't matter so much as the WHY. That's why I have no problem faking an interest in bowling (the what) because of how highly I value time with someone (the why). When you show that you value people, they take notice.

When they take notice, you become interesting. They value your presence, your feedback, your opinion, etc. because it makes them feel (what?) IMPORTANT. And because they want you around, they will come out if the woodwork to build you up and make you feel important. Some will even be willing to die for you.

Matthew 7:12 says "Therefore, whatever you want others to do for you, do also the same for them — this is the Law and the Prophets."

Leviticus 19:18--“Do not take revenge or bear a grudge against members of your community, but love your neighbor as yourself; I am Yahweh.”

And again, Leviticus 19:34--“You must regard the foreigner who lives with you as the native-born among you. You are to love him as yourself, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt; I am Yahweh your God.”

Therefore, if you want to be interesting, BE INTERESTED, If you want to be loved, LOVE. If you need help, then HELP. If you want to be famous, sing the praises of others. If you want to be important to someone, make that person important.

It doesn't matter how you feel. It's all about how HE feels, or how SHE feels. Wealthy and powerful people have a HABIT of doing this, lifting up others and making them feel important. Nobody attains wealth and authority alone. And if it makes some gifted people rich and famous, using it to solidify a romantic relationship should be a no-brainer.

Donald Rump [sic] would disagree here. He hasn't done squat to lift others up, just himself.

That said... people I have the most positive memories about are the ones who made feel like the alpha-est guy out there, despite me being a lowly beta. That goes for both men and women. Such as the three women I met on a cruise, who danced in a four-way cuddle with me, for reasons none other than they thought I was cool, and they were drunk and wanted to dance. Or the group of guys on another cruise, who invited me to join them in the swimming pool for a game of Mafia, because they needed a player, and inviting a man by himself seemed a nice gesture. All of these people were clearly way cooler than me, and yet, they made me feel like an equal. If that's not "lifting up", nothing is.

I think it matters how both people feel, and it doesn't make sense to seek out people you have nothing in common with. I guess it makes more sense to me to seek out people you have things like interests in common with so you both genuinely enjoy some similar things instead of having to take turns faking interest. For instance if you don't have any interest in bowling why would you seek out women who love bowling? over women who share one of the interests you actually have? I just couldn't see being interested in someone if they don't like any of the things I like.

It's effective because everyone, without exception, is motivated by self-interest. Learning to exploit human greed and selfishness is the key to winning friends (and lovers). Even Jesus made note of this. And even Jesus was quoting the OT. And you find the idea of reciprocity in virtually every single culture, religion, society, and philosophy across millennia of recorded human history.

Everyone wants to feel important. When you act interested in someone else, they feel important. When you help someone with something, they feel important. When you remember names, birthdays, special occasions, they feel important. When you ask someone about something they care about, they feel important. When you engage in an activity that someone enjoys, especially at your own expense, they feel important. Giving gifts, although that one's tricky, makes people feel important. Sexual gratification REALLY makes people feel important, but that's it's own topic.

The more you make people feel important, the more they want to be with you. To a large degree, it's mostly fake.

Where it ISN'T fake is when you have a genuine interest in other people. You do things out of a concern for other people. The fake part is WHAT you do. The WHAT doesn't matter so much as the WHY. That's why I have no problem faking an interest in bowling (the what) because of how highly I value time with someone (the why). When you show that you value people, they take notice.

When they take notice, you become interesting. They value your presence, your feedback, your opinion, etc. because it makes them feel (what?) IMPORTANT. And because they want you around, they will come out if the woodwork to build you up and make you feel important. Some will even be willing to die for you.

I don't think you have to pretend to agree or like something to show that you care about someone. There are other ways to do that like being supportive of them when they have a problem, give them gifts, show affection ect. I don't feel like pretending to be interested in something means that they actually care either. There was a guy that would agree with just about everything that I said and would constantly give me compliments, but they did it so much it seemed insincere and later I found out that it was true that they didn't care that much. I think they may have just been really lonely and didn't actually want to be with me. It didn't make me feel more attracted to them either and can actually be a turn off. I think it's deceptive because they aren't showing how they really feel. It would be hard to relate to someone and I wouldn't want to be with someone who I couldn't relate to. I don't really like fakeness and games and would want something more natural.

I also don't understand feeling important. I would want someone to genuinely care and have a close bond, but I wouldn't want to be worshiped.

Yeah I think this is mentioned in Dale Carnegie's book is the importance of getting the other person talking and ask them questions. People absolutely love to talk about themselves, if you get them to talk about themselves they'll remember you, even though THEY were the ones doing all the talking for the most part.

Lemme see if this helps you understand. Answer these questions for me, if you will:
Why do you want someone to genuinely care?
Why do you want a close bond?
Why do you want someone to be supportive?
Why do you want someone to listen to your problems?
Why do you want gifts?
Why do you want affection?

If they give me gifts then it can show that they care. Affection would feel nice. If someone genuinely cares, is supportive, listens and has a close bond then it means that I would be more likely to trust them. I wouldn't want to be worshiped or anything though. I would like it to be mutual. I want to be important to them, but I would like to do the same things in return. Sometimes when I here about a guys problems it actually causes me to feel attracted to them.

"Affection would feel nice."
"Sometimes...it actually causes me to feel attracted..."

I don't want to dwell on this aspect in this subforum, but would it be fair to say that the above responses are at least in part sexual in nature?

Yes, but it doesn't really involve being fake, if that's what you mean.